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Rama Das (slave name)

Acid, zelig, too, You guys just rush in to rip it down, you rip down Credo Mutwa (Acid) based on nothing but your little idea that indigenous peoples are deluded.

The real reason ALL of you need to tear this stuff to shreds is because you need to feel superior to something threatening, something that seems to contradict your idea of reality.

Oh come on Rama -- lighten up. I never said a thing about Credo or indigenous people! All you know about me is that I fell into the cult you grew up in and got out. My experiences led me to an understanding of how and why we take on certain belief systems.

I should have made my point more clear, and less tongue in cheek. We ALL have a tendency, as human beings, to be deluded or forums like this would cease to exist. How this happens has a lot to do with how our brains work. Terms like doublethink, cognitive dissonance, inattentional blindness, conflabulation (honest falsehood) are real phenomenon within the whole spectrum of politics, religion, and philosophy (right and left). We need to be aware of these tendencies within ourselves as well as in others.

When sorting out information we also should consider the total environment in which it is presented. On one hand you don’t want to “throw the baby out with the bath water” because great ideas can also come in funny packages. On the other hand, you want to have credible witnesses. Partial truths, no matter how impeccably true they are, can lead to very dangerous falsehoods when sewn together improperly.

I personally draw the line when it comes to lizard people. As for other ideas, I either do not have enough information or chose not to share my thoughts on the subject in this forum. I also like to joke around and laugh.

The “scepdic” links were only for specific definitions (well worth the read) and not to promote a specific skeptical world view.

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zelig
DOUBLETHINK KNIHTELBOUD
Cognitive Dissonance
Inattentional Blindness
Honest Falsehood
Confabulation

Seems our brains are hard-wired to create mind fiction.

[b:d5e2321ac5]“It is an unsettling thought that perhaps all our conscious mind ever does is dream up stories in an attempt to make sense of our world.”

“The possibility is left open that in the most extreme case all of the people may confabulate all of the time.”
(New Scientist/Everyday Fairytales/7 October 2006)[/b:d5e2321ac5]

[u:d5e2321ac5][b:d5e2321ac5]con•fab•u•late [/b:d5e2321ac5][/u:d5e2321ac5]
2. [b:d5e2321ac5]create memory of supposed past events: to give fictitious accounts of past events, believing they are true, in order to cover a gap in the memory [/b:d5e2321ac5]caused by a medical condition such as dementia or Korsakoff's syndrome
[Early 17th century. < Latin confabulat- , [b:d5e2321ac5]past participle of confabulari "talk together" < fabula (see fable)[/b:d5e2321ac5] Encarta World English Dictionary

[skepdic.com]
[skepdic.com]

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Rama Das (slave name)

If you are mature, should there be any danger in taking in this information?

zelig, I said ACID said the stuff about indegenous people (I put his name in brackets, could be unclear), I meant you just showed up and started making all the same weak jabs at David that everyone else does.

I think these reactions/actions are based on the most superficial interaction with his work, usually just based on hearing that he talks about reptilian humanoid creatures.

Zelig, are you not taking a very general analysis and placing it on Icke without any real understanding of his work, his background, where his various information comes from?

I assume that is a huge yes, and all I need to say what i did.

I'll always love you, too.

As I posted way back when this thread began I had read some of Icke's The Biggest Secret and he lost me on the whole reptillian thing. Seeing that this thread has a few people I have become acquainted with either personally or through their writings in the forum and respect as thoughtful and intelligent individuals making sensible if opposing analysis it has encouraged me to have another look at Icke's work. So yeah I have actually learned something.

