Oh, I have a bit. What it comes down to is, did He REALLY mean what He said, or was He always speaking figuratively? Luke 14 is some stiff medicine and one must have "ears to hear" in order to recieve it. Does one REALLY trust God, or does one not? I'm not gonna preach or argue with anybody here, and probably won't post any more, or at least for awhile longer. I for one think He said what He meant and He meant what He said. Plain as the nose on your face. Non-ambiguous.

Quote
zeuszor
Oh, I have a bit. What it comes down to is, did He REALLY mean what He said, or was He always speaking figuratively? Luke 14 is some stiff medicine and one must have "ears to hear" in order to recieve it. Does one REALLY trust God, or does one not? I'm not gonna preach or argue with anybody here, and probably won't post any more, or at least for awhile longer. I for one think He said what He meant and He meant what He said. Plain as the nose on your face. Non-ambiguous.

Zeuszor,

I, for one, think Jesus certainly meant all the things he said in the Scriptures. I just do not think Ole/Trinity has a monopoly on how it is interpreted. Indeed, my relationship with God is much better since I left Trinity Foundation and found my way into a healthier version of Christianity.

I can see that you are struggling with the doctrine. It all seems to make perfect sense--especially while you are still there. It is like a monkey trap, impossible to think your way out of. I have no doubt that you are sincere in your hunger to know God, to be involved in the purest, most intense expression of the Gospel that you can find. That is the way I was, and that is what kept me there for so long. The only pointer I can give you is that it is important to let the whole of Scripture speak, and not to fall into the trap of "proof texting." If you want to understand the meaning of anything Jesus said, you have to take it in the context of all that he said. It is more work, but it is the only way to keep from being led off into spiritual tangents. We are praying for you.

This is to be my last post here. It's getting old going back and forth. I will continue to read what others post though. In farewell, I ask you to read John 12:44-50, and pay attention paid to verse 48: "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." Is Jesus not saying that His words are the standard by which we will be judged on the last day?
Jesus says that those who heard his teachings and disobeyed them will be like a foolish person who built on sand, and then the house was destroyed in the storm. (Matthew 7:24-28). Isn't this also "a closed system of logic" that one cannot think one's way out of? It looks pretty plain to me.

[i:3326c90b78]Isn't this also "a closed system of logic" that one cannot think one's way out of? It looks pretty plain to me.[/i:3326c90b78]

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here, Zeuszor. Are you saying that, because Jesus spoke authoritatively, anyone else who does so must also be right? Or was there (as I believe) something unique about Jesus and his message?

I have been listening to Ole Anthony's teachings for a couple of years now. I have been in correspondence with Gary Buckner who is a member at Trinity and Ole a brief few times. I have paid close attention to Ole in the news and spent hours listening to his teaching. I have never visted them in Dallas. I have not read Wendy J. Duncan's book.

Having said that, I am disturbed at the allegations being made towards Ole and the Trinity Foundation. If you want to call Ole's teaching bizarre and authoritarian, then you might as well do away with everything the Apostle Paul said. What Ole teaches is one single thing: Jesus Christ in you, the hope of glory. He does not give place to "the flesh" nor give credit to man as far as I can tell. Does Ole "proof-text" as his accusers say? It is true that he appears on the surface to quote scripture and then launch into his own ideas. The truth in my opinion is far from that. I believe he speaks with a very precise understanding of the scriptures. He teaches that you are not the source of knowledge, but rather the conduit for it as is revealed by the Spirit of Christ. He teaches that the carnal-mind is enmity with God.(Romans 8:7) That is why he teaches that your mind is the anti(instead-of)Christ. It is not a method to systematically break down egos for the sake of his control. He teaches very strongly that the Old Testament is full of "types" that are shadows of Christ and the spiritual reality that now is. The accusations that he is some heretic leading a pseudo-christian cult are unfounded.

In all the recordings I have listened to, I have never once heard Ole tell someone what to believe, but rather I have heard him continually challenge people to search things out for themselves. That is not something a cult leader does. A cult leader does not encourage you to question what they say. Furthermore, Ole is not a persuasive personality as the Duncan's claim. Rather he appears irritable in recent years, likely due to the tremendous physical pain he has been in due to his health condition. He makes fun of people, but people make fun of him. It does not appear controlling. He is not attractive, smooth, or deceptive as we are led to believe. Rather Ole is in the light, and exposes himself entirely - whether it is attractive or not.

Ole Anthony is not and should not be the author of anyone's faith, but he is an added witness to that faith we have in common.

Currently, I am believing that the individuals who are causing the real destruction here are the Duncans. I believe the real twisting that is going on here is coming from their end. I am however willing for my beliefs to change if you can provide real evidence that Trinity is a cult. As far as I can see, that accusation is totally false. Having said that, I would like to read the book. I would like to find out what the big deal is regarding these "hot-seats." I have heard they were fairly intense, but intended to be beneficial for those who wanted it. I do not know enough though to say anything conclusive regarding this matter.

I have never seen an organisation which is more open to scrutiny and being questioned as the Trinity Foundation. Don't believe the accusations you are hearing against them until something truly substantial is shown.

Doug, I understand you want me to read the book. I would like to. On the other hand, I want to know that it is worth buying. I have to have some reason to believe that it is a truthful account regarding Trinity. I need to believe to some degree that you are not just making money for the sake of your wife's bad experience. I have read your posts on all the forums I could find, including your response to John Rutledge's rebuttal.(I believe it was him) I am unconvinced that your account is truthful.

