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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Horowitz ()
Date: December 06, 2018 09:16PM

From T. Moo’s new bio at “ .. It was my time with Papaji in Lucknow that really brought me into the experiential recognition of the Self as pure awareness.."

I think that it was Mooji’s day of non-enlightenment:
T. Moo talked about his “enlightenment Day” or a profound spiritual experience of his ego disappearance on a bench outside of Papaji’s ashram in the video: at 17:15: Mooji Baba returns to the home of his Master Papaji: [].
It happened on December 20, 1993 in video: PAPAJI – Surrender: (Part 2) [] with the evidence notification in thread-discussion from ashram: H.W.L. Poonja - Papaji10 years ago, 20 dec 1993.
During and after that satsang, Moo got upset and angry because Papaji made a fun of him a little bit and of his name Tony at 17:00 in video: [] and in the video: When Mooji Met Papaji (Part 1), Satsang With Papaji: [].
I do not believe in Mooji's enlightenment event at that day at all, because Mooji really packed his stuff and left Papaji's ashram and Lucknow after satsang and he went to the Ramanashram in Tiruvannamalai in south India. Mooji returned to Lucknow again in two and a half months from Ramanashram in March 1994, what matches with the date around of his leaving on 20/12/1993 according to video: Mooji Shares the Experience of Loosing His Son at 0:14: []. Mooji stated to spend even three months in Ramanashram according to many of his older version biographies, for instance: (0.97 Mooji /Buddha at the gas pum. The timing fits well here.
Why Mooji left that place so quickly and immediately where he experienced such profound life changing spiritual experience. There is not coincident that Mooji's enlightenment story on 12/20/1993 is similar to another Mooji's son story on March 1994 in Lucknow, when Mooji came back from Ramanashram and got a fax message about his son’s death in London: In Mooji's Video: Mooji Shares the Experience of Loosing His Son at 3:00: []. Moo probably mixed up together these two stories and he is not honest about it.
There is no logical evidence of his behavior and the right timing or confirmation about Mooji's deep spiritual experience of the Self there. Mooji did not stay there in 1993 after it, why ?, he did not report it to anybody at this time or did not write any letter with some gratitude and thanks to Papaji about his spiritual experience in Lucknow in 1993-4, even later during Mooji’s last visit in 1997 in Lucknow, when Papaji read Mooji’s letter: In the video: PAPAJI - 'Shiva Shambo: [] with notification in thread discussion from ashram: H.W.L. Poonja - Papaji10 years ago, 7 august 1997. Hari Om.
T. Moo simply made his spiritual experience up later for his stories, teachings, videos, and books, he has not told the truth. In addition, in his early satsangs as: Forget about the enlightenment or The laughing Buddha I-III atc., Mooji talked more about “forget about it”, “don’t worry by happy”. Usually people start to talk about their own spiritual experience to really share it in their first satsangs, but it had not been Mooji’s case.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2018 09:30PM by Horowitz.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: December 07, 2018 06:27AM

That is interesting, Horowitz.

You have done some extensive study on this. The way Moo described his enlightenment experience (such as it was) sounded more like a depersonalisation experience to me. Some kind of psychological glitch. His body merged with his environment or something. Weird.

Then he claims to have experienced an overwhelming love for his master, Papaji. If he felt such love for Papaji, why didn't he hang around? Why did he not want to learn more about what happened to him during this enlightenment experience? Did Papaji ever confirm that Moo had a genuine spiritual breakthrough? No.

It's very odd. I know people will say that you don't need your "master" to confirm anything, or spend time with your master or whatever. The true self doesn't need confirmation. Whatever. But if this were the case, why did Moo set up an ashram and encourage people to spend time with him?

Why does Moo allow such devotion of his person?

