Anti-Cult I am not trying to be disrespectful to you but I think that your previous posts regarding Icke demonstrate what I am trying to express about skeptics.

Right up you have starting with generalisations as to his mental state, not attacking or disproving his theories. Admittedly a person's mentality, as I have just posted on should be examined but it is not the be all and end all of disproving anything. It is also very easy to attack Icke from this angle -but while dismissing his theories as being false you have offerred absolutely no contradiction.

When you say - most people who have well functioning reality testing mental apparatus, will immediately see that David Icke is..well...nuts - is just skeptic shorthand. It is no different to when Bhaktivedanta Swami (founder of the Hare Krishnas) or any of his offspring gurus stand there and go "Oh the less intelligent people don't believe in God, they criticise us because they are envious" "The more intelligent people will immediately see the value of this.." It is just a confidence trick - you're on my side right because you're not an idiot - [i:17aa7b03d2]are you?? [/i:17aa7b03d2]

These practices take people's intelligence much more for granted than anyone like Icke who even if his mental state and research is flawed at least mounts an argument.

There is absolutely no evidence of the committment to open mindedness and reliance of facts that you refer to as being the cornerstone of skepticism in your own profferred contributions.

Rama has stated over and over again that he does not unconditionally accept all of Icke's theories but that he does not discount them either. In any response he has been given no reason to discount them either. That is the sign of a genuine skeptic and discerning open mind. Because I pretty much agree with him I guess that would make us the demons of the skeptic religion - which is certainly a good way to get around the no preaching rule in effect here.

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I have actually met several people who believe in David Icke and his madness, and the lizardpeople eating babies, etc.
To me, he is more along the lines of the lunatic fringe New Age stuff.

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When one looks at David Icke, its becomes very clear that what we are dealing with there is a troubled person, who cannot distinguish his internal delusions from external objective reality. Those sorts of "paranoid delusions" should not be encouraged in people, but instead should be Falsified by the evidence.
But that being said, most people who have well functioning reality testing mental apparatus, will immediately see that David Icke is..well...nuts.

Anticult,

blame rests with CSICOP and James Randi for the semantic drift that the word skeptic has undergone. they appropriated the term for their ends.

the open-minded approach you mentioned sounds more like the Fortean approach. if you don't know about that movement than I say check it out.

I agree that there are many folks who say they are Skeptics, are just arrogant jerks, with a closed mind, trying to make themselves sound superior.

But James Randi is not one of them.
I have had a lot of personal contact with James Randi over the years. He's a great guy. Many people are just put off by his personality quirks. But if anyone has any real PROOF for something, Randi would be the FIRST one to admit it, and publicize it. Randi just takes on the scammers, and exposes them, and there are countless scammers out there, like Uri Geller, etc.

But let me tell you something. If anyone thinks they can pass James Randi's Million Dollar Challenge, I will help them do it. I am serious.
[www.randi.org]
Its not fixed, its legit.
The reality is that most if the people out there who CLAIM they can pass it are scammers out making a buck, and the lie about James Randi, as Randi is exposing their scam.
Randi is one of the Good Guys, and he has the guts to go after people, much like Rick Ross has the guts to stand up to "cults".
Seriously, James Randi is an amazing guy, who is trying to help people who are getting scammed by the scammers and liars.

You know, damn, it just occurred to me.
That would make a FANTASTIC Reality Show, people trying to win his Million Dollar Challenge. I am going to contact James Randi right now, and ask why in the heck they don't have a Reality Show, with people trying to pass that test.
That would be a great educational tool.

But seriously, if anyone can think of a way to pass the Randi test, I will literally help you set it up.
Its not a scam.
If I could think of a way to pass it, I would get the million bucks myself!

I used to believe in "psychic" powers, etc, years ago. Until I decided to try and TEST all that stuff.
Man, when you TEST it, using objective tools, reality can slap you in the face really quick. But its a good slap.

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cultreporter
What I was specifically referring to was as I said those who identify as skeptics and follow the theology of skepticism as if it is their religion. Among them are the most closed minded individuals that I have ever met.

There are certain things that can not be proven one way or the other but that does not mean that any skeptic that I have ever met has conceded this. They are prepared to fight to the death as hard as any religionist if you dare to dispute that God exists that absolutley nothing of any supernatural nature exists. James Randi is a professional skeptic (and a leader in the skeptic cult) and there is a lot of information on-line about how he structures his research into the paranormal so that there is absolutely no chance that he will ever be proven wrong. Of course that is subject to what you want to believe :wink:

I sincerely question how open minded skeptics can be when they only focus on setting out to prove that anything supernatural does not exist and confirm that pre-exsting opinions of the status quo.

