Hello, Nathan. I am happy to see you back on the forum. I think the discussion is actually more interesting when there is someone playing devil's advocate, as long as you can remember to be appropriate and respectful of others. I think it is perfectly okay for you to defend Trinity, but it is not okay to attack or demean us or other former members. Also, understand that our experience is our experience, and it is not okay to deny that. It is perfectly okay to disagree with our conclusions about Trinity, though.

About [i:bca433bf4b]The Door[/i:bca433bf4b]: I did a lot with [i:bca433bf4b]The Door[/i:bca433bf4b] when I was there at Trinity, and I mostly enjoyed it. Sometimes it was funny, though I think the stuff contributed by the freelancers who were not part of Trinity was generally the better stuff. Since leaving, I find I cannot really read [i:bca433bf4b]The Door[/i:bca433bf4b]. It all just feels toxic to me--too much anger, too much self-righteousness. I guess it's good that they are concerned with social justice, but I wish they were a little more concerned with basic human decency.

I think the stuff that happened with Chernuff back there was an emotional reaction on her part. I think the phrase "murder" as she saw in the notes was likely as you said Doug, the Trinity definition, which is to neglect someone. I don't think her posts were as you said 'an overt attempt by a cult to intimidate its former members into silence.' I just think she was upset and maybe felt like you guys wanted the notes destroyed to try and cover up your past sins.(I cat't say if that is true) I do think if TFI was really a manipulative cult, they would have tried to use those things against you much more.

I would also like to say that the firewalking incident sounds like it was a real dumb idea. I think that if any former members were hurt by that, TFI should make the effort to reconcile, and not expect you to come on to their turf for that.

NathanA,
Good to hear from you but to be honest I am surprised.

I agree with you that Cherenuff's reaction was an emotional one. That doesn't excuse what she said. And who among us wants his past sins brought up? Do you NathanA? Just the fact that Ole kept these notes and beyond that gave some of them to a reporter he thought he had in his pocket speaks volumes about why he kept them and the degree to which the notes were used against us. Even now no one from TF has publicly admitted that they were all or that any were destroyed. Should we trust them? Would you? What possible reason would Ole have for keeping these notes for so many years?

Saying that the firewalking debacle was just a real dumb idea lets Ole and the elders off the hook. In fact it is interesting you use the term [i:d528ccc58f]dumb[/i:d528ccc58f] to describe it because that is the very term used by them shortly after the event in order to mimimize it. Manipulating a group of people to walk over hot coals who trust that you are leading them to a deeper walk with God is not dumb it is [b:d528ccc58f]evil[/b:d528ccc58f]. NathanA why do feel it nescessary to defend the evil done by this group?
cultaware

Excellent points, Cultaware.

There is a new book out by Phillip Zimbardo, [i:e539bbc9f1]The Lucifer Effect[/i:e539bbc9f1], that helps explain why cults behave as they do. Briefly, it has to do with systems of social pressure and control--perhaps most effective when carried out not by the leadership of a group but by the rank-and-file members.

I fully understand that cherenuff was not acting at the behest of the leaders in making the comments she did on this forum. She is not taken very seriously by the leaders, and they would not rely on her to be their spokesperson. Nevertheless, she was manifesting the culture of the group where the members try to curry favor from the leadership by rebuking dissenters. It is a toxic social system, and it is typical of what you find in cults.

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cultaware
NathanA,
Good to hear from you but to be honest I am surprised.

I agree with you that Cherenuff's reaction was an emotional one. That doesn't excuse what she said. And who among us wants his past sins brought up? Do you NathanA? Just the fact that Ole kept these notes and beyond that gave some of them to a reporter he thought he had in his pocket speaks volumes about why he kept them and the degree to which the notes were used against us. Even now no one from TF has publicly admitted that they were all or that any were destroyed. Should we trust them? Would you? What possible reason would Ole have for keeping these notes for so many years?

Saying that the firewalking debacle was just a real dumb idea lets Ole and the elders off the hook. In fact it is interesting you use the term [i:6baada8cf1]dumb[/i:6baada8cf1] to describe it because that is the very term used by them shortly after the event in order to mimimize it. Manipulating a group of people to walk over hot coals who trust that you are leading them to a deeper walk with God is not dumb it is [b:6baada8cf1]evil[/b:6baada8cf1]. NathanA why do feel it nescessary to defend the evil done by this group?
cultaware

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counselor47
Excellent points, Cultaware.

