The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
NathanA
()
Date: February 01, 2007 04:09PM
Quote
However, you were saved by God, not by Trinity. God may have used them to sustain you for awhile, but your salvation is from God through Christ alone, not from TFI.
That is true for sure and obvious to me at least. I certainly don't give credit to Trinity for such things. Again I really think that is the essence of Ole's message, that God appears in the midst of very miserable human beings and is able to shine the light of Christ through that vessel. So there is this mystery that is almost paradoxical taking place. We call it redemption, that God makes something that of itself was used for worthless purposes into something that is useful to accomplish his good and perfect will. This message can be offensive because it rejects the notion that man is capable of anything good. That is why Ole has said the Gospel is bad news to mankind. Yet this is true so that in all things Christ would have pre-eminence.
So I percieve Ole Anthony to be someone who has recognized he is morally destitute, and has come to believe very passionately the only hope there really is, is that of Christ living in us. I think he is called spiritually abusive because in his view, one must recognize in the most complete way their own depravity before they can truly be grateful for the righteousness from God. I find that people sometimes think orthodox Christians focus too much on humanity's depravity too because they have not seen it fully in themselves. If and when a person does see their evil nature, the Gospel message is no longer offensive or "abusive," but rather is the greatest hope there is.
So the question really is, is it possible to cross a line when calling others to see their own sinfulness? And if so, has Ole done that? How would an outsider discern that people's self-righteousness was not just offended by Ole, but rather that he truly did do something destructive to them? (this is at least the point I have struggled to discern) :idea:
I am happier with the way our conversation is going by the way.
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
seeking
()
Date: February 01, 2007 09:49PM
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NathanAQuote
one must recognize in the most complete way their own depravity before they can truly be grateful for the righteousness from God.
I would agree with you on that point, Nathan. Crack addict or plain Jane screw-up, we all come to God equally unworthy. The beginning of a relationship with Christ starts with that first realization that we are totally depraved. But the good news and yes, it is good news, is that the King of the Universe loves us and provides a new life through His Son.
Consider this. A small child lives with her drug-addicted prostitute mother in abject poverty and filth. Finally, Child Protective Services takes her out of that miserable home and places her with a couple, her new family. Would loving parents tell her every day that she was a wretched, horrible little girl who deserved to live as she did in her old life? The child will always remember where she came from and what her old life was like. But if she fails to see that she has a new life, how does that affect her?
The most incredible, awesome, miraculous truth is that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us and delivered us out of shame of our old lives. Because of this grace gift, we are the people of God--blessed, healed --who have been given a new life.
It seems to me that Trinity Foundation has overemphasized the sinfulness of man which may be why there is a community with so little love, joy, and hope.
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
cultaware
()
Date: February 01, 2007 10:23PM
Quote:
I have to believe these things irregardless of TFI, but I just don't see how they could understand this message so profoundly without living it.
NathanN,
It happen's all the time in all denominations. Just because someone understands this message of "Christ in you" makes them no less human. In fact that knowledge may appeal to one's pride.Salvation is not through knowledge alone. That is what Gnostics believe.Satan understood but chose to rebel, so can we. A little old grandmother who goes to mass evey day and prays her Rosary may be closer to God than Ole or the Pope. I wish you well Nathan.
cultaware
I have to believe these things irregardless of TFI, but I just don't see how they could understand this message so profoundly without living it.
NathanN,
It happen's all the time in all denominations. Just because someone understands this message of "Christ in you" makes them no less human. In fact that knowledge may appeal to one's pride.Salvation is not through knowledge alone. That is what Gnostics believe.Satan understood but chose to rebel, so can we. A little old grandmother who goes to mass evey day and prays her Rosary may be closer to God than Ole or the Pope. I wish you well Nathan.
cultaware
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
counselor47
()
Date: February 01, 2007 11:11PM
Quote
I am happier with the way our conversation is going by the way.
