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Question about Eyes and Hypnosis
Posted by: Dervish ()
Date: March 18, 2004 07:24AM

During the infancy of my move into eastern religion, I found myself affiliated to one guru for exactly one year. One year I met him, I saw his group for what it really was, a cult, set up with corporate efficiency to gather as much money and as many followers as possible. At first, the voice of reason was a small, recessive voice, but gradually, through mercy, I saw the hypocracy, and left.

A while after I left, I met other ex-members who told me similar things had kept them away, but unfortunately for them, it took them longer to break out (cerebrally, not physically). But one thing they had all mentioned that I found interesting was that they believed that the guru had hyponotized them using siddhis.

One fellow even remarked that after quitting the guru, he had beseeched him to come back, and he did, and after seeing him again, he noted that looking back on the experienced, he felt entranced when their eyes met.

I can't stand to believe that I was hypotized. I admit it was a mistake, albeit one that I learned a lot about and luckily did not lose nearly as much time and money as others did who made the same mistake I did. I was under the impression that I was weakened from bad times in my life, but goodness no, not hypotism, or mystic siddhis via eye contact.

I suppose the question is, is this mundane hyponotism, yogic siddhi powers, or both? This particular group looked down upon "powers", but who's to say if they didn't use them in secret. All I know is, the answers to why they are a corrupt cult are right in front of their eyes. I've seen members from poorer nations marvel at the guru's potency of attracting primarily wealthy western followers.

They even express some doubt over the philosophical butchering of their own dharmic beliefs, but seem to put the thoughts away in an air of something which I can only seem to call "ignorance is bliss" When I first joined them, they seemed small, but the year after they expanded, and the better half of a decade later, they only seem to be collecting more resources. A sad parody of Sanatan Dharma, but I realize every major religion has pretenders.

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Question about Eyes and Hypnosis
Posted by: kittypaw ()
Date: March 18, 2004 08:32AM

clicked on the link and cackled out loud!

thanks for the lighter side of SY!

and I'm so glad you didn't send your kids to the SY school!


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Question about Eyes and Hypnosis
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 18, 2004 12:25PM

let us hope that more people will visit this thread, read it, and contribute their observations and insights.

From the Google listserve thread, 'Habib' describes what was done to him.

(Habib's quote)

I was given shaktipat without even asking for it or giving
my permission, by a guru (of a friend) who is a lineage-holder for the American-born Swami Rudrananda (Rudi).

'He approached me and took my hand. While shaking it, he held on tightly and *looked into my eyes*. I felt a not-so-subtle wave of shakti literally force it's way in *through my eyes* and all the way down my back to the base of my spine. It was accompanied by a subtle burning sensation that swept over me. When after a minute or two he diverted his gaze and let go of my hand, he simply strode away...leaving me to fall in a heap on the ground.

"My nervous system was completely fried. I hardly knew where
I was, and didn't yet fully understand what had happened to me. For the next several weeks, I went through what I still think of as border-line psychotic states. During this time, I experienced constant strange fevers, of the type that has been described in those experiencing difficult kundalini arousal. I burned, but a
thermometer showed no change in my body temperature. It was
like going crazy temporarily.

'This guru is a very well known author. He has a very large monied Ashram here in Portland, Oregon and I have seen that his devotees, rather than becoming more equanimous over time, as they should if his ministrations were truly beneficial, instead become addicted to the artificial stimulation of his forced injections of shakti.

'Their emotional lives plunge deeper into chaos, and they are all programmed to take it all as a "good sign" ignoring the fact that the "symptoms" never actually come to an end so long as they are with the Guru.

'So there does not seem to be a positive difference between my reaction to being "blasted" and the reactions of those who willingly submit themselves to it daily.

'I was fortunate to have had the spiritual teacher that I did. He guided me through it all safely in the end, by having me focus on what was real...God, not "yogi psychic tricks"...

