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seeking
I agree with Mark and the Zeus. Counselor47 always tries to be too fair and balanced.

Hey, there are worse things than being fair and balanced.

I do not want to be in the position of defending Ole or Trinity Foundation, but I am uncomfortable with saying that someone is not saved, as I do not think that is up to us to judge. See Romans 10: 6-11 (RSV)

[b:a7c2ba5ffc]6: But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?" (that is, to bring Christ down)
7: or "Who will descend into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8: But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach);
9: because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10: For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
11: The scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame."[/b:a7c2ba5ffc]

Jesus also said that we can know the "sheep" from the "wolves", or (better) how to tell figs from thistles, by judging the [i:57b78c29f5]fruit.[/i:57b78c29f5] I don't have to explain that one to you. What not call evil, evil?

[b:57b78c29f5]Mat 7:15 ¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[/b:57b78c29f5]

So I don't feel bad in the least calling him a snake (or "viper" if you wish).
[i:57b78c29f5]He's an evil person.[/i:57b78c29f5] So I agree, it's NOT our place to judge who is saved or not, but we are allowed to be discerning and make reasonable inferences as based upon the fruits of a person's life and "ministry". I don't see them reaping a lot of "good fruit", do you?

I think it best to focus on the harm done to people by leaders and groups that abuse. We can all agree on that much. We will all get our reward some day.
cultaware

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zeuszor
I don't see them reaping a lot of "good fruit", do you?

Obviously, I think there are problems at Trinity. That is why I encouraged Wendy to write the book and why I started this thread. However, I did not do it so that I could condemn them or to stand in judgment of them. It is my hope that they will come to their senses, ask God to forgive them, make amends to the people they have hurt, and change their behavior. Until that happens I think it is necessary to warn others about them so that we limit the damage they do.

No, we're not rock-throwers (so to speak) but I for one feel that it is necessary and in the public interest for those know have the knowledge to speak out publicly and vociferously so that nobody else stumbles into that snake-pit. I wish your book had come out a few months earlier than it did, that way I could have been prevented form joining at all in the first place, and my life would not have been messed up as a result of my association with them. Hopefully this furor will present somebody else from stumbling into the psychic ambush that is Trinity Foundation.

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zeuszor
Hopefully this furor will present somebody else from stumbling into the psychic ambush that is Trinity Foundation.

I believe it already has.

Really? It makes me happy to know that.

Scripture tells us to warn others about heretics and to avoid them. ( If I had a Bible handy I would cite two references to prove it.)
Wendy and Doug have done the Scriptural thing by warning others about Ole and his cult.
Perhaps I go over the line when I assert that someone is not saved. Perhaps not.
There's nothing wrong with hoping Ole and his followers will see the error of his/their ways. Wendy, Doug and Zeuszor are three followers that have had their eyes opened by the Lord. I do, however, believe that Scripture shows that heretics do NOT change, and do not repent.
The one amazing thing about Ole is that he's got such a big mouth that he has absolutely no reservations about saying what he believes - and ALL of it contradicts Scripture. He's not just a rambling heretic. He's a SYSTEMATIC HERETIC. His idiotic morning Bible study notes are on the net for all the world to see. He's literally turned Christianity inside-out, back-wards, upside-down and sprinkled it with a hefty dose of LSD. His entire theology uses Biblical terminology but it is completely NUTS!!
I do believe he will NEVER repent and that the reaping he has sown will be absolutely horrifying.
Consider the end of Jim Jones.
I'm not saying TFI will end like Jonestown, BUT, the followers who don't have their eyes opened by the Holy Spirit and repent, will surely meet with a terrible end.
We MUST pray for them!

Mark Scheiderer

I can see where you are coming from Doug in what you say about Ole being a lone ranger type. You could say he is uncomprimising in what he believes. I guess it depends on how you interpret it. There are some good questions about where true accountability is there that I think you have raised. It is not healthy if you can't be submitted to others, but you have to discern who is someone you ought to be submitted to. If you just need to be more radical than everyone else, then you can lose sight of the greatest commandments of Christ which are to love God with your whole being and to love others as yourself. I guess it takes discernment to know what the case is with Ole. I also appreciate you saying that it is not wise to judge another's salvation. I think the passage you cited worked well to demsonstrate that.

As it is, I don't see, Mark where the teaching really sounds like mainstream evangelical doctrine. Actually, many evangelicals don't seem to recognize it. My experience has been that Ole's teaching appears far out and even heretical at first, but with deeper examination it seems more plausible biblically. Your judgements about Ole's teaching suggest that you have not listened to it very much. You don't seem too concerned about getting the facts straight though if it works against others. I think that was evident at least when you claimed that Jackie Alnor had recanted her position and you accused me of lying about that. Even though Bill Alnor exposed your misinformation, you never apologized to them or I for your fault in that. I don't want to hold it against you, but it says something about how trustworthy your words are.

Funny you say that about the acid Mark. One time when I was there I asked Ole if he'd ever partaken of it, and he grinned and said no, but that he had found "something better": he told me he used to eat 'shrooms sometimes. How he knew that mushrooms are"better" than acid I can't figure, if he'd never dropped acid before, you know? That's what I used to wonder too, if Ole'd thought this stuff up after smoking something in his pipe other than cherry tobacco or what? It was really tripped out. But Ole's probably expanded his mind too much anyway, right? C47 or cultaware, do you know anything about OA's past use of psychedelics or any other hallucinogens?

"Wow man, like, we're really all the same person anyway, man. Far out..."