The question posed here is, “Why are these kiruv (Jewish outreach organizations) successful?” Basically the answer lies in the problems inherent in the current day and age’s culture. In the old days, very few Jews had drinking problems. Jews didn’t beat their wives or use drugs and the family unit was cohesive. Children respected their elders and the culture of the Jewish tradition passed down wholesome values, scholarship and success were upheld as important.
We live in a day and age of dubious values. People honor television and movie stars, rock and roll musicians, and athletes. Gone are the values we had in the past respecting hard work and learning. So in step the religious leaders from the orthodoxy or even the ultra-orthodoxy to pick up where the parent have failed their children in fostering time honored and tested values and lifestyles that were promoted in the past.
One of the problems is that parents don’t have a worked out theory as to what they believe in when it comes to religion many times. Some people have never thought out if they believe the Torah is divine in origin or man made. Personally, I am not a believer in the divinity of the Bible and as such I would approach my children telling them that they are simply not right from the beginning.
To my way of thinking the Torah is unscientific and has stories that are mythological in origin and not based in fact. That is the only way to arm yourself when a child comes home to you or doesn’t come home perhaps, and tries to get you to change your whole lifestyle.
The rabbis come from a long tradition and it’s often hard to make yourself look good compared to them. Many times, these people are getting paid on the kollel (a kollel is a yeshiva institution to fund professional Jewish scholars of the Torah) or have benefits in Israel to study the Torah and don’t have to work as most American Jews do with non-Jews and in a mixed setting.
One of the biggest problems may be the pop culture that the parents are involved in. Good music and art, the furtherance of science and technology are the best things you can be involved in. If you are lacking in this regard, your children may take you to task on it.
Tough love may be your best option. In fact, it’s the best path as far as I can tell. I overheard one rabbi at Chabad Lubavitch telling someone involved in the movement that they wanted her father’s money but not his input. I say to tell these people it’s a package deal. If you don’t like me, my money isn’t yours either.
I get mail from Jewish organizations all the time, many based in Israel. But my experience is that they don’t want to help me. They just want me to help them. I’m fed up with this arrangement. Life is a two-way street.

Do you really think that the ultra-Orthodox "ourtreach" organizations are that successful?

It seems that though they may cause some Jewish families painful estrangements through their recruitment and retention practices, that they are mostly unsuccessful.

It also appears that the general ultra-Orthodox effort to recruit other Jews into its ranks, is actually more of a response to their shrinking importance and power within the context of more modern Judaism and Jewish interests.

Reform Judaism is now the largest single denomination of Jews. And many Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Jews drop out.

The attrition rate may be greater than any the results of their recruitment efforts and possibly even the high birth rate they encourage.

And given essentially a choice between Orthodox Judaism or nothing in Israel, most Israelis have opted for nothing.

The affiliation rate amongst Jews is higher in the US than in Israel and the overwhelming majority of American Jews are not Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox.

The Lubavitch chasidic sect is actually a relatively small group of Jews, less than 100,00, perhaps as few as 50,000, according to some estimates.

Moderator, I am shocked by what you write.

I would expect you to be more objective and careful in your handling of information and relating to a population of millions of people not as one unit of wrongdoing.

I truely hope you post this:
recruitment is not the right word here, but let us go with it.
Only 4 types of orthodox Jews are invlved in recruitment at all. Of these, the largest group is that of Litaim, non chassidic Orthodox. Others are: Chabad, Belz (in a limited way) and Jews that have become Orthodox and therefore suggest to others that directions.
Considering that not all Litaim are envolved with recruitment at all, these account for a small percentage of Orthodox Jews anyhow. The fact is, most Orthodox Jews, the vast majority, are not interested at all in recruitment.

As to your comment:
"It also appears that the general ultra-Orthodox effort to recruit other Jews into its ranks, is actually more of a response to their shrinking importance and power within the context of more modern Judaism and Jewish interests".
Truely, where do you take this from? If anything, the power of Orthodox Jews has increased in recent years as they have learnt to use their political unity for purposes of forming a political voting power that is very attractive to politicians.