'When it comes to the big "Kundalini", don't f-k around....withshaktipat, or even with exercises designed to "pump energy up the spine." There are few modern teachers qualified to use such techniques, and even fewer students ready to handle the effects of them. If you are looking for a convincing "light show"...then there are certainly gurus out there who will accomodate you, through misuse of siddhis, but if this is what you are looking for, you are
heading for trouble!

'True awakening never comes through such sensationalism, but simply through focusing on the goal which is to know God.

'Be careful out there! (end of Habib's account)


Corboy's account--Ethical Transfusion of Subtle Energy/Siddhis

Some years ago, after taking a Chi Gong class, I had an opportunity to witness transmission of 'qi' (aka 'shaktipat') by an honorable teacher. This teacher's behavior is quite different from situations we are examining and the one described by Habib.

First, I witnessed the incident by happenstance, because I returned to the classroom to pick up a jacket I'd left behind. The Chi Gong instructor had not sought publicity (good sign #1). He'd waited until the class was over and the others had left the room.

The person who received this treatment was a visitor who was in chronic pain after a back injury. He had been in class with us, and afterwards, chatted with the teacher. He offhandedly told the instructor that he dreaded the 200 mile bus trip he had to take to get home.

The instructor offered him some temporary pain relief. The teacher made it very clear this would be temporary, and was no substitute for the treatment the man was getting from his health care provider at home. (Good sign #2)--dont disrupt existing relationships with health care providers and (Good sign #3), dont make sensational claims and finally (Good sign #4), ask permission from people before offering to work with their energy.

THe man stood with his back to the teacher. There was no eye contact, no chanting. The instructor did not tell the man to focus his mind or do anything except stand still. So it appears nothing was done to induce trance.

The teacher stood 4 feet behind the student, moved his hands over the mans back, 5 inches away. He did not touch the man except once. As soon as the teacher touched a specific spot on his back the man said 'Yes, thats where I was injured in my accident.'

After identifying the precise location of the man's injury, the teacher stepped back a couple of feet, until he was 6 to 7 feet behind the student. The man could not see what the teacher was doing. The teacher made flinging motions with his hands. I stood about 5 feet behind the teacher.

Each time the teacher flung out his hands, the man receiving the treatment jumped. At the same time, I felt prickles of what felt like c\sharp, static electricity.

After one or two minutes, the man receiving the treatment turned around and thanked the teacher, saying he felt better. He seemed happy and relieved, but was alert and physically agile.

What intrigued me most was the phenomenon I had witnessed. The teacher's personality left no fascinating 'afterimage' in my mind -- Good Sign #6. The teacher came across a 'regular guy' who just happened to be able to do this.

I did not feel any drive to get more involved with the teacher's classes, even though I respected him.

It was more like 'So this is possible. The universe is larger than I thought it was.' I walked away not interested in the teacher, but interested in the properties of energy in the universe. The teacher's personality had 'disappeared' into the teaching. (Good sign #6)

It appears that a trained human being can indeed transmit subtle energy to another person, and it is not even necessary for them to stare into a subject's eyes.

It also seemed clear that a son of a bitch can do this just as well as a nice guy. This skill is ethically neutral. *It can be used for good or for evil.*

It is a blessing to us all that this Chi Gong teacher is an honest man and prefers to live a quiet and useful life as a teacher and private citizen. If he were to make unethical use of his talents, he could become world famous and enslave people quite easily.

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Question about Eyes and Hypnosis
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 18, 2004 12:57PM

Fixed gaze trance work is apparently practiced in some Western esoteric groups.

The problem with the way certain groups are set up is that beginning students are not told the complete story about what will be studied and the actual nature of the group doctrine. The alibi is often that the new students are at too low a level of consciousness to understand the information. So they may not be told beforehand that trance and cultivation of siddhis are actually part of the curriculum, which means that students cannot make an informed decision whether they wish to get involved with anything that involves trancework.

Some examples:

1) Long, very informative article here. The author also mentions problems that arise when covens and lodges fail to screen out unethical persons who seek to learn these techniques.