Moo may have had some kind of spiritual experience after seeing Papaji, but at the time, it wasn't significant enough for him to stick around. His story always gets vague after the enlightenment event.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Whtm ()
Date: December 11, 2018 06:11AM

Sahara: how did you feel after realizing you were were hypnotized without knowing it? Forgive me, if you have already answered this question. As soon as I finish typing I’m going to do a search and see if I can find more information that you may have provided. I was devastated at the realization that I had been hypnotized for months and maybe years without knowing it. I think the description Corboy gave of thr guru’s tactics and the subject’s responsive feelings are accurate in any abusive relationship whether hypnosis is used or not. Unfortunately, I think with hypnosis it can be far more devastating. I can’t remember too much but during trance I felt a lot of anger and abuse and trauma. From the research I have done it seems that this is supposed to form an addiction to the perpetrator and create a dependence on the part of the victim to the protection of the perpetrator from the trauma. I hope this makes sense. I am trying to understand what has happened. What is additionally frustrating to me is that I have amnesia for most of the trances. People have told me that I am showing signs of dissociation and I really don’t know what this means.

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Re: Moo referrals to a healer - what about confidentiality?
Posted by: Whtm ()
Date: December 11, 2018 06:22AM

Corboy could you please explain trance and dissociation? Is this permanent and would the resulting state be considered “liminal?” Is it possible to undo?

Corboy Wrote:
> Questions:
> What relationship - if any? - does Moo have with
> the healers he uses for referrals?
> If Moo recommends that you consult a healer, will
> the healer keep your sessions confidential - that
> is, not report anything to Moo?

The module may stay there for a week or
> two. It will then leave. It needs to reconstitute
> itself given the work that has been done. If you
> can muscle test yourself to see if it is still
> there, do that. If not, just put a new one in
> every week or so.
> Your brain is currently 86.3% developed. The goal
> is to get above 92%. That should be doable in 2-3
> months.
> Wow. Most of us are eager to develop our brains.
> It would be tempting to do this as often as
> possible.
> But...just like any exercise, one can overdo
> things. In ordinary body-building, one needs rest
> periods in between workouts so that one's muscles
> can heal and build strength.
> Why should brain development be any different?

1. Put out your hand like you are holding a
> grapefruit or softball.
> 2. While looking into your hand say and
> say and intend "Create module to mature
> my brain."
> 3. Then insert the module into your brain.
> brain. You can flick it in or toss it
> in. Say the word "Insert" while you are
> le you are doing this.
> 4. After it is in the brain, say
> in, say "Activate."
> Could this be some sort of trance induction that
> has a dissociative effect?

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Whtm ()
Date: December 11, 2018 06:34AM

Wow. This is very helpful. I’m sorry I know nothing about this cult but find lots of similarities and the discussion is very informative. I think what happened to me is described below and will read the other thread that’s referrenced.

corboy Wrote:
> Recall how Sahara described his or her own
> experiences, how these were happy, illuminating,
> grounding, clarifying and did NOT induce confusion
> or disorientation as many persons have reported
> Moo's methods do.
> Moo claimed Poonja was his guru. There is a memoir
> entitled The Mother of God that gives a quite
> detailed description of Poonja by a person who
> lived near him and with him for at least a month -
> Luna Tarlo, mother of Andrew Cohen, whom Poojna
> claimed to be enlightened and sent out to be a
> guru and to "start a revolution amongst the
> young."
> Andrew Cohen became a notoriously abusive guru.
> Luna Tarlo wrote a book describing all this and
> tells us how Pooja informed her, Tarlo, that she
> herself was enlightened. Tarlo reports this left
> her feeling more confused, more bewildered -- and
> more and more dependent on the two authoritarian
> males who had told her this - Poonja and her son
> Andrew.
> Among other things, Tarlo states that Poonja had
> told his own sister that she was enlightened.
> Despite this, Poonja's sister remained silently in
> the background, doing the household drudgery.
> Being told by Poonja that you were enlightened did
> not give you dignity or autonomy. You were still
> subordinate to him.
> As The Who sang, Meet the new boss, same as the
> old boss.
> Tarlo described many episodes in which she felt
> spaced out, alienated from her surroundings.
> Andrew and his guru HWL Poonja assured her that
> these states of mind were evidence of
> enlightement.
> Significantly, these assurances did not give Tarlo
> any sense of empowerment or confidence. Instead,
> she felt more confused, more powerless--and yet
> more dependent on Pooja and her son for guidance
> and validation.
> It appears that many of the experiences she
> describes were episodes of
> depersonalization/dissociation, and not
> enlightenment at all.
> Tarlo began experiencing these episodes while
> reeling with the news that her son had 'become
> enlightened' was suddenly deferred to and adulated
> as a guru, and began demanding deference and total
> submission from his followers---and his own
> mother.
> And all this was happening in India, a foreign
> country that many new visitors like Tarlo find
> quite overwhelming and stressful.
> If you're under massive stress, experience
> depersonalization and are told that this is
> evidence, not of distress, but proof that you're
> enlightened, this will not empower you. It will
> only make you more dependant on the person
> peddling the enlightenment label.
> Its a perfect method for a hustler: place people
> under stress. Confuse them and disorient them.
> Trigger depersonalization
> Tell them they're enlightened
> Tell them they need more exposure to the kind of
> treatment that has disoriented them.
> Play this game properly and you'll keep people
> confused and dependent on you forever.
> This is from an earlier discussion some years ago
> entitled What Some Call Enlightenment May Be
> Depersonalization
> []
> Depersonalization Derealization Disorder
> All this seems quite different from what Sahara
> described. Ive had a few peak experiences and the
> ones that mattered most helped me feel more
> attuned and connected with people and my
> surroundings, while preserving a sense of
> independent agency, responsibility and dignity --
> the best of both worlds, as it were.
> Derealization Depersonalization
> []

