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cultaware
So happy to hear you are leaving. I wasted six years of my life there before leaving. My suggestion(though you didn't ask for it) is to find a church, yes full of sinners and yes hypocrites, that will allow YOU to work out your salvation with fear and trembling of God (not Ole and hotseats). God is faithful and will guide you. I am proud of you and your courage. And always be cult aware:) Best wishes and prayers to you Brian.

That is what cultaware recommended to me when I first left TFI and so far I'd say it has worked very very well. I love the church I have been attending and the people I have been fellowshipping with for the last several weeks. It's good advice Nathan. I am for you, not against you, I do not want to hurt you, and will help in whatever way I can in exiting you from TFI's influence.

Actually, Nathan, that brings up a question: Do you have a church? I mean, is there a local congregation that you belong to and that you can rely on both for support and to hold you accountable? It is a vital aspect of the Christian walk to have a body to belong to.

The reason I ask this is that it would be more than ironic if you considered your electronic connection to Trinity to be your church after all the years I have heard Ole rail about the fact that there can be no such thing as an electronic church. In fact, I believe his exact words were, "Being a member of an electronic church is like trying to have sex with a rubber dolly."

Ole has an earthy way of expressing himself, but I think he happens to be right about this. Fellowship, by definition, is face to face. Although (as I've said) I think you can do better than Trinity Foundation, if that is the church you consider yourself to be a member of then integrity would demand that you actually move to Dallas and become a true participant. Again, I think there are better places you could join, but I know that by Trinity standards you are not even in the Way if you have not found a body of believers to share the life of Christ with.

Yes, I am part of a small community church I have been connected to all my life.

I think as a core issue here, I have found Trinity's theology to confirm my own experience. As a recovering crack addict, I can agree for example that I am "the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place," or that my mind is the anti-christ. Many people would find that an abuse of scripture to tell someone this. I on the other hand have seen the devastation my own sin causes to others and myself. So while Ole's teachings may be interpreted as "spiritual abuse," I see them more as accurately speaking to the human condition. While Ole seems hard on people, I find it is more of not putting up with people's inflated views of themselves. I wonder if this may be a very essential point by which we are divided about Ole? From reading the book, I get the feeling that Ole's views that way did not jive very well with Wendy. I think she and others have percieved Ole as focusing too much on the wretchedness of human nature, and not enough on the inherent worth of a human being. I feel this is a point that many misunderstand. In my experience the only way freedom from my destructive habits has come, is in seeing the total hopelessness in myself to fix anything. With that comes the revelation that I truly need a Savior. People decieve themselves, and like to think otherwise though, and I see Ole as someone who does not help feed the illusions we often cling to. I suspect Ole believes that without such knowledge of one's own depravity, there is no hope of standing on the grace of God. I would agree with that.

I am encouraged by your post here, because it seems to me that you are attempting to be genuine. I feel like there is a human being on the other end that I can dialogue with. Usually, when you are simply judging us from on high, I do not feel that way. I’ll try to respond to a couple of your points.

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I think as a core issue here, I have found Trinity's theology to confirm my own experience.

Ole is a theological hermit crab, and he has built on the work of others and implied that it is his own. As a protestant believer, I am somewhat familiar with the work of the reformers such as Calvin and Luther—both of whom, in turn, drew from Augustine. The point is, anything that Ole is teaching that is of value is derivative from what is taught by others. You don’t have to join a cult to find preaching focused on the sinfulness of man and the necessity of the cross for our salvation. Any strongly Calvinist Reformed or Presbyterian Church will do.

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As a recovering crack addict, I can agree for example that I am "the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place," or that my mind is the anti-christ. Many people would find that an abuse of scripture to tell someone this. I on the other hand have seen the devastation my own sin causes to others and myself. So while Ole's teachings may be interpreted as "spiritual abuse," I see them more as accurately speaking to the human condition. While Ole seems hard on people, I find it is more of not putting up with people's inflated views of themselves. I wonder if this may be a very essential point by which we are divided about Ole? From reading the book, I get the feeling that Ole's views that way did not jive very well with Wendy. I think she and others have percieved Ole as focusing too much on the wretchedness of human nature, and not enough on the inherent worth of a human being.

The fact that you are a recovering crack addict is irrelevant. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We are all saved by grace.

I do think that Ole goes too far in continuing to focus too much on our sinfulness and not enough on the joy of our new life in Christ. You are not the "the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place," you are a precious child of God purchased dearly with the blood of our Lord.

