Sahara71, there's a profundity in the statement that the absolute and the relative are exactly the same that's easy to overlook.

I've tried to put into writing the deeply transformational effect nonduality teachings (such as Advaita Vedanta and Zen Buddhism) can have, but anything I can write falls short.

According to Seigen Ishin (Ch'ing-yüan Wei-hsin):

Quote

Before a man studies Zen, to him mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after he gets an insight into the truth of Zen through the instruction of a good master, mountains to him are not mountains and waters are not waters; but after this when he really attains to the abode of rest, mountains are once more mountains and waters are waters.

The above is a description of the process of transformation. It describes different modes of experience. First the world of form is just the world of form, then (after the initial awakening) it becomes the absolute (i.e. formless awareness/existence) appearing as relatively illusory form. Then, when one doesn't get stuck here but the process of enlightenment continues, the old dissociative and compensatory mental and emotional structures dissolve and one becomes an unconditionally accepting and loving embodiment of the absolute, living in and as form without reservation. The relative is recognized to be exactly the same as, and no more or less than, the absolute. The world of form is again the world of form, but with the transcendent radiance of the absolute shining through it.

Quote

the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.

T.S. Eliot

Quote

The world is illusory, Only Brahman is real, Brahman is the world

Ramana Maharshi

Quote

O Sariputra, Form does not differ from Emptiness
And Emptiness does not differ from Form.
Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form.

The Heart Sutra

Thanks Zizlz,

I would like to acknowledge that Zen Buddhism and traditional Advaita Vedanta (but not Neo-advaita) are genuine and legitimate religions that deserve respect. These beliefs have a long and honored place in traditional cultures and have many devout followers who benefit greatly from their teachings.

Personally, I don't think these beliefs resonate with me on spiritual level, but that is not to say they wont help others.

I do suggest that those who want to explore Vedanta look for an accomplished teacher who has undergone extensive training- not someone who is self-taught. I have looked at Swami Vivekananda from the Vedanta Society of New York.

[www.vedantany.org]

I can't say that I recommend Swami V without any reservations, simply because I don't know enough about him! I will say that I doubt that this is a cult of any kind. Swami V doesn't shame people who ask him questions and delivers his very complex talks with good humor and patience.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2019 06:26AM by Sahara71.

Sahara71 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would like to acknowledge that Zen Buddhism and
> traditional Advaita Vedanta (but not
> Neo-advaita) are genuine and legitimate religions
> that deserve respect. These beliefs have a long
> and honored place in traditional cultures and have
> many devout followers who benefit greatly from
> their teachings.

Thank you for acknowledging that, Sahara71.

To me, nonduality is not a set of beliefs, and certainly nothing that you can understand through research (as you say you have tried), but a description of reality as it begins to be revealed in deep states of object-less meditation (i.e. meditation without a specific object of concentration), or meditation where the object of concentration is awareness itself (observing the observer).

Wikipedia explains it like this:

[en.wikipedia.org]

Quote

In spirituality, nondualism, also called non-duality, means "not two" or "one undivided without a second". Nondualism primarily refers to a mature state of consciousness, in which the dichotomy of I-other is "transcended", and awareness is described as "centerless" and "without dichotomies". Although this state of consciousness may seem to appear spontaneous, it usually follows prolonged preparation through ascetic or meditative/contemplative practice, which may include ethical injunctions. While the term "nondualism" is derived from Advaita Vedanta, descriptions of nondual consciousness can be found within Hinduism (Turiya, sahaja), Buddhism (emptiness, parini?panna, rigpa), Islam (Wahdat al Wujud, Fanaa, and Haqiqah) and western Christian and neo-Platonic traditions (henosis, mystical union).

This thread began because so many predators and apologists for predators are using Advaita/Neo Advaita doctrine to trance, confuse
shame and invalidate us.

Personally, I feel worried that too much time spent discussing Advaita, Neo Advaita and Zen might drive away exactly those persons Cult Education Institute looks to serve.

CEI is focused on a specific area of observable social behavior: cult behavior.