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Horowitz ()
Date: December 11, 2018 10:13AM

Mooji before “spiritual awakening” and Riots in Brixton 1985 III: From new Mooji’s bio: “… 1985, all this came to an abrupt end when his eldest sister, Cherry, was accidentally shot by the police and paralyzed, an event which led to the infamous Brixton riots. Mooji found himself in the uncomfortable position of spokesperson for the family and pushed into the limelight. The impact of this experience brought an end to his life as a street artist......” at

Many people who are followers of Mooji’s teaching have no idea about his role in the second afro-Caribbean’s Brixton riots and his sister Cherry’s shooting. T. Moo was a speaker in TVs of his accidentally shot sister, this infamous second afro-Caribbean’s riot, and he delivered a petition to 10 Downing Street in London in 1985.
The Guardian: The “Buddha” of Brixton whose spiritual quest started when his sister was shot (online article, 2018).

From the beginning, ….”22 years old Michael Groce, Mooji’s nephew, was one of six children born to Dorothy "Cherry" Groce, Mooji sister, who had immigrated to the area from Jamaica with Mooji’s mother when she was in her early teens. From aged six much of his life Michael Groce Mooji’s nephew was spent in residential care, brought up in Tinworth House, on a rough housing estate in Vauxhall.[5] Michael was involved with street gangs, and had been exposed to guns during his childhood.[5] He spent time in and out of prison throughout his life, and by 1985 had accrued 50 convictions and 15 different spells in prison.[6].
After being released from prison two months before,[5] whilst out on license Michael became concerned with a turf-war between local street gangs.[5] Subsequently, given a gun for protection by a friend,[5] a few days before the riots Michael was in an argument with his girlfriend at his mother's house, and in a fit of showing-off fired the gun into a wardrobe.[5] Shortly afterwards, he heard a knock on the door and went down to answer it, finding a police officer enquiring if he was Michael Groce. He attempted to close the door, but after the police officer would not let him, Michael put the gun into the officer's mouth.[5] After the officer left, Michael cleaned the gun and placed it in the house, then fled to his sister's home.[5] Raid on Cherry Groce's house
On the morning of 28 September 1985, a group of police officers raided Cherry Groce's house on Normandy Road, Brixton, including an armed CID officer, searching for suspected armed robber Michael Groce.[1] Mrs Groce was in bed, whilst three of her six children were in residence when the police entered the house with force. During the raid, Mrs Groce was shot in the chest; after an extensive search, the police did not find Michael Groce. An ambulance was called, and by the time it had arrived a small crowd had gathered outside the house. Mrs Groce was taken to St Thomas' Hospital in central London [1]…..”, compiled from:
[]. [].
In video Mooji: Brixton 1985 Riot: Cherry Groce Death - The shot did help her health health complications (Day 3):