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cultreporter
When you say - most people who have well functioning reality testing mental apparatus, will immediately see that David Icke is..well...nuts - is just skeptic shorthand. It is no different to when Bhaktivedanta Swami (founder of the Hare Krishnas) or any of his offspring gurus stand there and go "Oh the less intelligent people don't believe in God, they criticise us because they are envious" "The more intelligent people will immediately see the value of this.." It is just a confidence trick - you're on my side right because you're not an idiot - [i:4c0299dc2f]are you?? [/i:4c0299dc2f]

true.

that explains everything and nothing.

I think mistaken fits better than nuts. or mostly mistaken. mistaken in what areas? how did he come to the wrong conclusions? nuts explains nothing and everything.

like I said upthread, I consider Icke's thesis that various power elites run the global economy (as best they can... they don't have total power, for example they relatively little say over how global warming will shake up things) as basically correct. however this insight doesn't originate with Icke nor do many of the ideas tha he promotes.

There are no Skepticism Police, and people have different styles.

Its like with Cults.
There are True Believers, and there are con-artists, and scammers.

The cons and scammers can be freely attacked.
Hopefully, the True Believers can be treated more gently.

I think David Icke is a disturbed person, with a serious personality disorder, as stated. The reason I feel its ok to attack David Icke, is because he is getting rich doing what he is doing. So either he, or his manager/agent, are running a good business. So he is open game.
Also, David Icke is leading a lot of people down a dangerous path, like many of those "Leaders".
buts its a free country, if people want to believe that stuff, then go ahead.

so my view is that for Scammers, they can be quickly shown how they are scamming.
but for True Believers, or the victims, they can be treated more compassionately.

But as far as this thread, David Icke in my view, is a disturbed person. But the problem is that he seems to be crazy like a fox, and is making a ton of money. So Icke is also a True Believer, and also a Salesman and self-promoter and huckster.

But no one who believes in David Icke is going to change their beliefs anyway, so its a moot point.

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The Anticult
But let me tell you something. If anyone thinks they can pass James Randi's Million Dollar Challenge, I will help them do it. I am serious.
[www.randi.org]
Its not fixed, its legit.

just like when those creationists go, I'll pay you X number of dollars if you can prove evolution. I always thought Randi should accept their challenge, win, and add the prize to his million dollar kitty. because I have no doubt whatsoever that he would manage to prove evolution. he would wouldn't he?

the same way that Randi gives everyone a fair chance of winning.

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You know, damn, it just occurred to me.
That would make a FANTASTIC Reality Show, people trying to win his Million Dollar Challenge. I am going to contact James Randi right now, and ask why in the heck they don't have a Reality Show, with people trying to pass that test.
That would be a great educational tool.

it would make a great reality show. a pretty cruel one, though.

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Acid Reindeer
just like when those creationists go, I'll pay you X number of dollars if you can prove evolution.

Do you have the links to the Creationist Challenge?
I would think they want you to turn a Chimp into Rush Limbaugh live on TV. I don't think they would accept bacteria adapting in a dish.

The Randi Challenge is very tough.
But I knew a guy who said he could "move a pencil with his mind".

So I tried to set it up, and of course, he backed out.

I have contacted Randi about that show. I bet Penn & Teller have tried to get it going.
Why not have a $10 Million Paranormal Challenge?
Try to prove a Psychic Power, psychokinesis, etc, right down the list.
It would be amazing...

PS:
James Randi is a great guy, but if he BUSTS you trying to scam him, or lie, he will tear you a new one.
Randi is best going after the scammers, like Uri Geller, who is a flat out conartist.
He is a bit indelicate with True Believers, and he knows it.

But Randi cut his teeth exposing scammers, so that is what he is best at, and that is why the scammers spend so much time lying about James Randi and his Challenge, as it exposes their scam, which is paying their bills!

Michael Shermer is more gentle and humanistic, he's the Good Cop, Randi is more the Bad Cop, but he's Good too!
[www.skeptic.com]

[b:edb2773887]You know what I'd love to see? Borat interviewing Icke. 8) [/b:edb2773887]

I second that