Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
Sahara71
()
Date: May 05, 2019 06:00AM
I've just been doing a quick bit of research- it seems the spiritual teacher James Swartz was accused anonymously of the sexual assault of a minor. The article was published on Medium.com, then retracted. I can't find a copy of the article, but apparently the anonymous person who accused him never revealed their identity.
Are the accusations valid? I have no idea. But it's enough to raise concerns in the mind of any discerning seeker.
Please be very careful everyone!
I also see the point that some are making here... that Moo's teachings (or indeed James Swartz's teachings) could help some people, because the teachings themselves are universal and do not come directly from the teacher, they are lifted from ancient scriptures (or in Moo's case, adapted from Ramana's teaching methodology.)
I have said so myself- I don't think there is anything especially suspect about the process of self-inquiry. This process does not belong to Tony and he teaches it very ineptly- but still, people may get something out of it.
I had read all about the process of self-inquiry long before I ever knew Tony Moo existed! I had used this process myself during meditation and I found it useful.
However, this discussion is about cult activity, especially the psychological abuses, gas-lighting, manipulation and exploitation perpetrated by Moo and his associated employees.
Are the accusations valid? I have no idea. But it's enough to raise concerns in the mind of any discerning seeker.
Please be very careful everyone!
I also see the point that some are making here... that Moo's teachings (or indeed James Swartz's teachings) could help some people, because the teachings themselves are universal and do not come directly from the teacher, they are lifted from ancient scriptures (or in Moo's case, adapted from Ramana's teaching methodology.)
I have said so myself- I don't think there is anything especially suspect about the process of self-inquiry. This process does not belong to Tony and he teaches it very ineptly- but still, people may get something out of it.
I had read all about the process of self-inquiry long before I ever knew Tony Moo existed! I had used this process myself during meditation and I found it useful.
However, this discussion is about cult activity, especially the psychological abuses, gas-lighting, manipulation and exploitation perpetrated by Moo and his associated employees.
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
It's over Tony
()
Date: May 05, 2019 06:18AM
Yes, Sahara71 - we have to be careful!
I am in complete agreement that Self Inquiry is an amazing tool for discovering our true nature.
Indeed, it is as old as the hills (pre Ramana), and does not belong to anyone. With that said, I've met many m followers that don't know even know anything about Ramana Maharshi.
That's how m "gets" them. He tricks innocent seekers by pretending that it is "his" teaching. Those unaware of the tradition of Advaita Vedanta are blown away by this ancient wisdom, and happily go along with the concept that it's "his" (all to his delight - great narc supply)
How many times have we heard him say "my pointings" etc. I've even heard him say, "don't miss MY most auspicious pointing". (insert barf emoji)
Yes, we can learn from people regardless of their failings but, we're not really learning from "them", we're hearing ancient stuff. It ain't theirs to claim. That's why this is a cult.
This is from the Association for Spiritual Integrity:
"Teachers will not presume special status because of their role as a spiritual teacher. Abusive hierarchical relationships between teachers and students are avoided when the teacher does not identify with his/her role as a teacher. Teachers will not create or actively support the idea of being the 'one and only transmitter', neither will they claim ownership of any spiritual transmission, special energy or grace."
Well, there you have it... fit's m to a tee.
I am in complete agreement that Self Inquiry is an amazing tool for discovering our true nature.
Indeed, it is as old as the hills (pre Ramana), and does not belong to anyone. With that said, I've met many m followers that don't know even know anything about Ramana Maharshi.
That's how m "gets" them. He tricks innocent seekers by pretending that it is "his" teaching. Those unaware of the tradition of Advaita Vedanta are blown away by this ancient wisdom, and happily go along with the concept that it's "his" (all to his delight - great narc supply)
How many times have we heard him say "my pointings" etc. I've even heard him say, "don't miss MY most auspicious pointing". (insert barf emoji)
Yes, we can learn from people regardless of their failings but, we're not really learning from "them", we're hearing ancient stuff. It ain't theirs to claim. That's why this is a cult.
This is from the Association for Spiritual Integrity:
"Teachers will not presume special status because of their role as a spiritual teacher. Abusive hierarchical relationships between teachers and students are avoided when the teacher does not identify with his/her role as a teacher. Teachers will not create or actively support the idea of being the 'one and only transmitter', neither will they claim ownership of any spiritual transmission, special energy or grace."
Well, there you have it... fit's m to a tee.
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: May 05, 2019 06:21AM
(In response to what Sahara just posted. Am sitting here head in my hands.)
Oh, God!
IMO it appears that 'satsang teacher' is a toxic work environment for the teacher, along with those who get involved.
Indian psychiatrist Sudhir Kakkar visited a Rahasoami Beas ashram (entirely different belief system from Advaita,btw.)
In a nutshell, Kakkar wrote that the danger for any guru is that unlike psychotherapists, gurus receive only positive projections from their disciples.
This is an echo chamber for even the tiniest bit of narcissism a human being has.
And folks, we *all* have a bit of narcissism, healthy narcissism if we are fortunate.