'I do not mean to imply that yoga techniques are not important in magick, or that yoga and magical hypnosis are not interrelated. One of the first techniques the magical student has to learn is the practice of "tratakam", the "fixed gaze". This is a hypnotic facet of yoga meditation wherein the student develops the ability to stare at a fixed point, or symbol, for long periods of time without blinking or letting the eyes change focus. This ability is absolutely essential to future Almadel and Goetia operations.

'A noted anthropologist once wrote that shamans could be recognized by their agitated manner and shifty glance. If he applied this to magicians, he could not have been more wrong. A magician looks right through you and never blinks. No one can stare him down except another magician.' (unquote)

2) Rom Landau reported an incident in which Gurdjeiff might have used siddhis. This is reported both in 'The Harmonious Circle' by James Webb and 'Holy Madness' by Georg Feurstein.

According to Landau, he was in a restaurant with a woman friend, and they saw Gurdjieff at a nearby table. Gurdjieff looked at them, perhaps sensed their disapproval. Gurdjieff began breathing heavily, and suddenly Landau's friend went pale and gave a gasping shudder.

She told Landau later that she'd felt penetrated 'In her sexual center' and urged him to be on his guard if he considered studying with Gurdjieff.

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Question about Eyes and Hypnosis
Posted by: alphaalpha ()
Date: March 18, 2004 10:19PM

Thanks to Corboy's insightful posting on this topic. Six months ago I had very little knowledge about trance states, shaktipat etc. since then, thorough the experience of my friend, as well as my own family I am personally aware of these states.

The 'guru' in my case, did not even have to do much of talking, chanting, or anything. He just leads any group of people into what he calls as meditation where one closes their eyes and mentally picture him sourcing energies that flow through their body. People go into exposive states of consciousness. Blissful states, see their favorite god forms, zero thoughts, compassion for the world etc., Some claim that their physical ailments get spontaneously cured. Only problem is that life is never the same for them from that point on. They are changed, and become totally committed to the guru and his teachings, however irrational those teachings are. He becomes a modern day Rasputin in their lives. Nothing else matters, except following his teachings. They find new meanings and interpretations in whatever he says. Their goal gets redifined to his version of getting enlightened and nothing else. I do not know if this is shaktipat, or what these energies are and how this person got the ability to channel them. He himself claims to have no guru for himself. (He is God, according to him).

Just wanted to convey that some people do not have to make eye contact, lead with hypnotic words or anything to have a captive influence on people.

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Question about Eyes and Hypnosis
Posted by: Hope ()
Date: March 18, 2004 11:05PM

I've witnessed my doctor stare at people in the most intense, bone-chilling way. This stare is also considered a trait of sociopaths, which there is no doubt my doctor was. We were on the steps of Riverside Church waiting in line to get in to see Thich Nat Hahn (sp?) and doc spotted a young woman standing nearby and fixed his gaze on her. It was not a lustful gaze or leering by any means, but rather like dracula's magnetic stare. I saw him do this a few times. Each time, the recipient of the stare did not realize he had continued to stare at them after they made initial eye contact. The woman on the steps didn't make eye contact with him, didn't know he was looking at her. It's as if he was picking up some cue for future reference.

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Question about Eyes and Hypnosis
Posted by: alphaalpha ()
Date: March 19, 2004 06:40AM

It is really distressing that there is so much of this activity going on that most of the public are not even aware of. Even more distressing that most people would not even believe such things like trance induction, shaktipat etc., are possible. With the increasing number of dubious gurus and sadhgurus who seem to be making their way to the United States to ply their trade, one would wish that the public could be warned of such possibilities and how to be on guard against these influences.

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Question about Eyes and Hypnosis
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 19, 2004 11:44PM

First, ask why you want enlightenment and what you think it is. IF you equate enlightenment with power or miracle working, you'll be entralled by anyone who panders to your craving for power.

If you're unconsciously looking for a Magic Parent, you'll be exploited by anyone who presents as the spiritual equivalent of Santa Claus.