By contrast, Advaita and Neo Advaita are doctrines which privilege experiences knowable
only by those who claim such experiences. Debate is endless.


Some who have survived abuse by Advaita/Neo Advaita teachers may want to avoid
any contact with the material, but are eager to describe troubling behavior they observed
at ashrams and retreat centers.

I have watched the Mooji satsang Lisbon 2019 on Friday to see how many people arrived in Lisbon after a huge criticism of Mooji online and Mooji‘s intimidated legal reactions, but Mooji’s cams did not project the whole hale, there was only a focus on Mooji and a small part of audience always. Usually, Mooji’s cams have showed the whole hale space in any satsangs before. (The Lisbon hall capacity is between 2846 (seated) to 4000 people, depending on its configuration).
I was not able to estimate how many people attended the Lisbon 2019 satsang?
The Mooji’s invitation talk on Thu, 13 June at 6pm was not put at YT, why?……
The next day on Fri, Mooji’s cams purposely did not focus on the whole hale….why?
In Lisbon, I guess there is only several hundreds of hardcore Mooji’s followers?
Indeed, Mooji acted a humble man there but was completely down, he knows he made too many mistakes recently. The people do not trust him anymore….

Yeah... there's only THIS,isn't it...?This outstanding nothing at all...:) They who say it is a joyful realization are right. Shocking!! Poverty!POVERTY!!!, it's what it is.Not a peak experience!A valley of alive-nothing.Non-experience!

On the relative level.The seeing will impact the personality in unpredictable ways; basically empathic personalities will probabily evolve in that empathic paradigm ("i'm here to listen to you, and to speak for myself"), the basically narcissistic ones on the narcissistic paradigm ("I'm here to talk at you, and to speak in your name"). Ideally both impulses are balanced. Or rather, they'll be used increasingly appropriately. We keep learning how to navigate towards (and express) what makes us feel more harmonious, alive, sincere.
It's really cool to find that out for ourselves and to listen to the body's intelligence.


edit:I was answering to zizl's post



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2019 02:04AM by yourenotanobject.

Thanks Horowitz
for sharing the latest from the Moo camp... I wasn't even aware that we would be able to watch the Great Moo live from Lisbon, so of course you can imagine my excitement when I saw that one of the satsungs is available to view for free!!

Here it is: [mooji.tv]

Now, I know that not everyone has the time to watch Moo, so I've written up a little review for everyone to read, just so as you can grasp the basic ideas and get a feel for what Tony Moo is all about.

**********

The video begins with the usual dour, dreary music, not at all to my taste, but I'm sure someone, somewhere enjoys it.
At 6.57 see the Moo devotees assembled in the hall. It's the usual suspects... so decidedly devout and eager. I almost envy their innocence.
At 16.05 we see the lovely Shree (I believe) stand up to introduce old Moo. But wait... where is the long list of rules and regulations that she usually delights in regaling us with? What, no rules, this time? Shree's salary has obviously been cut due to unforeseen revenue falls...now the cult can only afford to employ her for the short version of the introduction. Poor Shree.

At 21.00 we are still viewing Tony's empty chair! Where is Tony? What has happened to him? Such suspense, dear viewers! What a lovely chair it is, too. Such opulence.

At 28.27, finally we are witness to the Second Coming. All hail! Rejoice! It's God Tony. Oh dear me; Tony looks tired. He has a slight frown on his holy face. Either he is suffering from wind, or he is worried about something.

At 32.00 Moo speaks. No, wait... he doesn't speak. Looks like he has nothing to say? That would be a first! There is a huge pause. Maybe he has forgotten the script? He seems to be stalling for time. Ok, it looks like Moo is going to forego the usual opening trance sequence and go straight to questions form the audience.

The first guy up from the audience looks like a genuine seeker, but is quite obviously a plant from the Moo group. It's scripted for sure. Too, too obvious! Where is the subtlety? But I think the audience buys it.
The guy states that he is "out of moves" - which is unfortunately the title of one of the popular Moo videos on Youtube - could it be a co-incidence? I doubt it, I think the cult are going with something they already know will work... they are playing it safe.