Concerning quotes from your own website, I see a lack of truth. Specifically in the charges made regarding the teaching at Trinity. Here are some quotes from your site, namely from those who have reviewed the book:

"The book describes the abusive practices and strange beliefs that define Trinity Foundation as a cult..."

"She has done a difficult thing: made the process by which she was seduced into membership into a highly authoritarian group with bizarre personal reinterpretations of scripture seem both understandable and reasonable."

"Her revealing chapter on the doctrinal underpinnings that were used to justify such spiritual and psychological abuse will be helpful to former members of other religious groups."

Now the point I want to make is this Doug. As far as I have heard in the doctrines and teachings specific to Trinity Foundation, which I know pretty well, I do not find grounds to call them "bizarre personal reinterpretations" or "strange beliefs that define Trinity Foundation as a cult." You could make those same statements about any group teaching orthodox Christianity, which by the way, I do not believe Ole's teaching deviates from. I do not see any area where their doctrines have been twisted from what we consider "the essentials" of Biblical Christianity. I find the charges on your website unfounded and misleading. That is why I make the statement that I believe the real twisting is coming from your end. I understand hurtful experience can occur in communities, and that Ole and others may have done some things to you and your wife that did not feel very good. I am not arguing with you about that. However, if those reviews represent what the book says about Trinity's teaching, it does not lead me to believe there is justification for buying it.

[i:4025b4a8e2]Doug, I understand you want me to read the book. I would like to. On the other hand, I want to know that it is worth buying. I have to have some reason to believe that it is a truthful account regarding Trinity. I need to believe to some degree that you are not just making money for the sake of your wife's bad experience.[/i:4025b4a8e2]

We have published this book at our own expense, and, at this point, are well short of even breaking even on it financially. Our only desire is to tell the truth about Trinity Foundation and our experience there. Also, my wife wrote about [b:4025b4a8e2]our[/b:4025b4a8e2] experience, not just hers. In fact, she was the pen for dozens of former members who are too damaged or too fearful to be able to tell their own stories.

[i:4025b4a8e2]I have read your posts on all the forums I could find, including your response to John Rutledge's rebuttal.(I believe it was him) I am unconvinced that your account is truthful.[/i:4025b4a8e2]

And yet, our account [b:4025b4a8e2]is[/b:4025b4a8e2] truthful.

[i:4025b4a8e2]Concerning quotes from your own website, I see a lack of truth. Specifically in the charges made regarding the teaching at Trinity. Here are some quotes from your site, namely from those who have reviewed the book:

"The book describes the abusive practices and strange beliefs that define Trinity Foundation as a cult..."

"She has done a difficult thing: made the process by which she was seduced into membership into a highly authoritarian group with bizarre personal reinterpretations of scripture seem both understandable and reasonable."

"Her revealing chapter on the doctrinal underpinnings that were used to justify such spiritual and psychological abuse will be helpful to former members of other religious groups."

Now the point I want to make is this Doug. As far as I have heard in the doctrines and teachings specific to Trinity Foundation, which I know pretty well, I do not find grounds to call them "bizarre personal reinterpretations" or "strange beliefs that define Trinity Foundation as a cult."[/i:4025b4a8e2]

But, Nathan, you do not know Trinity or it’s teachings as well as I do—not by a long shot. I was a member of Trinity Foundation from the time I was 21 until I left at age 42. I was a Bible study teacher, one of the elders, an employee, a [i:4025b4a8e2]Door[/i:4025b4a8e2] contributor, a member of the board of directors, and Ole's roommate for about 10 years. I think that trumps the fact that that you have listened to a few (edited) Bible studies over the internet.

[i:4025b4a8e2]You could make those same statements about any group teaching orthodox Christianity, which by the way, I do not believe Ole's teaching deviates from.[/i:4025b4a8e2]

Whether you are able, from your distant perch, to see how Ole’s doctrine deviates from orthodox Christianity or not, in fact, it does. I used to be a teacher of Ole’s doctrine, and now I am an orthodox Christian believer. There is a great deal of difference. It is difficult in this type of forum to go into all the detail of why this is so, but there is a chapter in my wife’s book ("Twisted Scriptures") that covers this quite well.

[i:4025b4a8e2]I do not see any area where their doctrines have been twisted from what we consider "the essentials" of Biblical Christianity. I find the charges on your website unfounded and misleading. That is why I make the statement that I believe the real twisting is coming from your end.[/i:4025b4a8e2]

Again, Ole/Trinity’s doctrine does indeed deviate from orthodox, Biblical Christianity, but it takes a little bit of time to develop the argument why this is so. Wendy does and excellent job of laying this out in her book, and I do not want to repeat the argument here. If you are truly interested, you will investigate this by reading the book.

[i:4025b4a8e2]I understand hurtful experience can occur in communities, and that Ole and others may have done some things to you and your wife that did not feel very good. I am not arguing with you about that. However, if those reviews represent what the book says about Trinity's teaching, it does not lead me to believe there is justification for buying it.[/i:4025b4a8e2]

You can either buy it or not at your own discretion, Nathan. However, it is disingenuous of you to keep posting these apologies for Trinity when you lack the integrity to read for yourself what we are saying.

Let's hear from more ex-members, Doug.

Also, how come you do all of the talking? Wendy wrote the book.