Your statement: "And many Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Jews drop out. "
is unclear (what is many?) but also wrong. Orthodox population is constantly growing as a result of them having large families (which only strengthens them as a group, by the way). And drop outs are rare at most.

What you write: "And given essentially a choice between Orthodox Judaism or nothing in Israel, most Israelis have opted for nothing. " Is a distortion, I am sorry to say.
1st, this is a choice set in front of no one. Most Jews in Israel have no relation or knowledge about Orthodox Judaism and most Orthodox Jews have no interest in non-orthodox Jews becoming religious.

As someone who fights cults, I would expect you to at least acknowledge, if not praise, that this religious group known as Orthodox Jews has mostly refrained from attempting recuitment throught history, and should serve as a model of how one should live his beliefs without forcing them upon others.

Yet what I see is you writing about them as if they would be a large, rather unsuccessful cult.

I'm sorry to say this, but maybe you should check your motives.

Jaim:

Nothing shocking here.

My comments reflect regular complaints that I receive from Jewish families regarding Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox recruitment practices.

It's sad, but true.

Aish Ha Torah and the Chabad are the worst, but there seems to be a rather broad network that supports this sort of thing, which has frequently led to families being hurt.

It is true that histoircally this was not done before, but that has apparently changed.

And though Reform and Conservative Judaism have not and do not target Orthodox Jews in the same way for recruitment, Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox groups have nevertheless targeted Reform and Conservative Jews.

