Zeuszor - thank you for sharing all of that. How amazing. What a journey! I thank God that you had the emotional and intellectual honesty to read Wendy Duncan's book. And I thank God that you weren't there that long - I think you probably would have been more entrenched.

Very interesting. Thanks again for telling us about it.

That's life, that's what people say.
You're riding' high in April,
Shot down in May.
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top in June.

That's life, funny as it seems.
Some people get their kicks,
Steppin' on dreams;
But I don't let it get me down,
'Cause this ol' word keeps getting around.

I've been a puppet, a pauper, a pirate,
A poet, a pawn and a king.
I've been up and down and over and out
And I know one thing:
Each time I find myself flat on my face,
I pick myself up and get back in the race.

That's life, I can't deny it,
I thought of quitting,
But my heart just won't buy it.
If I didn't think it was worth a try,
I'd roll myself up in a big ball and die.

Thanks for sharing your story, zeuszor. The thing that strikes me is that now that you have the luxury of distance and perspective to allow you to look at them objectively, some things that did not necessarily seem so bad while you were at Trinity are actually outrageous. For example, the idea that Ole would expect to be briefed about what was said in your sessions with your psychiatrist goes way beyond the pale, but that sort of thing is business as usual at Trinity.

I do feel bad for "Frank Bono," as I think he is a good man who just happens to be caught up in a toxically unhealthy religious system. Same thing about some of the others who are still there, including Pete. They are not bad people, but they are stuck in a bad environment.

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counselor47
Thanks for sharing your story, zeuszor. The thing that strikes me is that now that you have the luxury of distance and perspective to allow you to look at them objectively, some things that did not necessarily seem so bad while you were at Trinity are actually outrageous. For example, the idea that Ole would expect to be briefed about what was said in your sessions with your psychiatrist goes way beyond the pale, but that sort of thing is business as usual at Trinity.

I do feel bad for "Frank Bono," as I think he is a good man who just happens to be caught up in a toxically unhealthy religious system. Same thing about some of the others who are still there, including Pete. They are not bad people, but they are stuck in a bad environment.

Do you think that Ole is a "bad person"? Evil at his core? I do.

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zeuszor
Do you think that Ole is a "bad person"? Evil at his core? I do.

No, I don't think so. I believe that view is too simplistic. Ole has signifcant flaws and should not, IMHO, be in a position of spiritual leadership. However, what goes on at Trinity Foundation is a [b:2db590565f]group[/b:2db590565f] dynamic, and everyone there plays a role. I certainly played my role while I was there, and have since had to apologize and seek forgiveness from some people whom I hurt by my words and actions. Though he is the central character at Trinity, blaming everything on Ole is just a way for us to keep from examining our own choices and facing up to our own responsibility.

I do not mean to justify Ole, as I think he has made some bad choices, too, but I do not think we advance our understanding of what went wrong at Trinity by making Ole into a cartoon villain.

Cartoon villain, no.

Malignant of character, psychologically murderous, and a person that one should one warn others about associating with, yes.

[i:0dbf967b50]He's a bad man.[/i:0dbf967b50]

Maybe I'm looking at things in too black-and-white a fashion, but IMHO you're giving him way too much credit.

And that's not the same as not forgiving him, either. That's not the same as giving him grace.

Call a snake a snake, that's all.

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counselor47

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zeuszor
Do you think that Ole is a "bad person"? Evil at his core? I do.

No, I don't think so. I believe that view is too simplistic. Ole has signifcant flaws and should not, IMHO, be in a position of spiritual leadership. However, what goes on at Trinity Foundation is a [b:0e295e73a4]group[/b:0e295e73a4] dynamic, and everyone there plays a role. I certainly played my role while I was there, and have since had to apologize and seek forgiveness from some people whom I hurt by my words and actions. Though he is the central character at Trinity, blaming everything on Ole is just a way for us to keep from examining our own choices and facing up to our own responsibility.

I do not mean to justify Ole, as I think he has made some bad choices, too, but I do not think we advance our understanding of what went wrong at Trinity by making Ole into a cartoon villain.

Yeah, but Ole's the object of emulation. He's the main character, the guy everything orbits around. TFI is his mirror. Without Ole, there would be no TFI. Once he's gone, they'll likely all start to revert back more into their pre-cult identities, to one degree or another. And then TFI will fold eventually, and how many lives were damaged because of their complicity and apathy?

Yeah, it's a group dynamic, but on the other hand, OA orchestrated it a lot like David McKay and the JC: "Look at me! Look at me!" Like his real agenda is to say "F**k you" to a cruel world and always be the center of attention.

If we are supposed to keep this thread on topic, it is interesting how Zeuszor and Mark spent a whole page back there discussing my "true identity." I mention one inconsistancy in what Mark has said on this board and I have left topic and am personally attacking people. As for your curiosity about my me, I tell the truth. I work as a paint contractor and have to work at banks, businesses, post-offices, etc. that requires that I work evenings, and non-business hours at times. I live in Youngstown, Alberta, Canada. There is only one NathanA posting. Is that so hard to believe? And as for the idea that I am only apologizing for TFI, that may be true or maybe there is some objectivity I offer. Either way, is there really anything unethical about that if I sincerely believe there is less fault with Trinity than what is being said here?

I appreciate at very least you acknowledging Doug, that Mark was wrong in saying I lied about the Alnors. Yet I am the one being called a troll. This is complete nonsense.

The thing is, Nathan, that you do not know any of the people involved, have never met any of us face to face, you speak purely from your own uninformed opinion[i:cce662b834] as based on what you want to be true,[/i:cce662b834], totally uncritically believe all of the positive press that TFI has received, call us liars and unethical and sit there and basically say, "I don't believe you! I don't believe you!", insult us and sit on your holier-than-thou horse and generally make a nuisance of yourself. You bring nothing to the discussion except annoyance. You're, like, the LEAST objective person here.

All you really contribute is to call us liars and phony Christians and sit there and basically say, "I don't believe you! I don't believe you!" over and over and over. Great, don't believe us. So go on and don't believe us somewhere else. Maybe someday I'll be as spiritual as you.

RR is right; you make yourself look stupid and TFI look stupider. Quit embarrassing yourself and go away.

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And as for the idea that I am only apologizing for TFI, that may be true or maybe there is some objectivity I offer. Either way, is there really anything unethical about that if I sincerely believe there is less fault with Trinity than what is being said here?

That's a joke Nathan. You are NOT being objective. You are basically saying, "I don't believe it, so it must not be true!" You are the [i:04fe8a65b4]least[/i:04fe8a65b4] objective of us. Mark's never met them in person either, but when he spoke with PE over the phone, something tripped his gut and he became suspicious.
You have always approached it as if assuming that TFI has gotten a bum rap and are therefore their [i:04fe8a65b4]de facto [/i:04fe8a65b4] apologist.

The fact that TFI's only remaining defender is such an embarrassment to them is amazing to me. If I were them, I'd tell you to quit posting, because you make them look bad and make yourself look foolish. Objectivity, hah! That's a joke. What kind of fantasy world do you live in?