There is nothing worse than a skeptic, not because thay like examine and deconstruct seemingly everything but because people that label themselves skeptics and join skeptic organisations are no more open minded or open to considering alternative facts or theories than 'christians' or 'devotees'. They are people that have already committed themselves to a distinct theology which invalidates any claim to being the free and enlightened intellectuals that many skeptics like to present themselves as being. The mantra of skeptics is "show me the proof" but they have a tendency to ignore that there are issues on which they commonly poo poo any attempt at contradiction which they are not able to prove without resorting to placing a lot of faith in sources that are open to just as much imaginative fiction and motives to support a particular agenda. For example on the moon landing skeptics will point to the video which hoaxers believe has been faked. Neither side was actually there, even those with the access to the most powerful telescopes in the world have said they could not see the astronauts up there (apparently they were on the other side). There is numerous scientific evidence that it is not possible to get to the moon. Personally I don't have particularly strong views or dedication to the subject, but I accept that it is impossible to travel through the layer of radiation with suits that amounted to little more than tinfoil and I say well if they could do it then why don't they do it again? In every documentary I have seen that allows both sides to have their say the only rebuttal has been to cast aspersions onto the mental faculties of hoax believers.

Skeptics are not immune to glossing over possible alternatives or structuring their truths to fit the expectations of a particular audience. Likewise they are not immune from being accepted and held up as authorative simply because the facts they present are within the comfort zones of individuals who desire validation for particular beliefs.

David Icke is certainly on the extreme side of conspiracy theorists, but skeptics are the other end of the spectrum. I think that most who find their way to this forum have experienced, or at the very least are wary of the personal dangers and impediments of totalitarian theology and fanaticism. I am sure that there are skeptic cults out there recruiting bright eyed luddities assured of the fact that they hold the absolute truth and feeling superior to the rest of the ignorami (the skeptical equivalent of demons) which are no less harmful than any other cult out there. Most also seem to accept that we should look at who is telling us something before we decide if they are worth listening to, and what their gain is from making others believe it.

Icke was a former professional soccer player forced into retirement and then sports announcer who ventured into politics for the Bristish Greens Party. He was expelled from the Greens for anti-semitism, neo-fascism and the reptile theories. His personal history besides the point that he himself admits to being diagnosed as a paranoid schitzophrenic shows signs of God delusions - he developed an interest in New Age theology "dressed in turquoise, and began to call himself the "son of godhead", covering up less appealing elements of his history as he developed more of a following (such as being a Holocaust denier in his self published book '...and the truth shall set you free') and appears to have serious symptoms of guru-itis

On March 27, 1991 Icke held a press conference to announce: "I am a channel for the Christ spirit. The title was given to me very recently by the Godhead

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David Icke is not alone. He is a small industry in a large and lucrative market of often well-to do New Age boomers. He has several web sites, an e-magazine, his own publishing house, and at least 9 books and 4 videotapes to his credit. He is constantly on the road, touring North America, Europe, Australia, South Africa, the Pyramids, and elsewhere. In the last five years he has spoken in Vancouver as many times, and across Canada he can turn out substantial audiences. His organizers claim he had 1,000 people out to hear him at his last gig in Vancouver, and he hopes to fill the Vogue Theatre on March 19. It's a large milieu that can afford the hefty prices Icke charges - up to $67 to attend a lecture, forty to fifty dollars for videotapes - and that generates a sizeable income for Icke and his message of conspiracism, fear and hate.
To organize all this, Icke has developed an international network of people who work with him and for him. They book the dates, churn out the posters and press releases, do the advance work, pick him up at the airport, get him to the hotel, introduce him, and get him back to his flight on time. They also show clearly why David Icke is a dangerous man, because they underscore his politics in an unmistakable way.

[www.publiceye.org]

Just because he does not appear to recruit anyone it is possible that Icke is shrewd enough to have realised that open recruitment and organisation is the easiest means to target criticism and undermine a cult, (a tactic that has been employed to some level of success with Science of Identity whose frequent response to criticism is to claim that they are infact not a religion). Anthony Robbins (that self help guy with the scary teeth) has been accussed of running a cult or at the very least whipping up a cult-like following - the only criteria really is to make your own brand of something people can believe in.