Rick,
You were quite correct to tell me that the kiruv organizations are essentially flops. It’s true.
On one video that I had of Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach, Shlomo said that “If they get 100 people to listen to an outreach worker and 2 remain Jewish, the kiruv organizations consider it a success.”
Shlomo went on the decry “professional outreach.” He said, “Have you ever heard of someone being called a professional husband, wife or parent?” Shlomo claimed that if you do outreach you have to do it with all your heart and your heart has to ache for every Jew who doesn’t keep Shabbos.
Shlomo hated the term outreach – he used the term in-reach - and he also didn’t like the term Baal Teshuva. His reasoning was as follows. Shlomo claimed that all he wanted to do was to put people in touch with their innermost being.
When I was at Moshav Modi’in and when I was involved with Shlomo he never pushed me around. Other people on the Moshav did annoy me. Shlomo used to call me “Reuven the Holy Weightlifter”.
One person came up to me and said, “You don’t want to help us, do you?” when I couldn’t handle coming to yet another Shabbat service and I was lying in my room, dead tired from exhaustion as per going to a shul 4 times a day on the Sabbath. I felt that I was dealing with an idiot.
As I mentioned the term Baal Teshuva also rubbed him wrong. He said it seemed to promote the idea that people were doing something wrong and that now they were repentant and trying to turn their lives around. Shlomo claimed that all he was trying to do was put people in touch with their innermost being to bring out the divine spark (the so-called pintel yid) in every Jewish soul.
I confronted him once and he told me that he just does his thing and he hoped that people would follow him. He never laid any kind of trip on me at all.
You have to understand something about Shlomo – he was an extremely successful composer and he made a lot of money at it. Money, which he gave most of away. He really didn’t need to become the hippie rabbi or be an itinerant preacher. A lot of people had a hard time with him because he told all those really wild Chasidic tales and he was very spacey. It was difficult being associated with him because of his deviation from the normal way of orthodox life and thought.
The orthodox Jewish establishment treated Shlomo very well in his youth and as soon as his considerable intellectual gifts became apparent early on in his life and studies he was taken up by the crème de la crème of the yeshiva world. My take on him was that he wanted to share the love and respect that was shown to him with the rest of the world.
He got into Lakewood Yeshiva at the age of 15, he was a ben bayit (he was living with an upscale Jewish family who hosted him while he was at Lakewood) and he was groomed by some of the very best teachers the orthodoxy had.
Shlomo always maintained that the people who came back to the orthodoxy were the heroes, not him. He said he was “born to greatness”. It is claimed that he was descended from King David and he was taken care of at birth by extraordinary leaders. He wanted to share that with others.
I never saw anything insidious about what he was trying to do and although my father had issues with him and my Carlebach/Chabad connection, I found a hero and friend in him when Jack Hickman almost succeeded in destroying me.
I had relatives that tried to get me to leave him alone. My aunt told me, “Shlomo is a big important person (and of course according to her, I am a little nebuchel - an insignificant nothing) and I should let him be.” Shlomo wanted me to associate with him and he brought me to Modi’in when Hickman screwed me over.
Shlomo also never rammed his smicha (“ordination”) anyone’s throat. Rabbi Yeshua Witt once told me that Shlomo claimed that today people just need friends not Rebbes. My aunt constantly tried to tell me that there is a “Jewish pecking order” and of course, I was low man on totem pole. I just ignored her.
How many people became orthodox because of him? I don’t know the answer to that but I can tell you that almost 13 years after his passing his influence seems to be growing as Carlebach minyanim (“prayer quorums”) are springing up all over the place.
I was in Penn Station in NYC once and I was looking at the first Shlomo Carlebach Song Book. Someone came up to me and said that he knew him too and that Shlomo’s intensity burned him out. He used to sing and dance until all hours of the morning for Friday night Kabbalat Shabbat services.
In the Bay area of CA, Shlomo’s House of Love and Prayer was located near a non-kosher restaurant called the “Doggie Diner”. Many times people would overdose on Shlomo and they’d go to the diner and Shlomo himself, jokingly, told me about it. He had a sense of humor and he also had a pretty good perspective. I knew that about him because I was very close to him for about five years.
Now, with the conflagration in Israel and with the word getting out on this site with the problems being caused by Chabad, and the yeshivas in the so-called “Baal Teshuvah” circuit, hopefully the damage these rabbis can cause will be mitigated.
Forewarned is forearmed and when we get the word out loud and clear enough, hopefully these rabbis will simply have to find honest work and leave the rest of us alone.
In New Brunswick, NJ Rabbi Bennet Miller, a Reform rabbi went to the kotel (“Western Wall”) some years back and he was confronted by the charedim (“those in awe of G-d” i.e. the ultra-orthodox) who told him that his family should have stayed in Europe during the Holocaust so that his family would have perished. In Israel, the problem is that the Reform and Conservative movements are miniscule. The Charedim actually called the Reform movement a cult.
My experience with all of this including my failed marriage through Chabad and the death threats I got from it by my aunt have shown me that Judaism is not necessarily a religion of love – there’s a lot of politics involved in the whole thing. Politics that I really want to avoid which is why I went to Christianity in the first place as a teen and why I went back to it some years ago.
Rabbi Yeshua Witt told me several times that of all the people who ever came to him, except for me all these people passed by once and never came back. I was the only repeat performance so to speak.
There is a side of my family which is Young Israel, or Modern Orthodox and that’s what I wanted to buy into originally before I went to Christianity, as they are a cohesive, successful and loving group. It was not to be.
I believe that Judaism does have wisdom and if taken in moderation (as all things should be) that it can help a person gain a perspective on life, but in excess it is not a good thing.
I was at Aish Hatorah in ’95 for several months. I’ll give them credit because their facilities are clean and the food is good. During one Shabbat meal a guy was giving a long speech and I asked the person next to me, “Who is this guy?” to which my next door neighbor replied “That’s Dr. Streimel (a streimel is a fur brimmed hat which is composed of 13 fur pelts to signify the 13 attributes of G-d’s mercy)!” Do you get what I am driving at?
Aish and Or Sameach turn out a product in contrast to what D’var Yerushalayim does. They try to groom you into a particular mold. But the grooming usually doesn’t take and thank G-d most people leave Israel.
I used to read a lot of books written by orthodox Jews for non-orthodox audiences about how great and intellectual orthodoxy is. Then I went to Jerusalem and I had the first hand experience that clued me in that all of that was basically marketing hype. Not to mention how I was hated by the rabbis who knew nothing about my being persecuted because of my religious beliefs while I was growing up on LI, NY. Would it have made a difference if they knew about it?
I was told at D’var that a lot of people wanted to study there and if I didn’t fit in and like it there just leave. The problem is that I was very badly damaged psychologically by the problems I had growing up both with my family and with my classmates due to my religious orientation. (I went to Modi’in next and the experience there was better but it was not to last).
My experiences have left me flat and I have no family left after I walked out on Chabad as my first Uncle’s family love Chabad and I know the organization is basically no good. All of this having been said, how can we get the message out in force and scream our story from the rooftops?
I have a secular education and I have years of experience in a variety of fields. I took a course in journalism recently and I’ve been working on an anti-cult book myself. Hopefully, I’ll get it in shape and I can share a perspective on cults in general and not just problematic Jewish groups. The cults are proliferating and I believe in comparative religion. It’s a matter of perspective, something I didn’t have when I was younger. Youth is wasted on the young, I guess. Maybe there’s hope because of this site.
I have a real issue with the fact that I’m disabled and I became sick in Israel being associated with the Carlebach movement and other kiruv organizations like Aish and Diaspora Yeshiva. I’m still trying to gain a healthy perspective on it. I have issues with the fact that the orthodoxy had so much sway in my family. I also have issues with all the wealth and power at their disposal. And that really involves Chabad’s wealth, power and position.
Finally, I have issues with the lack of scientific evidence for many of the orthodoxy’s beliefs. It is a problem.
Anyone care to help me out? I am all ears.

