Gratefulrage:

You describe Byron Katie and her cronies as spiritual hustlers who use techniques from every cult and lgat organization, but you keep promoting her inquiry method as immune from this.

'The Work' IS the main recruitment/thought reform method.

Even if you truly believed that the work is in anyway helpful, logic would suggest you don't go to a cult forum to recommend a highly destructive organization's material. Especially not a book (Loving What Is) where she covinces a child sexual abuse victim that they "complied" with the act. Wake up from your "reality" dude.

You mentioned that free@last is not qualified to speak about 'The Work' and crticized Berceli, yet BK is in no way qualified to offer therapy to anyone. So you actually don't mind unqualified snake-oil as long it's your suggestion? I think Steven Sashen would like your input over on his hypocritical blog. He's into Vipasana too so you'd have lots to talk about.

To Bestlife:

Are you also promoting BK's work and Jesus as well?

How could you not love this forum?

It doesn't matter if Byron Katie tells a survivor of incest that she complied with the act; or someone who was tortured in Iraq that he sought out the experience; or that someone who is paralyzed as a result of being hit by a drunk driver that they were at fault for being outside at the same time as the drunk.
The point of the technique is to take the most emotionally charged material, which rules the victim of the incident, and exercising control over the mind by choosing to believe, if only for a short time, the most blatantly false interpretation of.
It has nothing to do with who was at fault, who was a perpetrator. It has everything to do with realizing that you have the power to not only forgive, but to love the one who victimized you, to believe that they are good, and everything was fair.
It is simply choosing to believe something that can make you happy. rather than believing something that will make you unhappy.
And by the way, I'm not a dude.

If money brought happiness, there would be no expensive LGATs.

Wow, I love the diversity of perspective on this forum ...and I love that everyone here is questioning reality and I love the passion. From my perspective, I am not here to promote Byron Katie or The Work. All I can say is when I question the thoughts that make me unhappy and angry, it brings me to a place where I am kinder to myself and those around me. When I pray and meditate, I am happier; perhaps I am too pragmatic--if it works, I use it. And I could be very wrong.

I don't "love" that fact that the Byron Katie language patterns, like "I love that ____" is creeping into this forum.

I also don't love that some absolutely dangerous "advice" about dealing with trauma and PTSD is being bandied about. But welcome to the world of Byron Katie.

The so-called "advice" from Byron Katie about dealing with trauma and PTSD is one of the worst possible things a person can do. That is a fact.
These things have been studied and written about by experts in this field. For example, see Trauma and Recovery by Dr. Judith Herman. [www.amazon.com]

There is a large literature by professionals dealing with PTSD and Trauma, and Byron Katie knows nothing about it, and is a complete ignormamous, who's so-called advice is extremely dangerous.

Simply trying to "blank out" the trauma is something human beings do automatically with trauma as a survival mechanism. But it does nothing to deal with the after-effects. That is what can lead to PTSD.

As quoted in this thread, some forms of trauma have suicide attempt rates of up to 70%.
Byron Katie (the Work) and PTSD suicide attempt rates [forum.culteducation.com]
Why the hell do you think that Byron Katie puts those "death" disclaimers in her contracts you are forced to sign?

THE SCHOOL FOR THE WORK WITH BYRON KATIE - RELEASE OF LIABILITY [forum.culteducation.com]
QUOTE: "I acknowledge that I am voluntarily assuming all risks associated with my participation at The School and voluntarily agree to accept any and all risks of injury or death..."

Get it? DEATH. That is not put in there for fun.

And these other so-called trauma methods of "shaking" are just extreme flooding without any support, and that can lead to death by suicide, as once the pain starts, sometimes it will not stop, when the person goes home from the seminar. (if this happens, please call 911 and go to Emergency).

What is the real horror about this, is the the so-called Facilitators are being told verbally and in person that The Work can deal with trauma and PTSD, when in writing, they are told the EXACT OPPOSITE that it absolutely cannot deal with anything psychological. Its just a loophole they are exploiting.
They target people with PTSD and trauma as these folks are DESPERATE and need help, and will pay almost anything to try and get relief.

What are these so-called Facilitators going to do when they have suicides on their hands?
Its a lethal mix of ignorance and arrogance. The arrogance that makes them think they can deal with trauma and PTSD seems to come from their ignorance of what they are dealing with.

Even many registered psychologists and pro's won't deal with these issues, but instead will work with the person to set-up referrals to trained experts in the area.
People need 24/7 support, and the highly trained people to help them.

Where is this nightmare of trauma and PTSD going to end?
Read their own contracts.
If you die, tough shit, that ain't their problem.