Implications of this are, if you're considering whether to work with a particular teacher, you must know and care about the difference between siddhi yogis and satgurus.

First, you cannot afford to be naive. You must be willing to do some research and educate yourself.

You cannot take people's word for it about their lineage claims. Too many of these people lie about their lineages. If you dont know how to trace a prospective guru's lineage, you will fall for someone who is operating as a rogue, peddling a bogus tradition he cobbled togther in the basement and is passing off as genuine to those unfamiliar with Hinduism.

Investigate a prospective teacher's lineage claims and find out who his or her teachers have been, and whether that guru was received endorsement/initation from a reputable [i:8a8f9e4d82]satguru[/i:8a8f9e4d82], or studied with siddhi yogis who form part of the Indian spiritual underworld.

Many practitioners get fascinated by special powers and charisma they develop (siddhis) and abandon the quest for ultimate enlightenment, which is the true goal of yoga. They take the easy way and use their powers to influence others. Persons in this predicament are termed 'yogabhrasta'--fallen-from-yoga.'--Agehananda Bharati describes this in Light at the Center.

Many people take more care to research the performance profiles of cars and computers than spiritual teachers and belief systems. [b:8a8f9e4d82]Use your mind and you'll get to keep it.[/b:8a8f9e4d82]

1) For tricks used by gurus to 'fake' miracles-- [i:8a8f9e4d82]'The Sorcerer's Apprentice [/i:8a8f9e4d82]by Tahir Shah. You can also read how these miracles are faked if you go to various websites exposing Satya Sai Baba. The Indian Rationalists also have a site. Google them.

2) [i:8a8f9e4d82]Living With Kundalini [/i:8a8f9e4d82]by Gopi Krishna. A classic account. Krishna experienced a spontaneous energy surge while doing yoga at home and nearly lost his health and his life. His father was devotee of many shyster gurus and became mentally unstable.

3) [i:8a8f9e4d82]The Ochre Robe[/i:8a8f9e4d82] and [i:8a8f9e4d82]The Light at the Center [/i:8a8f9e4d82]both by Agehananda Bharati. Essential reading for anyone who thinks they need a guru, especially if they want to go to India and look for one. Bharati is crabby and will often make you angry, but he was a Sanskrit scholar, became an Indian monk, and after having several enlightenment experiences himself, interviewed many other enlightened persons, doing a survey of how enlightenment transforms (and very often) fails to transform the human personality. He also described exactly how people get reputations as gurus in India--and he demonstrates that real Hindu gurus never do outreach to non-Hindus.

It is also important to observe who your teacher socializes with. If he or she tends to socialize with siddhi yogis, shady types, lone ranger types and avoids satgurus, thats a red flag.

Gopi Krishna became convinced that a craving for signs and wonders and a fascination for miracles, combined with a wilful refusal to utilize critical thinking were, early symptoms of an unbalanced approach to spiritual practice. If someone is already biased in favor of signs and wonders, and dislikes critical thinking, they are already at risk of being thrown off balance by a bliss surge or uncanny experience, just as certain people deteriorate rapidly as soon as they discover and start using intoxicating drugs.

Finally, observe the effects of discipleship among the people in the guru's circle. If people are regressing, getting addicted to the powers, bickering and infighting, and if there is one code of ethics for visitors and a completely different one for the inner circle--run like hell in the other direction.

'Best advice from someone was 'Watch your own emotions and thoughts. If you're visiting a guru and you find yourself fantasizing about how much fun it will be when you become a guru, and have all the cute hot people sitting in the front row swooning over your eloquence--then that guru is not the right teacher for you, because your own greed, lust and ambition are being stimulated. THis may be an excellent teacher for someone else, but is the wrong teacher for you. Get out.

'Look for a guru in whose presence you become alert, lucid, insightful and grown up. Avoid anyone in whose presence you feel your greed, hate and illusions being stimulated.'

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Question about Eyes and Hypnosis
Posted by: Wordgirl ()
Date: March 20, 2004 12:51AM

All this is really fascinating. Alas, there was no Internet 20 years ago when I got snared by Sahaja Yoga. Even so, Shri Mataji lied to her cult followers, over and over. She's still lying to this day.

