that the kundalini, chakras, naddis, etc is nothing more than a myth?

Could it be that no one actually has the power to control energy centers in other human beings, because exergy centers are nonexistant?

I understand that these are ancient beliefs we are talking about, but has anything actually been proven (under scientific conditions)?

Sahaja Yogis claim to be able to feel, within their own chakras, the "catches" and "clearings" on the chakras of others (as well as their own). They will stand behind a person with their palms upward, directed at that person's spine. Then they will, one by one, focus their attention on each of the person's chakras. In this way, they believe, they are able to determine which chakras need "clearing," which they then go about doing.

They will make counter clockwise motions with their hands, sometimes making motions that suggest throwing out the negativity. They'll "move energy" from left to right or vice versa (depending on the problem). There are other treatments (using a candle flame, shoebeating, foot soaking, etc.)

I did all this myself. I actually thought it worked.

But were those hot/cold/warm sensations I felt in my palms an indication of anything? Who's to say what any of it means? Maybe it means nothing.

I can tell you this: Time after time, Sahaja Yogis have been invited to take what skeptics refer to as "the envelope test." This simple test would indicate whether a Sahaja Yogi actually can feel cool (positive) vibrations or hot (negative) vibrations without knowing what they're focusing on.

It works like this: You get 10 identical envelopes. In one you put a photo of the guru who calls herself God, Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi. In the other 9 you can put photos of yourself, Hitler, Stalin, George Bush, Pewee Herman--whomever. Then you ask a Sahaja Yogi to focus on each envelope using their so-called vibrations. An accomplished yogi should be able to pick out the envelope that contains the photo of his guru.

Needless to say not one single Sahaja Yogi will submit to this test. Some might even quote the Bible--don't put God to the test...

Maybe we believe what we want to believe and that's that.

Wordgirl. So many times these past few months I had hoped and wished that these Chakras, Kundalini etc., is just a myth. I tried to look for logical, rational explanation for some of the things that I had seen. I did not find any. We met a psychiatrist who does not believe in them and feels it is just hypnosis, and imagination. This lack of information, logical explanation made it extremely difficult for me; my own family member is under the influence of a 'guru' who is able to manipulate, channel subtle energies. The experiences that these people go through are real. Feelings of love, compassion, bliss etc., Unfortunately, for people who do not know that manipulating subtle energies is a learned ability, they believe that the one doling out this bliss has divine sanction. This makes it so very difficult to get such people to leave the cult.

alphaalpha, you wrote:

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my own family member is under the influence of a 'guru' who is able to manipulate, channel subtle energies. The experiences that these people go through are real.

But how can you be sure? How do you know the guru is able to do this?

I don't doubt the experiences are real. I had some (subtle) experiences myself and I've always considered myself pretty resistant to hypnotic suggestion.

But I do believe in the power of suggestion. Also the power of positive thinking. I think a person is perfectly capable of making themself believe they're experiencing something real.

Isn't it possible that the psychiatrist you met who thought these things were the result of hypnosis and imagination may be onto something?

Remember the "Salem Witches?" An entire community believed the accusations of a few little girls, launching the trials that put to death by hanging, perfectly innocent people who'd been accused of being "witches." It was neighbor against neighbor and few people were safe from being called satanic. Witches? Black Magic? No. More likely a combination of Puritainism, boredom, mistrust and mass hysteria.

That is my viewpoint, that it is all the power of Suggestion and Belief.
Obviously, this is a massive subject, and people have different points of view.
But to me, if i BELIEVE that Sai Baba can read my thoughts, and control my chakras, then i am going to feel those effects, just like if i BELIEVE that a Voodoo Hex is going to harm me.

The world is full of charlatans, claiming they can talk to your dead relatives, or heal your chakras, or cure your cancer...for a fee.

After 20 years of constant research, it is my position that there is ZERO actual evidence for the "paranormal". There is even a $1 Million award to anyone who can prove ANY paranormal act!
[www.randi.org]

The "effects" people experience are in my view, "just" the effects of their own Beliefs.
Our Beliefs are incredibly powerful.