I think that Mooji has always been an opportunist and took a role of the public speaker of his accidentally shot sister and this infamous second afro-Caribbean’s riots, and he spoke in British TVs. It was a big mistake of him, because the public opinion did not show so much sympathy and was against T. Moo and Jamaica community at that times in 1985. They did not accept Mooji’s arguments in TV interviews because a riot (1981, 1985) was not right solution, accidents sometimes happened, and Jamaica's gangs in London/Brixton in the 80’s were very dangerous and real problem.
Mooji was definitely associated with the Jamaican’s community and with his nephew Michael Groce: In video Mooji: ITN archive - reaction to Cherry Groce shooting at 3:00, he spoke for him: [].
I think that T. Moo has not changed so much, he has always had the intention to get in the spotlight to speak, to manipulate the public environment, the society, and not telling the full truth.
Consequently, T. Moo lost his job/position of a street painter 1985-6. Why? After that, T. Moo got divorced/separated from his wife/partner with two children, moved to his second sister in 1987, and lived in her flat.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2018 10:23AM by Horowitz.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: December 11, 2018 10:23PM



Posted by: Whtm
Date: December 10, 2018 02:22PM

Corboy could you please explain trance and dissociation? Is this permanent and would the resulting state be considered “liminal?” Is it possible to undo?

Recovery resources are available. In a discussion on trance and abusive relationships Rick Ross gave some information.

Re: Trance in abusive relationships new
Posted by: rrmoderator
Date: December 06, 2018 05:35AM

To whom it may concern:

See []

The Cult Education Institute has a section devoted to recovery issues.

See []

There is also a listing licensed mental health professionals that have experience helping former cult members.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2018 10:25PM by corboy.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: happytown ()
Date: December 12, 2018 02:29AM

Double binds in zen (koans) supposedly serve to quieten the psychological mind and get in touch with midichlorians.

But it's not magic, or that rare, and it is easily abused.

"You blame yourself for feeling confused, frustrated, and conflicted. You tell yourself you must be doing something wrong. You are not following the “system” correctly enough. You have too much ego (too much selfishness). You redouble your efforts to obey the system. You are suspicious of your own intelligence and distrust yourself (because ego and intellect are to be mistrusted (according to the system). The higher, correct path (you are told) comes from the ancient wisdom tradition of the Eastern enlightenment and spiritual masters.

It’s maddening and cruel. An enclosed circle, a vicious cycle. You are in the double bind."


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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: December 12, 2018 05:15AM

Hi Whim,

To answer your question, of course I was upset after realising that I had been hypnotised over the Internet by Moo. It was hard, because most people who I told my experiences to, thought that my story was very far-fetched and that I was over-reacting.

So I have mainly kept quiet about my experiences and done all my own research online... This has led to 100 plus hours of reading articles and information and piecing things together in my spare time.

Anyway, for me, the result is that I am absolutely certain now of what happened to me and how it happened and how practically anyone can be hypnotised without their consent. It is all extremely fascinating, but scary!

If you like, I can try to cut and paste all the most relevant links to articles in order, in one post, for you to read.

The good news is, that once you see through the techniques that gurus and other con-artists use, you will realise that they no longer have any effect on you. There does not seem to be any lasting effect from the hypnosis, at least not in my case.

At first I avoided watching Moo online, feeling fearful that his trance induction could have an effect on me, even though I now know what he is doing. But I discovered there was no need for me to do this, and that I could learn a lot by watching his videos and seeing his techniques in use. It is all very interesting.

I hope you will be Ok, Whim.

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Re: Moo referrals to a healer - what about confidentiality?
Posted by: swissalyst ()
Date: December 12, 2018 08:37AM

Whtm Wrote:
> Corboy could you please explain trance and
> dissociation?

I’m not corboy, but I’ll add a few references for you.

“Mind control involves little or no overt physical abuse. Instead, hypnotic processes are combined with group dynamics to create a potent indoctrination effect.” — Steven Hassan, Combating Cult Mind Control, chapter 4.

On the subject of these hypnotic processes, two key techniques are to absorb the audience’s attention and to get people to set aside their critical faculties:


Telling stories is a great example of a hypnotic technique:


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