There is much talk from Icke about expanding consciousness and finding peace "But one incredibly intriguing aspect of David's presentation is his soulution... He says we are all powerful spiritual beings capable of waking up and transcending this control through focusing on love. , And that the time to do that is right now... " There are talks by Icke on this level here: [www.newsforthesoul.com] Seems very krishna-esque to me.

I would agree with Rama that Icke's books are not total garbage and that there would be some information of value contained in them, if only because they offer some direction, through the listed sources and references, to examine alternative schools of thought for one's self, but surely there are more stable and proven sources to draw from. As he has pointed out Alex Jones is very good.

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zelig
[b:ecfdc2f33d]DOUBLETHINK KNIHTELBOUD[/size:ecfdc2f33d]
Cognitive Dissonance
Inattentional Blindness
Honest Falsehood
Confabulation[/b:ecfdc2f33d]

you forgot negative hallucination... you know, when your brain censors out information that it perceives.

cognitive dissonance happens when you do notice a discrepancy so it doesn't really belong there.

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Rama Das (slave name)
I think these reactions/actions are based on the most superficial interaction with his work, usually just based on hearing that he talks about reptilian humanoid creatures.

not a minor factor. if he can believe that last part, he can pretty much believe anything.

oh, and, you wrongly called me "he".

Unfortunately, the idea of Skeptic is being confused with the concept Cynic.
A Cynic has his mind made up before he sees the facts.
A true Skeptic, has the most open-mind possible, and is willing to consider ANY idea or hypothesis, no matter how insane it sounds.
But then the true Skeptic carefully applies the tools of critical thinking, to try and figure things out as best as possible, knowing that nothing can ever be 100% certain.
Carl Sagan explains this all wonderfully in the book, The Demon Haunted World, which you can buy used for a few bucks.
Here is a chapter of the book called..
[b:e6bda0487e]The Fine Art of Baloney Detection [/b:e6bda0487e]by Carl Sagan from The Demon-Haunted World
[www.positiveatheism.org]


I do find it depressing that the human mind seems wired up to believe almost anything. Humans seem to literally be able to believe ANYTHING is true and "real" even when it is simply an imaginary or delusional construct. This is one of the main aspects of the human mind that cult leaders exploit, they can make almost anything up out of thin air, and if they promote it enough, many people will simply believe it. Too bad critical thinking was not taught in the schools, so every kid would have some Thinking Tools to help in their lives.


That being said, the Moon Landing Hoax, is the ultimate hoax. The moon landings happened, and that has been beaten to death.
[www.badastronomy.com]

[www.skeptic.com]

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Some people believe that skepticism is the rejection of new ideas, or worse, they confuse “skeptic” with “cynic” and think that skeptics are a bunch of grumpy curmudgeons unwilling to accept any claim that challenges the status quo. This is wrong. Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas — no sacred cows allowed. In other words, skepticism is a method, not a position. Ideally, skeptics do not go into an investigation closed to the possibility that a phenomenon might be real or that a claim might be true. When we say we are “skeptical,” we mean that we must see compelling evidence before we believe.

Skepticism has a long historical tradition dating back to ancient Greece, when Socrates observed: “All I know is that I know nothing.” But this pure position is sterile and unproductive and held by virtually no one. If you were skeptical about everything, you would have to be skeptical of your own skepticism. Like the decaying subatomic particle, pure skepticism uncoils and spins off the viewing screen of our intellectual cloud chamber.

Modern skepticism is embodied in the scientific method, which involves gathering data to formulate and test naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena. A claim becomes factual when it is confirmed to such an extent it would be reasonable to offer temporary agreement. But all facts in science are provisional and subject to challenge, and therefore skepticism is a method leading to provisional conclusions. Some claims, such as water dowsing, ESP, and creationism, have been tested (and failed the tests) often enough that we can provisionally conclude that they are not valid. Other claims, such as hypnosis, the origins of language, and black holes, have been tested but results are inconclusive so we must continue formulating and testing hypotheses and theories until we can reach a provisional conclusion.