There is a new book out by Phillip Zimbardo, [i:6baada8cf1]The Lucifer Effect[/i:6baada8cf1], that helps explain why cults behave as they do. Briefly, it has to do with systems of social pressure and control--perhaps most effective when carried out not by the leadership of a group but by the rank-and-file members.

I fully understand that cherenuff was not acting at the behest of the leaders in making the comments she did on this forum. She is not taken very seriously by the leaders, and they would not rely on her to be their spokesperson. Nevertheless, she was manifesting the culture of the group where the members try to curry favor from the leadership by rebuking dissenters. It is a toxic social system, and it is typical of what you find in cults.

How or why you guys want to continue to haggle with Nathan is beyond me. I mean, with all due respect. Doesn't it bore you? Does me. It's plain that Nathan has no real interest in finding the truth at the heart of the matter, and has made up his mind to see what he wants to see about TFI. He never even spoke from a fully informed opinion in the first place anyway, not remotely. He's never even met these people face to face. If he really persists in believing and arguing in defense of TFI (as opposed to merely arguing for the sake of itself/"trolling") then he is a blind man who refuses to see, a fool. Why waste time arguing with him?

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NathanA
I'm still checking in here now and then. I don't have much to say though that I feel would be productive to this discussion. One thing I would say is that the last issue of the Wittenburg Door was excellent. The issue really focuses on responding to and loving the poor. It made me glad to read alot of it. I thought the "Last Word" written by Ole and Skippy was good too. So to me, I think you guys throw out the baby with the bathwater when you dump Trinity wholesale. Seems to me TFI has its priorities better placed than many churches when it comes to social justice issues.

I have had some problems with some of the stuff the Door has printed, ie. the nudie centrefold of W.V. Grant. But all in all I think the magazine is generally edifying.

Mormons are squeaky-clean, have a wholesome image, are well-established in this country and also host a slew of social-welfare programs. They are civic leaders and pillars of their communities. They say a lot of things that sound edifying. They also have until recently (in the last 30-odd years) a long history of institutionalized racism, sexism, polygamy, insular, clannish communities, highly aberrational theology and corrupt, abusive leadership. They believe that God once had a human body like us and that one day all worthy Mormon males can BECOME Gods. Mormons: nice on the outside, nasty on the inside. The only difference between TFI and a big-time cult like that (or another example being the JWs, for that matter) is time and $$$. Deception looks nice and sounds good (or "edifying" if oyu prefer) but it is still garbage. It looks like Ole did not lack the ambition to further isolate the TFI community, and therefore increase his control over it, at some points in its history. His bad, self-serving decisions along the way prevented that and it never did happen, right?

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zeuszor

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NathanA
I'm still checking in here now and then. I don't have much to say though that I feel would be productive to this discussion. One thing I would say is that the last issue of the Wittenburg Door was excellent. The issue really focuses on responding to and loving the poor. It made me glad to read alot of it. I thought the "Last Word" written by Ole and Skippy was good too. So to me, I think you guys throw out the baby with the bathwater when you dump Trinity wholesale. Seems to me TFI has its priorities better placed than many churches when it comes to social justice issues.

I have had some problems with some of the stuff the Door has printed, ie. the nudie centrefold of W.V. Grant. But all in all I think the magazine is generally edifying.

Mormons are squeaky-clean, have a wholesome image, are well-established in this country and also host a slew of social-welfare programs. They are civic leaders and pillars of their communities. They say a lot of things that sound edifying. They also have until recently (in the last 30-odd years) a long history of institutionalized racism, sexism, polygamy, insular, clannish communities, highly aberrational theology and corrupt, abusive leadership. They believe that God once had a human body like us and that one day all worthy Mormon males can BECOME Gods. Mormons: nice on the outside, nasty on the inside. The only difference between TFI and a big-time cult like that (or another example being the JWs, for that matter) is time and $$$. Deception looks nice and sounds good (or "edifying" if oyu prefer) but it is still garbage. It looks like Ole did not lack the ambition to further isolate the TFI community, and therefore increase his control over it, at some points in its history. His bad, self-serving decisions along the way prevented that and it never did happen, right?