She would tell us terrible things about the guru who used to call himself Bhogwhan Shri Rajneesh (now Osho). She would say he's a false guru, totally evil and a sexual pervert. The reality is, prior to creating her cult, Sahaja Yoga, Mataji attended Osho's lectures/meditations at his camp. There is evidence of this available on the Internet: photos, a movie of her sitting blissed out under a tree. Word is, after seeing how easy it was for him to fool people and become rich, she decided to go into the guru business herself. There is also talk of Mataji being romantically obsessed with Osho. When her attempts to attract him were spurned, she was furious and became his competition in the guru business.

Long after I'd removed myself from Cult Sahaja Yoga I discovered this information from highly reliable sources (former SY members, some of whom I know personally) posted at a variety of Internet locations. Even though I'd been out of SY for years, I was shocked. I didn't want to believe it. It hurt.

I have never had the dramatic experiences that Corboy writes about here. As a twenty-something, I was mostly shy and quite nervous around groups. Meeting Mataji in person (several times on a one-on-one basis) was a terrifying experience for me. At the finish of one puja, she had me sit before her. She held both of my hands, examining them. She noted they had a mottled appearance. She asked me what kind of work I do. I told her I work for a newspaper. She looked surprised, then smiled a bit. She kept hold of my hands, looking at them carefully. Then she told me I was thinking too much. She stroked my open palms and told me to close my eyes. She had me say (out loud--which was embarassing, as there were about a hundred people watching) "Mother you do everything, I do nothing." Over and over I had to say it. It had the effect of making me feel foolish and even more nervous, but I did as I was instructed. After what seemed like an eternity (but was probably only about 5 minutes), she told me to open my eyes. My hands looked less mottled and she said "There, you see! Finished!" Then she let out a big chuckle, slapped me on the shoulder and told me I was going to be alright.

The audience that had gathered round to watch started congratulating me like something major had happened. The insisted I had a cool breeze shooting out of the top of my head, though I couldn't for the life of me feel it. But this was supposedly the desired effect. It meant I'd gotten my realization, big time. And, of course, being told this was a big boost to my ego. I felt like I had been welcomed into the family. But I still felt nervous, slightly sick to my stomach.

These days I am inclined to believe that much of what I saw, endured, experienced was self-induced. Certainly I've heard enough perfectly intelligent people tell their tales of spectacular inner/outer body sensations, visions, etc. None of this ever happened to me. I almost wish it had.

Having supposedly gotten my "self realization," I was to understand that I was now empowered to give it to others, which I did regularly (supposedly) using the techniques I learned.

I have no idea whether or not I've been damaged or have damaged others myself with this so-called power. If I have done harm to others, it was completely unintentional on my part and I sincerely wish I could make amends in some way. But I am inclined to believe that I was thoroughly brainwashed. And that chakras, kundalini and self realization is a myth.

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Question about Eyes and Hypnosis
Posted by: alphaalpha ()
Date: March 20, 2004 02:02AM

A significant number of people (including me) were drawn to dubious gurus for seemingly innocuous things like yoga and meditation. Before we realize what is happening we are drawn deep into their practices and we begin to lose our logic and rationality. I wish I had known to do background checks into sadhgurus and gurus. The first 'guru' we got involved in the United States is 'Sadhguru' Jaggi Vasudev. Calls himself self Enlightened and teaches pranayam and meditation. Anyone attending his 'free' intro class would be struck by his logic, eloquence and seemingly friendly way in which he conducts his into class. All the other stuff comes later by which time it might be too late. Anyone encountering altered states of consciousness, hysterical laughing, crying etc., on the first day would flee the place. But the progressive way in which you are exposed to this makes every one of these appear natural and normal. Too late did I come to know that this Enlightened yogi was trained by Rishi Prabhakar, founder of SSY, who himself was a disciple of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and Werner Erhard.

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