I am, too. I would like to point out, though, that the reason the conversation has changed is because of you. Now, it seems like you are being more authentic and trying to write some of what you really think and feel, and not just trying to put us down. I appreciate that.
One thing I have to take issue with you on is that you seem to be implying that we left Trinity Foundation because we didn't like the preaching. That is not true. The fact that Ole/Trinity aggressively preached the cross was not why we left. I sat under that teaching for 20+ years, and would have gladly continued for 20 more if the other issues has not surfaced. [b:3faccf4de3]Trinity's preaching of the cross is not what caused us to leave. Trinity's failure to live up to what they taught is what caused us to leave.[/b:3faccf4de3] Cultaware is exactly right when he says that simply knowing things is not salvific. "Knowledge puffeth up." In short, we left because the whole place was rife with hypocrisy. Though I have come to have some issues with what is taught there, those only came later once I had separated and could look at things objectively--but that is not why we left.
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
counselor47
()
Date: February 03, 2007 10:34AM
Here is the latest from the Dallas Observer: Great title, "Sometimes You Feel Like a Cult, Sometimes You Don't"
[www.dallasobserver.com]
[www.dallasobserver.com]
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
Andreo27
()
Date: February 04, 2007 03:12PM
[b:d91fc668ee]counselor47[/b:d91fc668ee]
Thanx, for url
Thanx, for url
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
NathanA
()
Date: February 04, 2007 04:19PM
Quote
One thing I have to take issue with you on is that you seem to be implying that we left Trinity Foundation because we didn't like the preaching. That is not true. The fact that Ole/Trinity aggressively preached the cross was not why we left. I sat under that teaching for 20+ years, and would have gladly continued for 20 more if the other issues has not surfaced. Trinity's preaching of the cross is not what caused us to leave. Trinity's failure to live up to what they taught is what caused us to leave. Cultaware is exactly right when he says that simply knowing things is not salvific. "Knowledge puffeth up." In short, we left because the whole place was rife with hypocrisy. Though I have come to have some issues with what is taught there, those only came later once I had separated and could look at things objectively--but that is not why we left.
Fair enough. And yet there is an entire chapter of Wendy's book devoted to the "scripture twisting" done by Ole. That does not add up with you saying that the problems with the teachings themselves are not grounds for leaving. [b:f2be115601]She has condemned Ole's teaching and not just his character.[/b:f2be115601] But you are saying the main problem lies in Ole's character and not his teaching. Wendy makes more than a few references in the book to Ole's "idyosyncratic" interpretations of the Bible, saying that he used them as a tool to break down other member's egos. She says that Ole has essentially failed in delivering the true message of the Gospel.
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
Mark Scheiderer
()
Date: February 05, 2007 03:45AM
I just received Wendy's book yesterday, and I'm on page 80 or so.
A LOT of what I've read reminds me EXACTLY of the way things were in the cult ( [www.eth-s.com] ) I used to be in.
Ole's statement in the prologue that "God abhors self" blows me away. Not only is it a lie, but I think it offers a real glimpse into his attitude towards people in general. All the talk about "dying to self" and that self is the antichrist is erroneous and totally imbalanced. His focus on self only leads his followers to futile introspection and opens up the doors to manipulation through guilt by Ole'. Reminds me of a line from "1984": "If you want a picture of the future ( in this case "cult" ), imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." Commandment number one in a cult is "Thou shalt not be thyself."
This book is fascinating. I think Wendy's insights into the psyche' of Ole' is spot on. I love the fact that she did research on him and dismantles Ole's past claims about himself. Perhaps that's one reason why he's remained silent.
She gives a very clear picture of just what life, in many of it's facets, was like at Trinity. At the same time, I find it cathartic to read - and I've been out of the cult I was in for almost 20 years! I can totally relate to the feelings of doubt and fear she had after telling Ole' off. The fact that she even had the guts to get in his face in the first place is amazing - and Ole's reaction is appalling, but typical for a cult leader.