By contrast, unlike gurus, psychotherapists get both positive and negative projections from counselees, so this enables the therapist to keep some perspective and it counters the adoration.
Now, what if a guru is already an ambitious narcissist at the start of his or her career then gets exposed to the toxic disorienting environment produced
by recruiting adoring disciples and discouraging and ejecting non adoring disciples?
We read the results every day on CEI message board.
Dr Kakar's account can be read here:
[forum.culteducation.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2019 06:25AM by corboy.
Oh, God!
IMO it appears that 'satsang teacher' is a toxic work environment for the teacher, along with those who get involved.
Indian psychiatrist Sudhir Kakkar visited a Rahasoami Beas ashram (entirely different belief system from Advaita,btw.)
In a nutshell, Kakkar wrote that the danger for any guru is that unlike psychotherapists, gurus receive only positive projections from their disciples.
This is an echo chamber for even the tiniest bit of narcissism a human being has.
And folks, we *all* have a bit of narcissism, healthy narcissism if we are fortunate.
Quote
Dr. Kakar ponders the hazards for the guru.
"We have, however, still to explore the other side of
the relationship: what happens to the guru who is
the recipient of such flattering projections?
Normally, for most of us, malignant projections
(people swearing at us, etc) are easier to handle
since they cause such severe discomfort, compelling
us to reject them by discriminating inside
between what belongs to us and the alien attributes
that have been projected onto us. This painful
motivation for repelling the invasion of self by
others does not exist when the projections are
narcissistic-ally gratifying, as they invariably
are in the case of the adoring followers. To be
consistently thought greater, more wonderful,
more intelligent than we are is a burden only
in the sense that we may feel impelled to be
greater, more wonderful, and more intelligent.
And indeed there is many a guru, including the
fictional one in R. K. Narayan's The Guide
who has become a guru because of the followers'
ascriptions of gurulike qualities to him.
More often, however, the guru simply accepts
these projections as belonging to himself and
enters into an unconscious collusion with the
followers--"I am uncannily sensitive, infinitely
wise, miraculously powerful: you are not."
--thus making the followers more stupid, more
infantile, and more powerless than they
actually are. Such unconscious transactions
between the Master and the followers are a common
occurrance in most mystical (groups)and were
also conspicuous in the Radhasomi Satsang:
By contrast, unlike gurus, psychotherapists get both positive and negative projections from counselees, so this enables the therapist to keep some perspective and it counters the adoration.
Now, what if a guru is already an ambitious narcissist at the start of his or her career then gets exposed to the toxic disorienting environment produced
by recruiting adoring disciples and discouraging and ejecting non adoring disciples?
We read the results every day on CEI message board.
Dr Kakar's account can be read here:
[forum.culteducation.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2019 06:25AM by corboy.
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
yourenotanobject
()
Date: May 05, 2019 06:27AM
That "precept" / guideline from the Association for Spiritual Integrity is to the point, well written and awesome.
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: May 05, 2019 06:27AM
Note: in a previous post I referred to a French queen who ruled in the 16th century. Was editing on my phone.
What I intended to write is this:
"Catherine d'Medici was queen of France in the 16th Century.
A diplomat said this of Catherine:
"She lies even when she is telling the truth."
How is such a thing possible?
When that factual utterance is part of a larger ongoing pattern of deceit.
Some people are like that. Pray you never meet them, and can flee ASAP if you ever do meet them - or the organizations they design.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2019 06:28AM by corboy.
What I intended to write is this:
"Catherine d'Medici was queen of France in the 16th Century.
A diplomat said this of Catherine:
"She lies even when she is telling the truth."
How is such a thing possible?
When that factual utterance is part of a larger ongoing pattern of deceit.
Some people are like that. Pray you never meet them, and can flee ASAP if you ever do meet them - or the organizations they design.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2019 06:28AM by corboy.
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
AnnetteChappelle
()
Date: May 05, 2019 06:30AM
Yes, I learned after I read James Swartz announcement re batgap about such allegations. I do not know if they are true or not. Maybe only James and these people or person knows. That’s usually the case.
I was set to read his book, I had recently ordered and about to until this discussion on here today. I have no interest in it now and I have chucked it into the trash. He may or may not have betrayed others. But I feel he betrayed me and have no more use for him.
Yes Ananas he’s moved just there to Spain, pretty close to those lovely people of Sahaja to wander on over.
I’m going to read about Advaita through the book recommended on a post here by Dennis Waite, Enlightenment- The path through the jungle. It arrived today and I haven’t found any excessive darkness about this author online.
Thank Goodness!
I was set to read his book, I had recently ordered and about to until this discussion on here today. I have no interest in it now and I have chucked it into the trash. He may or may not have betrayed others. But I feel he betrayed me and have no more use for him.
Yes Ananas he’s moved just there to Spain, pretty close to those lovely people of Sahaja to wander on over.
I’m going to read about Advaita through the book recommended on a post here by Dennis Waite, Enlightenment- The path through the jungle. It arrived today and I haven’t found any excessive darkness about this author online.
Thank Goodness!