All of the focus on depravity at Trinity Foundation actually led people to behave worse than they otherwise would have. It was out of balance. Here is an email from a former member (who has since passed away) that she sent to Wendy shortly after we left the group, which is reprinted in the book:

[i:63fb270257]Wendy,
I’m so tired of hearing from anyone, in any form, “bad dog, bad dog.” I have been struggling with the message that Trinity Foundation gave us concerning how evil we were and how God hated us. How long can a person hear that message without falling into the pit of despair? Why was all the focus on how incredibly sinful we were?
Probably the hardest thing for me is what Trinity made of prosperity gospel preachers and what evil things they were doing by teaching about God’s blessings. What was wrong with focusing on the goodness of God instead of always emphasizing that God hated us? Why couldn’t we talk about the joy and blessings of God? Couldn’t we be trusted with them?
I found a passage in Numbers 6:22-27, which lately resonates in my being like a loud echo and runs to places in my heart undiscovered:
“…The Lord bless thee, and keep thee: The Lord make his face to shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.”
Why couldn’t we have ended Bible study, feasts, fasts, and each and every Big Group with that? Couldn’t we be trusted with it? There was so much liturgical trashing and crashing at Trinity that I struggled to see God as a loving, caring, Father who only wants the best for me.
Anyway, there’s part of my struggle. It goes on but I truly believe this leg of the journey is about knowing God’s blessings. That’s part of the deal, right? From sin and death comes everlasting life—everlasting life like only God can provide. Can we be trusted with it? Yes.
Love,
Crystal[/i:63fb270257]

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I feel this is a point that many misunderstand. In my experience the only way freedom from my destructive habits has come, is in seeing the total hopelessness in myself to fix anything. With that comes the revelation that I truly need a Savior. People decieve themselves, and like to think otherwise though, and I see Ole as someone who does not help feed the illusions we often cling to. I suspect Ole believes that without such knowledge of one's own depravity, there is no hope of standing on the grace of God. I would agree with that.

We all truly need a Savior, and we are not disputing that. However, you are projecting the kind of self-deception that you are subject to onto us. The fact that I am at a place where I no longer feel the need to subject myself to Ole’s abuse does not mean that I am deceiving myself. Also, I do not think you are in a position to tell me that I misunderstand Ole and what he is teaching. I taught it myself for years. I understand what Ole is teaching as well as anyone, and I now see that it is out of balance and deviates from the correct understanding of the Gospel on several key points. Nevertheless, we are still believers, we still name the name of Christ, and we still depend on Him and the grace He wrought by His sacrificial death on the cross for our salvation. We acknowledge our sinful nature, and we turn back to God daily in humble repentance. Ole and his merry little band are not the only believers in the world, and it is an extreme form of cultism for them to think that they are.

Let me futher clarify that last point a bit. I realize that if you ask someone at Trinity Foundation if they think they are the only believers they will say, "No." They are very good at [i:89caed4813]saying[/i:89caed4813] the right thing (as were the Pharisees), but not nearly so good at [i:89caed4813]doing[/i:89caed4813] the right thing.

The fact is, we were shunned and called apostate for leaving the group. In Trinity World leaving the group is the same thing as leaving the faith, and that has contributed to so many former members having a bad taste in their mouth about the place. If you act like you are the only true believers and you treat everyone who leaves as if they are no longer believers, you are saying [b:89caed4813]by your behavior[/b:89caed4813] that you think you are the only true believers. That is why Jesus taught us to look at the fruit and not just someone's words--it is easy to say the right words. It is harder to do the right things.

That has been part of the frustration in this conversation with you, Nathan. Your "investigation" of Trinity has only extended to asking them things and then taking them at their word. Well, let me be the first to acknowledge that they are very good at words. In fact, Ole is one of the best. Trinity's behavior is terrible, but they can talk a good game.

I can appreciate you communicating this clearly. Maybe I am just slow to understand you. If it is true their actions are not where their words are, I wonder what the truth of Jesus Christ living in you is then? That is the crux of the "mystery" Ole is teaching. Jesus Christ lives in you and everything else must be emptied. If the one teaching that is a liar, how am I to believe it is true at all?