The key to skepticism is to continuously and vigorously apply the methods of science to navigate the treacherous straits between “know nothing” skepticism and “anything goes” credulity.

I have read several of David Icke's books, as I knew 2 otherwise somewhat "sane" people who were talking about some very weird shit, and I wanted to know what was going on.
David Icke very cleary states he was diagnosed as a Paranoid Schizophrenic, which of course he states is false, as he REALLY CAN communicate with other dimensions of reality, and there REALLY IS a vast global conspiracy.
If you look carefully at what the diagnosis is for PS, then it pretty much matches up with what Icke is writing about.
[www.schizophrenia.com]

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These persons are very suspicious of others and often have grand schemes of persecution at the root of their behavior. Halluciations, and more frequently delusions, are a prominent and common part of the illness.

[/color:7e15169da8]

As far as the 2 people I know, it seems they can "function" ok in their lives, but Icke has sorta taken place of the "religion" area of their mind, and they also are dealing with some mental health issues.

Just be very cautious, about all these types of vast Conspiracies and weird alternate realities. It can easily spin out of control, and people can lose it. But of course, anyone who is anywhere close to losing it, won't even hear the words that what they are believing might just be imagination, or even a delusion.

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Acid Reindeer

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Rama Das (slave name)
I think these reactions/actions are based on the most superficial interaction with his work, usually just based on hearing that he talks about reptilian humanoid creatures.

not a minor factor. if he can believe that last part, he can pretty much believe anything.

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The Anticult
Unfortunately, the idea of Skeptic is being confused with the concept Cynic.
A Cynic has his mind made up before he sees the facts.
A true Skeptic, has the most open-mind possible, and is willing to consider ANY idea or hypothesis, no matter how insane it sounds.

Skepticism is a good thing yes, and as you describe and is backed up in your link, very eloquently and convincingly, neccessary, intelligent and valuable. I consider myself to be skeptical. I am pretty nosey about the origins of things and like to search for as much information as possible. I like to hear alternating points of view.

What I was specifically referring to was as I said those who identify as skeptics and follow the theology of skepticism as if it is their religion. Among them are the most closed minded individuals that I have ever met.

There are certain things that can not be proven one way or the other but that does not mean that any skeptic that I have ever met has conceded this. They are prepared to fight to the death as hard as any religionist if you dare to dispute that God exists that absolutley nothing of any supernatural nature exists. James Randi is a professional skeptic (and a leader in the skeptic cult) and there is a lot of information on-line about how he structures his research into the paranormal so that there is absolutely no chance that he will ever be proven wrong. Of course that is subject to what you want to believe :wink:

I sincerely question how open minded skeptics can be when they only focus on setting out to prove that anything supernatural does not exist and confirm that pre-exsting opinions of the status quo.

[b:75f1b74553]Conspiracy happens. [/b:75f1b74553][/size:75f1b74553]

Conspiracy theories are exactly as they are named - as yet unproven, but there is also conspiracy fact. That which was admonished decades ago as the ideas of the crazy, imbecilic or stoned has now been proven and officially acknowledged.

1. Tunnels under Washington - once reviled as paranoid fantasy - proven fact

2. Tuskagee Syphillis Experiment - considered to be black propoganda and paranoia - now fact

3. LSD and mind control testing by the FBI - denied denied denied, now accepted history

4. FBI watching celebrities - officially denied, now the records to prove it are publically available

BTW - I have seen the Bad Astronomy site - I have seen them all. It does not convince me, but I consider it outside the scope of this forum and impolite to everyone else to get into it here, plus as I said I don't have any dedication to it. I was simply trying to provide an example regarding skeptics.[/size:75f1b74553]

technically, a cynic means a person who suspects ulterior motives on the part of a person or organization that protrays themselves as having altruistic goals.