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
AnnetteChappelle
()
Date: May 05, 2019 07:24AM
Thanks for posting this clearvision
This is from the Association for Spiritual Integrity:
"Teachers will not presume special status because of their role as a spiritual teacher. Abusive hierarchical relationships between teachers and students are avoided when the teacher does not identify with his/her role as a teacher. Teachers will not create or actively support the idea of being the 'one and only transmitter', neither will they claim ownership of any spiritual transmission, special energy or grace."
Even reading it helps. Yes!
This is from the Association for Spiritual Integrity:
"Teachers will not presume special status because of their role as a spiritual teacher. Abusive hierarchical relationships between teachers and students are avoided when the teacher does not identify with his/her role as a teacher. Teachers will not create or actively support the idea of being the 'one and only transmitter', neither will they claim ownership of any spiritual transmission, special energy or grace."
Even reading it helps. Yes!
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
It's over Tony
()
Date: May 05, 2019 07:28AM
Dennis Waite and his book are great! Yes, surely we can be safe to just listen to those that don't have a speck of controversy. Waite is highly respected.
"I am sure it will assist many who are becoming increasingly confused and disillusioned by Neo Advaita, and may turn to the traditional approach."
~Alan Jacobs, President of the Ramana Foundation UK
Alan Jacobs doesn't fuck around!
"I am sure it will assist many who are becoming increasingly confused and disillusioned by Neo Advaita, and may turn to the traditional approach."
~Alan Jacobs, President of the Ramana Foundation UK
Alan Jacobs doesn't fuck around!
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
Sahara71
()
Date: May 05, 2019 07:35AM
Just re-posting the link to the book "Enlightenment- The Path through the Jungle" by Dennis Waite.
[www.advaita.org.uk]
Here you can read a few excepts from the book at no cost, including:
The neo-advaitin argument is that: since there is no one to become enlightened and the Self is already free, it follows that the scriptures cannot serve any useful function.
According to this argument, it must also follow that teaching of any sort is also of no value, including that of neo-advaita.
!!
My point exactly. These Neo-Advaitans, including Tony, try to convince us that we are already enlightened and/or that we don't 'exist' as a 'person' - yet Tony clearly seems to be a person, he seems to exist and seems to enjoy teaching something that he claims we don't even need!
Why pay 20 Euros per month to subscribe to his Youtube channel if we are already enlightened? If people were becoming instantly enlightened, why do they need all these superfluous teachings every month? It can't be as instant as he claims it is.
If we are not 'persons' then he is not a 'person' either. Why kiss his feet then and revere his form? None of it makes any sense!
Here is a great video hat really sums the teachings of Neo-Advaita very well:
(it's quite funny, too.)
[www.youtube.com]
I've posted this before, but I think so many new people have joined the conversation since then, that it is worth posting again.
[www.advaita.org.uk]
Here you can read a few excepts from the book at no cost, including:
The neo-advaitin argument is that: since there is no one to become enlightened and the Self is already free, it follows that the scriptures cannot serve any useful function.
According to this argument, it must also follow that teaching of any sort is also of no value, including that of neo-advaita.
!!
My point exactly. These Neo-Advaitans, including Tony, try to convince us that we are already enlightened and/or that we don't 'exist' as a 'person' - yet Tony clearly seems to be a person, he seems to exist and seems to enjoy teaching something that he claims we don't even need!
Why pay 20 Euros per month to subscribe to his Youtube channel if we are already enlightened? If people were becoming instantly enlightened, why do they need all these superfluous teachings every month? It can't be as instant as he claims it is.
If we are not 'persons' then he is not a 'person' either. Why kiss his feet then and revere his form? None of it makes any sense!
Here is a great video hat really sums the teachings of Neo-Advaita very well:
(it's quite funny, too.)
[www.youtube.com]
I've posted this before, but I think so many new people have joined the conversation since then, that it is worth posting again.
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
AnnetteChappelle
()
Date: May 05, 2019 07:38AM
I feel in all fairness to post the email that was James Swartz last one to me. He never asked me not to share and since he has shared my words here are his. In addition I misquoted him earlier as he did not say “urges” it was “unconscious forces”:
James Swartz (in what I thought was a confidential email exchange) last replied.
It may help your healing to understand that Mooji wouldn't be the way he is if he could help it. He is driven by unconscious forces that are beyond his control. So the only useful response is to feel compassion, not anger/fear etc...for him. He's actually a big baby, kind of like Donald Trump, prisoner of his impulses. He's one of the neediest people you will ever meet. As far has setting him straight, it seems that Isvara, with your help, is is working on it. Usually cults of personality end badly.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2019 07:40AM by AnnetteChappelle.
James Swartz (in what I thought was a confidential email exchange) last replied.
It may help your healing to understand that Mooji wouldn't be the way he is if he could help it. He is driven by unconscious forces that are beyond his control. So the only useful response is to feel compassion, not anger/fear etc...for him. He's actually a big baby, kind of like Donald Trump, prisoner of his impulses. He's one of the neediest people you will ever meet. As far has setting him straight, it seems that Isvara, with your help, is is working on it. Usually cults of personality end badly.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2019 07:40AM by AnnetteChappelle.
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