Mooji then uses the expression "out of moves" a few times, to reinforce it. He explains the situation of the guy from the audience for us, without even asking questions of the guy himself. Right. It's scripted.

Ohhhhh... here we go. The bullsh*t begins in earnest now! Tony says a whole lot of stuff that makes no sense. At 39.26 Moo says "everything that comes must go." So, he really is a great sage after all- predicting his own demise!

At 44.50 the poor guy from the audience expresses his confusion. He says "I'm formless." In response, Moo dishes up the 'word salad' and wrings a few laughs from the crowd.

Tony says "That which sees, can that be seen?" Then he answers his own question straight up: "All things can be seen." But no.... he has to qualify his own answer..... he goes off on an incredible tangent about seeing and being seen. It's very confusing, but Tony tells us "this is easier than easy." Ummmmm..... no, actually it doesn't make a lot of sense, Tony. But by telling us how easy it is, he is making us doubt our own thought process. It's very worrying.

At 49.44 the camera pans out to the audience. In the center of the shot, a man yawns! I feel the same way. It's so freaking tiring trying to concentrate on this bullsh*t.

At 56.12 the same poor man from the audience that got up to ask the scripted question is still standing there. (No-one from the cult have signaled him to sit down yet???) He explains that he is an an "unbearable" state. (I'm not surprised... it's been nearly half and hour) Tony has lost the plot, too;- he asks the man what his question was again? Because he has forgotten it!!

I rest my case.

Quote
youarenotanobject
Yeah... there's only THIS,isn't it...?This outstanding nothing at all...:) They who say it is a joyful realization are right. Shocking!! Poverty!POVERTY!!!, it's what it is.Not a peak experience!A valley of alive-nothing.Non-experience!

Yes, beautifully said! :-)

Quote
Corboy
By contrast, Advaita and Neo Advaita are doctrines which privilege experiences knowable only by those who claim such experiences. Debate is endless

You're right, Corboy. What Advaita points to has to be experienced. It's like a finger pointing at the moon. You can debate endlessly about the finger, all the while overlooking the moon. And this confusion is bound to happen with neo-advaita, because neo-advaitins overlook the required practice and purification most people have to go through before even being able to see the moon. Mooji thinks he can just point to the nondual perspective and people should spontaneously get it right away. He even becomes irritated when people don't get it. The Wikipedia quote from my previous post also elucidates the mistake Mooji is making:

Quote

though this state of consciousness may seem to appear spontaneous, it usually follows prolonged preparation through ascetic or meditative/contemplative practice, which may include ethical injunctions.

I'll shut up about these things from now on, because indeed the debate would be endless.

Gurus running late - classic power play. Builds suspense.

Some amusing reading.

How to fake your way to guru status. (This is the text only version so you don't get nuisance ads)

The author wrote a tongue in cheek guide how to fake that you are
a rich and successful entrepreneur. The similarities with creating oneself
an Enlightened Teacher are astounding.

11 Ways to Fake Your Way To Guru Status!
By: Barry Dunlop

[webcache.googleusercontent.com]


I was a self-help guru. Here’s why you shouldn’t listen to people like me.
I learned the hard way that the people trying to solve your problems often need help the most.

By Michelle Goodman Jan 23, 2017, 8:00am EST

[www.vox.com]

More about Mooji’s satsang in Lisbon 2019:
“I've Smelt the Rain of Freedom Coming, and I Know It's Not For Tomorrow”, [www.youtube.com]:
Sometimes people, who live in a lie for a very long time, they speak about themselves in an analogy of the others because they cannot bear the inner conflict anymore and need a release. It is also Mooji’s case, at 2:30:40. Mooji talked about a romantic relationship writer, who has never had any romantic relationships in her life, but she became rich and famous to write about it. Mooji actually talked about himself at that moment because he has been talking about spiritual awakenings and realizations for more then ten years but he has never had any spiritual real awakenings at all.
The readers of her romantic novels were very surprised and shocked to learn of her creative fantasy and master imitation, the same surprise and disappointment is with Mooji as well, now.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2019 05:32AM by Horowitz.