Perhaps I am missing something. I understand there is a difference between a cult and a religious movement.

The difference would be that the religious movement would not mind a follower leaving to another group within that same religion. For example.

Many families, Jewish or not, do not like to see their kids going in a direction completely different from the parents' cultural sorroundings, since obviously something is lost in the relationship once views are so different.

Obviously many complaints come to you from such frustrated parents, I would imagine. And that you know to point out that difference. That it might be disturbing, but not a cult. (and obviously I agree that Esh Hatorah and Chabad ARE problematic).

Therefore I insist: how does this (which I wrote)
"Only 4 types of orthodox Jews are invlved in recruitment at all. Of these, the largest group is that of Litaim, non chassidic Orthodox. Others are: Chabad, Belz (in a limited way) and Jews that have become Orthodox and therefore suggest to others that directions.
Considering that not all Litaim are envolved with recruitment at all, these account for a small percentage of Orthodox Jews anyhow. The fact is, most Orthodox Jews, the vast majority, are not interested at all in recruitment. "

Bode well with this (which you wrote):
"It also appears that the general ultra-Orthodox effort to recruit other Jews into its ranks, is actually more of a response to their shrinking importance and power within the context of more modern Judaism and Jewish interests. "

This isn't a technicallity. Reading it again, does it not look to you as though you are refering to Orthodox Jews in general, when only a minority is problematic?

Imagine you wrote:
""It also appears that the general [b:50cc9ff1fc]Orthodox Christian[/b:50cc9ff1fc] effort to recruit other [b:50cc9ff1fc]Christians[/b:50cc9ff1fc] into its ranks, is actually more of a response to their shrinking importance and power within the context of more modern Christianity and Christian interests. "

If that is not taking sides, then what is?

Just for my piece of mind: would you agree that there are recruitment efforts by secular Jewish movements aiming to "free" young Orthodox Jews, and that these efforts invlove retention?

Jaim:

Yes, you are missing something, actually quite a bit.

My statement was about "ultra-Orthodox" not all Orthodox.

And this is not about "kids going in a direction completely different from the parents," but rather about one Jewish denomination or group targeting kids of another Jewish denomination for the purpose of recruitment.

Of course parents are unhappy about this. Any parent would be unhappy that their child had been targeted in such an organized proselytizing effort.

See [www.culteducation.com]

It is true that most mainstream Orthodox Jews (e.g. OU) and Chasidic sects (e.g. Satmar) don't seem interested in targeting other Jewish kids for recruitment. And historically this type of proselytizing currently being done is largely without precedent.