I'll probably reread it once I finish it.
The world, and especially the Church, needs more books like this. There are some excellent counter-cult/apologetics people out there, but there are also too many talking heads who really don't have any compassion for people. Wendy's "been there, done that", and I hope and pray the Lord uses her and Doug to help those who have left Ole's cult.
Mark Scheiderer
A LOT of what I've read reminds me EXACTLY of the way things were in the cult ( [www.eth-s.com] ) I used to be in.
Ole's statement in the prologue that "God abhors self" blows me away. Not only is it a lie, but I think it offers a real glimpse into his attitude towards people in general. All the talk about "dying to self" and that self is the antichrist is erroneous and totally imbalanced. His focus on self only leads his followers to futile introspection and opens up the doors to manipulation through guilt by Ole'. Reminds me of a line from "1984": "If you want a picture of the future ( in this case "cult" ), imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." Commandment number one in a cult is "Thou shalt not be thyself."
This book is fascinating. I think Wendy's insights into the psyche' of Ole' is spot on. I love the fact that she did research on him and dismantles Ole's past claims about himself. Perhaps that's one reason why he's remained silent.
She gives a very clear picture of just what life, in many of it's facets, was like at Trinity. At the same time, I find it cathartic to read - and I've been out of the cult I was in for almost 20 years! I can totally relate to the feelings of doubt and fear she had after telling Ole' off. The fact that she even had the guts to get in his face in the first place is amazing - and Ole's reaction is appalling, but typical for a cult leader.
I'll probably reread it once I finish it.
The world, and especially the Church, needs more books like this. There are some excellent counter-cult/apologetics people out there, but there are also too many talking heads who really don't have any compassion for people. Wendy's "been there, done that", and I hope and pray the Lord uses her and Doug to help those who have left Ole's cult.
Mark Scheiderer
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
cultaware
()
Date: February 05, 2007 05:18AM
Mark,
Thanks for chiming in. NathanA is wearing me out. He may be the type of person who cannot learn from others people's mistakes. As he has stated, he has already had to learn about drugs the hard way. I am happy Wendy's book has helped you. She and Doug are loving people who have sacrificed much to publish the book and to fight against this abusive group. It is not easy to fight back once Ole has turned on you. I'll bet Ole rues the day the "rat's ass" statement came out of his ever so clever mouth.
cultaware
Thanks for chiming in. NathanA is wearing me out. He may be the type of person who cannot learn from others people's mistakes. As he has stated, he has already had to learn about drugs the hard way. I am happy Wendy's book has helped you. She and Doug are loving people who have sacrificed much to publish the book and to fight against this abusive group. It is not easy to fight back once Ole has turned on you. I'll bet Ole rues the day the "rat's ass" statement came out of his ever so clever mouth.
cultaware
The Trinity Foundation of Dallas, Texas
Posted by:
counselor47
()
Date: February 05, 2007 01:16PM
Quote
Fair enough. And yet there is an entire chapter of Wendy's book devoted to the "scripture twisting" done by Ole. That does not add up with you saying that the problems with the teachings themselves are not grounds for leaving. She has condemned Ole's teaching and not just his character. But you are saying the main problem lies in Ole's character and not his teaching. Wendy makes more than a few references in the book to Ole's "idyosyncratic" interpretations of the Bible, saying that he used them as a tool to break down other member's egos. She says that Ole has essentially failed in delivering the true message of the Gospel.
I did not say the teachings at Trinity are not grounds for leaving--I think they are. I said that they were not the issues that caused me to leave. However, after I left and began, in retrospect, to re-examine my experience with Trinity, I came to understand just how much in error the teachings are.
Wendy does a good job explaining Trinity's doctrine in her book--so much so that even Trinity's Vice-president, John R. (a.k.a. "Grima Wormtongue"), concedes that she gives an accurate summation of what they teach.
Ole's character is flawed. The teaching is in error. Pick your poison.
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