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rrmoderator
Moishe3rd:
I am not attempting to convert you and/or anyone else.
Believe whatever you wish.
Preaching is prohibited by the rules of the message board, which you read and agreed to before posting here.
I understand.
My purpose is the defense of what I consider blatantly false charges against people and organizations that are trying to accomplish good and decent goals. I really don't care what people "believe" unless your (or anyone else's) belief system is your rational for attempting to invalidate someone else's belief system.
If a person claims that Judaism is a crock and G-d does not exist - fine; you should live and be well.
However, if a person uses this Belief System of theirs to try and slander or defame those who do believe differently, then it seems logical to state that they are filtering the world through their particular system of belief.
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FYI -- Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews don't attempt to convert Orthodox or Chasidic Jews to their denomination of Judaism.
I would humbly submit that the constant denigration of Torah observant Judaism by those who are Reform, Conservative, or whatever, is an attack on the validity of Orthodox Judaism and an attempt to convert people to their non-Orthodox point of view. These kind of attacks (of which I consider the letter of the mother that you posted) are frequent and ubiquitous in the non-Torah observant world.
I would humbly submit that most of the posters in this thread are entirely about this kind of attack.
I would also humbly submit that your comparison of inviting someone for a Shabbos meal to the Moonies is a version of this kind of attack, albeit probably based upon ignorance.
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And until groups like Aish and Chabad began proselytizing it was unheard of amongst Jews.
Without a knowledge of Judaism, I do not believe that you are able to understand what you believe. It is simply not true.
The Avraham Avinu snippet that I posted above? He invited people into his tent for a meal specifically, categorically, emphatically, so that he could tell them about the One, True G-d. Jews consider that the model to follow and have done so for the last 3,000 plus years. As Arabs also consider themselves Abraham's children, this has also been a cultic, ritual practice amongst Arabs and Muslims.
Jews have been proselytizing Jews for over 3,000 years. It's rather plainly and emphatically written in what we call the Torah, and what you might know of as the bible.
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What you seem to be saying here is that because God is supposedly on your side the "ends justify the means."
This is pretty much what most cults would typically say to rationalize whatever they practices they wish to do.
Not at all. I don't believe that and I did not imply that.
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Aish, Seidel and Chabad have hurt Jewish families by recruiting people and this frequently has led to turning them against their families over a period of time.
In your world, "recruiting" is a pejorative term that means trying to trick someone into doing something that they would not normally do.
This is not what any of the above do.
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This has included encouraging harsh criticism of families and old freinds if they won't embrace ultra-Orthodox practices.
You would have to give me specific examples of what you mean by the above. I, nor anyone I know (which includes many Chabad rabbis; rabbis who invite people to Shabbos meals for the purpose of introducing non-observant Jews to Torah true Judaism; and rabbis from Aish who are actually paid to do outreach) has ever "encouraged harsh criticism of families and old friends if they won't embrace ultra-Orthodox practices."
As a matter of fact - precisely the exact opposite is true. People who are interested in becoming observant are encouraged to go slow and not alienate their friends and families.
Your charge is like something out of the Twilight Zone.
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Aish and Chabad have also often isolated new recruits in their schools and/or communities with little time or consideration for their non-Orthodox families.
No, they haven't
I am quite sure, however, that some individuals, because of hostility from their non-Orthodox friends and family, have certainly isolated themselves or asked their rabbis if they think its good idea to go and live with their hostile non-Orthodox family (of whose food they cannot eat; who despise what the newly observant Jew considers various Commandments from G-d that are absolutely required to participate in every single day and moment...) and their rabbi has certainly advised it would be better not to until they are strong enough in their commitment to not give in to the obvious hostility and condemnation.
Which, by all appearances, is probably what happened with the son of the mother in the letter you posted.
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There are also arranged marriages and the general disruption of any previous relationships, friendships and/or goals of the individuals they have recruited.
Arranged marriages? Now that's quite a feat. I've been trying to "arrange a marriage" for my daughter for a year or so. Do tell me how they do it.
:?
Please cite some concrete example of this "arranged marriage" that you are touting. It doesn't exist in the pejorative manner in which you seem to indicate.
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Young people that have come to Israel for what was to be a relatively brief vacation trip, as a result of recruitment, have not returned home for years.
100% correct.
Some of them are even princes in Africa (look it up - it's a nice story).
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"Bait and switch" is an old ploy often used by con men and salesmen.
This means baiting someone with something appealing (e.g. a free dinner) and then switching to something else (e.g. a hidden recruitment agenda).
Seidel invites people to dinner, but his real purpose is to recruit anyone he can for Aish and other ultra-Orthodox Jewish groups. He doesn't say this to the potential targeted recruit at the very begining.
Instead of just saying, "Would you like to come to a nice Shabbos dinner?"
Seidel should say, "Hi I am an Orthodox Jew. Would you like to become an Orthodox Jew?"
And then he might offer, "The Orthodox community has special Shabbos dinners for the purpose of introducing Jews like you to Orthodox Judaism. It's our hope that this will be the first step to becoming an Orthodox Jew."
This would be an honest approach.
However, Seidel apparently thinks he would not get many people to come if he used such an honest aproach explaining explicitly his intentions and actual agenda.
So he plays "bait and switch."
Again, this is incorrect.
I, nor anyone I know, has ever invited a non-observant Jew, whom we sincerely hope might be interested in becoming an observant Jew, by saying to them:
"Hi I am an Orthodox Jew. Would you like to become an Orthodox Jew?"
"The Orthodox community has special Shabbos dinners for the purpose of introducing Jews like you to Orthodox Judaism. It's our hope that this will be the first step to becoming an Orthodox Jew."
No, what we do is say - "We'd like to invite you for a Shabbos meal."
And most people say no. Because, well you know, Shabbos, that's the weird thing that Orthodox Jews do...
As do, I am quite sure, the majority of people that Jeff Seidel invites.
And some people say yes, and they come and they think it is all decidedly weird or complicated or incomprehensible or they are just not interested and we never see them again.
Which, I am sure, is what happens to most people that Jeff Seidel invites.
And, some people come and find it mildly interesting and they continue to stop by or learn a little or something over the years.
Which is what happens to some people Jeff Seidel invites.
And, some people really get turned on and pursue it.
Which is what happens to a tiny minority that Jeff Seidel invites.
And, of that tiny minority, most of these people have family and friends who believe that they have just gone stark raving bonkers because they are suddenly inspired to start learning Torah full time and they start wearing a beard or black hat or tzitzits (fringes) or speaking Hebrew or Yiddish and consult with rabbis about everything and completely change their lives from what they were before.
And, that ticks off their family and their friends and they conclude that the only possible way that someone could have changed their lives so radically is that someone "forced them to do it through brainwashing them."
Which, is, of course, untrue.
People actually do become inspired to change their lives when they discover something they feel is the Truth.
And, if your nefarious agenda were actually accurate, which would mean that Jeff Seidel and the others you mention were, indeed, callous human beings whose only concern was to suck people into their "cult," then why are they only picking on the tiny handful of Jews that come their way?
What about the other 99.9999% of the world?
If their motives were as you say?