A person can believe that Jesus is their Savior, or that Sai Baba is the risen GodmanChrist, or that they must kill themselves as the spaceship is coming for them, or anything else. If they REALLY BELIEVE it, they will experience certain "effects", emotional, and even physical psychosomatic effects.

A friend of mine BELIEVES homeopathy cured some cuts on his face.
What if he is wrong and his face simply healed itself by natural means?
(I see no proper scientific evidence for homeopathy, and in my book it is a pseudoscience).

For me, the answer is Critical Thinking, and the Will To Doubt.
Put me in front of these Golden Gurus, and they will have NO EFFECT on me. Why? Because i do not believe their claims they are Godmen. To me they are just men, some deluded, but mostly con-men.

Our Beliefs/Schemas are the master controls of how our brain constructs reality. It is necessary to be VERY careful what we choose to believe.
I use Carl Sagans methods outlined in his excellent book, "The Demon Haunted World".
[www1.tpgi.com.au]

We do live in a Demon Haunted World, of humans with superstitious Palaeolithic brains, crying out for Gods. Perhaps education in critical thinking will move us out of this morass.
Carl Sagan called "Science, a candle in the dark".

The darkness of medieval superstition is running rampant in the world today, from fanaticism, to cultists, to fundamentalists, to new-agers, to occultists. Who knows, humanity could be slipping into a New Dark Age. Certainly, that's how the "leaders" seem to want it to be. A terrified God-fearing superstitious populace who follows orders.
We are literally living in a "bread and circus" society. The LAST thing the Powers That Be want is for the "rabble" to think carefully and reasonably.
This contributes to the rise in Cults and fundamentalism. People are even trying to get Evolution out of the textbooks, for Gods sake!

Its all part of the same problem to me.

The solution is for people to learn how to THINK critically.

Coz

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Wordgirl
that the kundalini, chakras, naddis, etc is nothing more than a myth?

Could it be that no one actually has the power to control energy centers in other human beings, because exergy centers are nonexistant?

I understand that these are ancient beliefs we are talking about, but has anything actually been proven (under scientific conditions)?

Needless to say not one single Sahaja Yogi will submit to this test. Some might even quote the Bible--don't put God to the test...

Maybe we believe what we want to believe and that's that.

"But how can you be sure? How do you know the guru is able to do this?"

Wordgirl: I have no definite way of knowing this. All I can say is that the effect it has on some people is transformtional. Most people seem to express the same symptoms: bliss, compassion, and healings. There is a chance that the healings could be psychosomatic, but to be pain free for over 4 months? I do not like anything that cannot be explained logically, scientifically myself, and anything that is not repeatable on every person, not a select few. What I hate though is the dependece it creates in the 'victims', and how susceptible they become to any bs that is doled out to them by the person who are able to give them these altered states.

As long as there is a chance that people can be victimized by these 'gurus', whether by hypnosis, suggestion, subtle energies or whatever means, people should be aware of this so they could be on their guard. Unfortunately most of us are not aware of these crooks until it is late.

I agree with Cosmophilospher that people need to learn to think critically. And to never give this faculty up. Most of the gurus demand that one give up their ego, logic and critical thinking as part of the requirement of belonging. One does not even realize that one is being exploited.

my experiance is that the mind is for the individual very powerfull as far as creating these experiances. these yogies are using methods to gain acsess to the sub councious mind. and for myself,[ who was knee deep in it].that was the way to gain freedom from it. its not a rule. for me all the systems ,chakras, kundalini,etc.
are directed at gaining control. just thoughts really. i relized this when my belief changed about a thing and i was not experiancing it any longer. so ive been reading so much on brain washing. the sad thing is that its all about control. ive been around these socalled saints in america for the better part of my life, and the back drop of the sweet vibrations. is the snaring of devoties. not many go without the ego. i want to make this clear. in the indian mind its all about control. going to any lenth to keep you in the sanga. no matter how sick they are. you have to see it to believe. so there is the pretty picture, and the hidden agenda. in the guru world if they lose a devotee to another guru is a serious thing. and to me who is trying to get on with my life, its tuff! some yogies beleive they acually are in control of the karma of a individual. so that mean they think that they are going to make them suffer to surender there ego to them. insanity. i knew there was hope for me when talking to a theropist my brain cleared for a wile. in the prosess of him questing the beleif system i snapped back to my old self. :) so there is recovery and it works. its hard work. but to me having my free mind back. i longed for this.
[learning to spell again.lol]