I should have said that MormonISM looks good but is nasty on the inside. Sorry. I have no problem with Mormons as individuals.

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zeuszor
How or why you guys want to continue to haggle with Nathan is beyond me. I mean, with all due respect. Doesn't it bore you? Does me. It's plain that Nathan has no real interest in finding the truth at the heart of the matter, and has made up his mind to see what he wants to see about TFI. He never even spoke from a fully informed opinion in the first place anyway, not remotely. He's never even met these people face to face. If he really persists in believing and arguing in defense of TFI (as opposed to merely arguing for the sake of itself/"trolling") then he is a blind man who refuses to see, a fool. Why waste time arguing with him?

I think the discussion is more interesting as a dialectic. You need to have someone playing devil's advocate. Granted, it would be best if the person arguing Trinity's side was at least intellectually honest, but since Trinity refuses to come out and defend themselves we have to deal with who's here. I don't mind talking to Nathan as long as he tries to engage the questions in a respectful manner--though I acknowledge he has has some trouble doing so in the past. Maybe he can take a little more humble approach this time around.

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I just think she was upset and maybe felt like you guys wanted the notes destroyed to try and cover up your past sins.(I cat't say if that is true)

This is wrong on at least a couple of levels. First of all, it is speculation about someone's speculation about our motives. I cannot imagine a right-thinking person saying Ole had any legitimate reason for keeping those notes, and your little dig here about "our past sins" is an example of the kind of thing that got you in trouble before. If we were Roman Catholic we would confess our sins to a priest (who would not keep notes to hold over your head, by the way), but in the Trinity cult we did a group confession, instead. Presumably everybody has a few sins to confess, but the point of confession is supposed to be that you receive forgiveness and can then resolve to do better and put those sins behind you. That could never happen at Trinity.

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I do think if TFI was really a manipulative cult, they would have tried to use those things against you much more.

I played poker numerous times with Ole, and I know first hand how good he is at bluffing. The power of the notes would be lost if he had actually used them, because then every legitimate minister in Dallas would be outraged at his violating the seal of the confessional. However, the threat of them was a powerful thing--especially in the hands of people who have shown themselves to be so untrustworthy.

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I would also like to say that the firewalking incident sounds like it was a real dumb idea. I think that if any former members were hurt by that, TFI should make the effort to reconcile, and not expect you to come on to their turf for that.

The firewalking was probably one of the least hurtful things done by Trinity--it was almost nothing when compared to the horrific damage done to people by the hot seats. Should Trinity expect people to come to their turf to reconcile about those issues? Does Trinity even have any interest in reconciliation, or is their posturing with the Alnors and others on this point just more gaminess and manipulation?

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cultaware
NathanA,
Good to hear from you but to be honest I am surprised.

I agree with you that Cherenuff's reaction was an emotional one. That doesn't excuse what she said. And who among us wants his past sins brought up? Do you NathanA? Just the fact that Ole kept these notes and beyond that gave some of them to a reporter he thought he had in his pocket speaks volumes about why he kept them and the degree to which the notes were used against us. Even now no one from TF has publicly admitted that they were all or that any were destroyed. Should we trust them? Would you? What possible reason would Ole have for keeping these notes for so many years?

Here's an idea that I thought of when I was driving home earlier, an explanation, a theory, for why Ole kept those notes for all of those years. It's sort of for the same reason that a serial killer would keep an article of clothing, a ring, a necklace, a [i:890ac42896]trophy[/i:890ac42896]. Ole didn't keep those notes (I don't reckon) for psycho-sexual reasons like a sexual predator would masturbate over some article of his victim's clothing. Not exactly; it's more like extreme covetousness in OA's nature expressing itself as a desire to [i:890ac42896]possess totally[/i:890ac42896], and therefore [i:890ac42896]control[/i:890ac42896] his followers/victims. A very megalomaniacal character, very controlling and ruthless, he. This leads me to infer that he deliberately orchestrated the entire group around himself and therefore consciously and deliberately made himself the GOD, the idol of his own little parallel universe over there on the Block. He started his own cult on purpose. Those notes were for blackmail, emotional extortion. For power, and control. So that Ole could feel secure and safe and play God with people.