What "recruitment efforts" are you specifically discussing that express the stated aim to "'free' young Orthodox Jews"?

I am only aware of efforts to support former ultra-Orthodox Jews that have already left various groups, but no effort by such support groups to specifically target practicing ultra-Orthodox Jews in an effort to "free" them.

In many of these situations ultra-Orthodox families have completely cut off their children that have decided to cease practicing as an active member of that group, and the secular support groups simply help the former members by offering support upon request.

See [www.culteducation.com]

And also see [www.culteducation.com]

This is not comparable to the proselytizing efforts previously discussed that target Jewish kids.

richardmgreen:

Rabbi Carlebach remains a paradox.

See [www.culteducation.com]

"It is an alarming paradox, then, that the man who did so much on behalf of women may also have done some of them harm. In the three years since Rabbi Carlebach's death, at age 69, ceremonies honoring his life and work have been interrupted by women who claim the Rabbi sexually harassed or abused them. In dozens of recent interviews, Lilith has attempted to untangle and to explain Rabbi Carlebach's legacy."

I am sorry if this offends you but for me it is clear that for whatever reason it is, you are not objective on this issue.

The technicality "ultra orthodox" vs. "orthodox", what is that?!

Also I insist, there is nothing wrong with recruitment itself. Every person should have the right to suggest what they believe is the better way of life, as long as this person or group refrain from acting as a cult, for example, retaining.

So I disagree with you that parents should be unhappy about this. They should rather accept the fact that children go on to live their lives how they choose to.

I'll point it out again: cults are a terrible thing and one should be very, very careful with them. Being an Orthodox, or even an Ultraorthodox, Jewish or not, is not being part of a cult. It is a totally acceptable option.

And it seems to me you do not clearly make that point, which worries me.

What you write:
" I am only aware of efforts to support former ultra-Orthodox Jews that have already left various groups, but no effort by such support groups to specifically target practicing ultra-Orthodox Jews in an effort to "free" them. "

That is scary. Are you telling me you are not aware of recruitment efforts by secular jews? Are you serious? Would you at least accept the fact that these "support groups" to Orthodox that have left their homes are actively involved in hiding this young confused people so as to "protect them" from their families?

You write:
"In many of these situations ultra-Orthodox families have completely cut off their children that have decided to cease practicing as an active member of that group, and the secular support groups simply help the former members by offering support upon request. "

In what way is that different from secular families cutting off their children who then receive the support of the Orthodox, and ultra orthodox community? Doesn't that second scenario happen many, many more times than the first?

What I am saying is that you seem to treat the exact same actions, negative or positive, differently, when they are performed by orthodox or seculars. Maybe I am wrong, but if not, that is something that someone involved in your field of action should be specially careful with.

Jaim:

You have offered a series of false arguments and attempted to ignore the main point.

Until recently, Jews did not proselytize.

The efforts of ultra-Orthodox and some Orthodox Jews to recruit Reform and Conservative Jews is a recent development witout previous precedent.

The idea of targeting young Reform and Conservative Jews on vacation in Israel is also a recent recruitment strategy.

Neither Reform or Conservative Jews proselytize, nor do they target young Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox Jews on vacation.

What specific "secular Jews" are you referring to that recruit and/or hide Orthodox Jews?

Please name these groups specifically and offer a link to a news report that details such activities.

I am not aware of any "secular," Reform or Conservative Jewish family that has cut off their child because that child became Orthodox.

Please understand that the complaints I have received are from Reform, Conservative and unaffiliated Jewish families that have experienced increasingly little contact with their children once they have become involved with ultra-Orthodox groups.

These families have not cut off their children, though they may have been critical of the influence exerted over their child by certain ultra-Orthodox groups.

In some cases ultra-Orthodox Jewish groups have attempted to recruit minor children without parental consent.

Do you support ignoring a parent's rights regarding the determination of religious training for their own minor children?