Let me share a brief story. This may explain why I believe what is being taught at TFI so strongly. A couple of years ago I relapsed on the crack. I smoked it all night and finally when I was done I sank into despair over my fall. I left my house around 4:00 am and wandered out to the edge of my city to some train tracks. I prayed and cried to God for help. I told God I would wait for the next train that came and step in front of it if I could not be free. I honestly felt like God just said, "Go ahead and do it." I had no idea where God was. I felt like I had ruined the grace he had already given me. I started walking back home and found myself confessing the name of Christ over and over, I didn't even understand why. When I got back home, I knelt down in my room and prayed. I said, I will go anywhere in the world for you, and do anything you require of me, just please rescue me from myself. Then I had what was an epiphany. I was overwhelmed in understanding that this had nothing to do with me anymore, but that Christ now must be my life. This was about the same time I started listening to Ole's Bible Studies. It absolutely blew me away that all he talked about was "Jesus Christ in you - the hope of Glory." He spoke exactly about the kind of experience I had had, and it deeply affected my conceptions about what it really meant to be broken. Listening to the Bible Studies seemed to divinely coincide with my new revelation. Ole talked about the destruction of our hopes, that we would have the single hope of Christ's resurrection. I heard John Rutledge's song "Egypt" and it gave me a whole new perspective on the Exodus story. In short, the preaching of the cross at TFI hit the mark exactly in the midst of my spiritual turning point. It was Ole's uncomprimising message of self-abandonment and sharing in a new life that resonated with my own personal experience of that truth.

I have to believe these things irregardless of TFI, but I just don't see how they could understand this message so profoundly without living it. The whole message of it is in fact to live a genuine spirit-filled life. I agree with you that you will know a tree by it's fruit, and in my personal life the fruit of TFI's message has been life and peace. :D

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I can appreciate you communicating this clearly. Maybe I am just slow to understand you. If it is true their actions are not where their words are, I wonder what the truth of Jesus Christ living in you is then? That is the crux of the "mystery" Ole is teaching. Jesus Christ lives in you and everything else must be emptied. If the one teaching that is a liar, how am I to believe it is true at all?

Well, I guess now you can understand why the former members of Trinity have struggled so much. It is disconcerting, to say the least, when someone who has said as many good and profound things as Ole has turns out to be fatally flawed. Nevertheless, that does not mitigate the truth of the Gospel itself. Even the Catholic Church has recognized this by saying that the spiritual condition of the priest—even if he is in a state of mortal sin—does not nullify the validity of the sacraments which he ministers.

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Let me share a brief story. This may explain why I believe what is being taught at TFI so strongly. A couple of years ago I relapsed on the crack. I smoked it all night and finally when I was done I sank into despair over my fall. I left my house around 4:00 am and wandered out to the edge of my city to some train tracks. I prayed and cried to God for help. I told God I would wait for the next train that came and step in front of it if I could not be free. I honestly felt like God just said, "Go ahead and do it." I had no idea where God was. I felt like I had ruined the grace he had already given me. I started walking back home and found myself confessing the name of Christ over and over, I didn't even understand why. When I got back home, I knelt down in my room and prayed. I said, I will go anywhere in the world for you, and do anything you require of me, just please rescue me from myself. Then I had what was an epiphany. I was overwhelmed in understanding that this had nothing to do with me anymore, but that Christ now must be my life. This was about the same time I started listening to Ole's Bible Studies. It absolutely blew me away that all he talked about was "Jesus Christ in you - the hope of Glory." He spoke exactly about the kind of experience I had had, and it deeply affected my conceptions about what it really meant to be broken. Listening to the Bible Studies seemed to divinely coincide with my new revelation. Ole talked about the destruction of our hopes, that we would have the single hope of Christ's resurrection.

Your testimony is touching and I am sure it is heartfelt. I can only rejoice that God reached out to touch you in such a dramatic way. However, you were saved by God, not by Trinity. God may have used them to sustain you for awhile, but your salvation is from God through Christ alone, not from TFI.

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I heard John Rutledge's song "Egypt" and it gave me a whole new perspective on the Exodus story.

John’s songs are inspiring, and there is no denying his talent as both a songwriter and performer. I am a bit miffed at him right now for some of the snide and uncalled-for things he has said about us recently, but he is an extraordinary musician.

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I have to believe these things irregardless of TFI, but I just don't see how they could understand this message so profoundly without living it.

Well, that’s the question, isn’t it? There are at least 50 former members out here wondering the same thing.

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The whole message of it is in fact to live a genuine spirit-filled life. I agree with you that you will know a tree by it's fruit, and in my personal life the fruit of TFI's message has been life and peace.

Again, I praise God for what He has done for you. However, I think you are giving credit to the wrong source. The life and peace you have experienced are the work of the Spirit Himself, and not the work of Trinity. I think you have actually benefited from not being too close to them, and I continue to urge you to find a healthy church in your city where you can hear the Gospel preached and have face-to-face fellowship with other Christians.

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NathanA
Yes, I am part of a small community church I have been connected to all my life.

Whoops! I guess I overlooked this little post. I am glad to hear this. :D