vinman

This may sound like a strange question, but has anyone ever seen a gurus eyes turn an odd silvery color? I saw this several times with my teacher and I always attributed it to a trick of lighting or something until I mentioned it to a freind after I had left the group. She freaked out and told me that she had seen the same thing in a guru back in NYC who she had met breifly. I have wondered at times since I left if it could have possibly been attributable to drugs, like cocaine. My teacher had these incredible manic stages she would go through, staying up for hours into the night lecturing sometimes, and I always wondered how she had the energy to do that.

that they know how to palm contact lenses. It may be possible to get a set of custom made mirrored contact lenses and then slip them in.

Many of the seemingly magical tricks and miracles done by gurus are actually stage magic using slight-of-hand.

If someone can roll their eyes back into their heads, with just the white showing, and if lights are angled just the right way, couldth that have accounted for the 'spooky eyes' effect you two witnessed?

Finally, people who are bipolar, 'flying high' in a manic episode can induce an unsettling effect in sensitive persons. A person I knew who was a casemanager and worked on an outreach team for homeless people told our team he knew when someone in a manic phase was sitting in the waiting room, even when X had the door to his office closed; he could sense a high intensity 'crackle' in the atmosphere when someone like that was within 15 or twenty feet.

It is possible that persons who crave a higher level of vitality/energy than they can honestly obtain from their own unaided spiritual practice may become gurus and attract devotees, precisely so they can tap into the collective vitality of their followers and keep themselves flying high.

Any athlete will tell you that he or she gets a surge of energy when they're playing in their home stadium and their fans are cheering them on.

It is called 'the home field advantage'.

If this holds true for athletes, it surely applies to gurus.

At least athletes (and most musicians and actors) are up front about the benefits they get from eliciting energy from an admiring fan base.

But the fake gurus claim they get their energy from their spiritual practice and refuse to admit that they need devotees to serve as energy donors.

At least if the gurus were up front about all this, prospective followers would be able to make an informed decision.

We know how certain people get rich designing pyramid schemes in which they get lots of us to loan or donate money.

Siddhi yogis masquerading as teachers of enlightenment are operating a similar pyramid scheme by teasing energy/vitality from devotees, then pretending it is is their own vitality.

"people who are bipolar, 'flying high' in a manic episode can induce an unsettling effect in sensitive persons. A person I knew who was a casemanager and worked on an outreach team for homeless people told our team he knew when someone in a manic phase was sitting in the waiting room, even when X had the door to his office closed; he could sense a high intensity 'crackle' in the atmosphere when someone like that was within 15 or twenty feet."

I know what you mean; I used to work with the mentally ill and there was a certain energy that I felt emitted off of people who were about to veer into manic stage....it made me feel very tense and fatigued at the same time.

I also wonder if this woman may have put herself into a trance state that made her eyes go silver, or something. I know that certain chakras above the 7th can resonate with the color silver. The weird thing is no one else ever said anything about, so I never mentioned it; I thought I may been imagining it. It was one of the spookiest things I ever saw. Actually, I don't know what's scarier--the thought that she may have been palming contact lenses in delberate attempt to decieve, or the thought that she was sucking everyone's essense to get to a high energy level...either way it's not good.

It's funny, a year later and I still to continue to be completly freaked out by the whole experience. And the more I read on this board, the more scary it becomes.
:eek:

As cynical and skeptical as I've become, I do believe there is something to the view that certain sensitive people can feel something episodic about to happen. Certainly there are dogs now trained to react when they sense their master is about to have an epileptic episode. What do these animals sense that humans don't?

When my children were babies I would wake up in the night, moments before they cried for a diaper change or a feeding. Somehow I'd just know that I was needed. Psychic connection? I doubt it. But what, I don't know.