[forum.culteducation.com]
________________________
THE SCHOOL FOR THE WORK WITH BYRON KATIE - RELEASE OF LIABILITY
QUOTES:
" I agree to completely assume the risk and responsibility for any injuries or damages suffered by me arising out of my participation in The School"
"I represent that either I will maintain my own medical insurance policy or that I will bear all costs and expenses associated with any illness or injury which I may sustain during my participation at The School"
"I acknowledge that I am voluntarily assuming all risks associated with my participation at The School and voluntarily agree to accept any and all risks of injury or death"
"I hereby also agree that I and any all other legal representatives of mine, including my assignees and heirs, will not make a claim against or sue BKI Inc., the Facilities, or their respective representatives, directors, officers, and employees for any injury or damage resulting or arising, directly or indirectly, from my participation at The School."
________________________________

And the so-called Facilitators are really going to pay the price as well, as when people get hurt by their own malpractice, guess who is going to be held responsible?

Please, do not listen to this nonsense being peddled that Byron Katie's methods can deal with trauma or PTSD. Even though these days they say opposite things verbally to what they put in their contracts.

The studied and proven methods for dealing with trauma and PTSD have nothing to do with this dangerous and lethal quackery. People could lose their lives following that type of dangerous "advice".
Ignorance and arrogance can be a lethal combination.
It madness.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2009 03:16AM by The Anticult.

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GratefulRage
It doesn't matter if Byron Katie tells a survivor of incest that she complied with the act;

GratefulRage:

This is a twisted idea and, as you are obviously aware, is formulated by someone with absolutely no expertise in this area. Survivors of incest and other forms of sexual abuse often learn to blame themselves for their perpetrators actions. Reinforcing this self blame is completely inappropriate and can lead to a person becoming trapped into a cycle of abuse, which is exactly what the Byron Katie cult is.

Your idea of reality is summed up quite adequately in your post. To believe something that is blatantly false simply because you believe it will make you happy is willful ignorance. I've never read Byron Katie express this as bluntly as yourself but that was my evaluation of the work aswell. On that we agree.

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BestLife
I am not here to promote Byron Katie or The Work...

...but here's another plug.

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BestLife
And I could be very wrong.

rrmoderator:

This person is just promoting Byron Katie's work via dubious anecdotal evidence and has also preached in their first two posts.

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BestLife
Wow, I love the diversity of perspective on this forum ...and I love that everyone here is questioning reality and I love the passion. From my perspective, I am not here to promote Byron Katie or The Work. All I can say is when I question the thoughts that make me unhappy and angry, it brings me to a place where I am kinder to myself and those around me. When I pray and meditate, I am happier; perhaps I am too pragmatic--if it works, I use it. And I could be very wrong.

You are shitting on the carpet, BestLife.

You are also under a powerful form of mind control, so I am using your comments as a springboard to address other readers, because at the moment you cannot be reached.

I have no interest in what you love or in what makes you happy, and information about those topics is not the purpose of this board. Read the FAQs.

There is no diversity of perspective on this board: cults and LGATs are deceptive, dangerous, and damaging. If you honestly imagine diversity exists on this issue, you are brain-damaged. If you wrote that because it's your job, you are brain-damaged and fraudulent. Read the FAQs.

Buzzwords like "diversity", "kindness", and "love", do not fly with me, and they will not get you over with anyone here. Many of us have had damaging experiences with Katie or others of her ilk, and we come to this board to share our knowledge and experiences. No one is here to "question reality" in the way that Katie means. Read the FAQs.

The 4 questions and a turnaround, which are shockingly similar to Ken Keyes's work, might well be helpful. But to say that is to miss the point.

To expand on a concept The Anticult presented months ago, like a worm on a fishing line, the "Work" is bait. Its true purpose is not love, kindness, or personal growth. It exists to lure people into turning their minds and their money over to Katie and Stephen Mitchell. Like any bait, it doesn't always work, and most fish get away.

That most fish escape does not change the fact that the "Work" is set as bait. Discussion of its benefits is a dangerous waste of time. It's like a fish contemplating which seasonings to sprinkle onto a worm that wriggles on a fishhook. That fish is contemplating the wrong issue. A wise fish races away from the bait.

Sometimes, though, a fish is reeled in. Note that a fish, like a person, must be deceived into profiting another at the expense of its own life.

In the preceding analogy, forum readers, BestLife was the fish. S/he sounds as if s/he's been hooked. S/he takes Katie's deranged gibberish seriously and appears to believe that the "Work" provides genuine spiritual nourishment. Her/his viewpoint is both offensive and pathetic.

Fish are also pragmatic. But the ones who eat the food containing flanged steel hooks are unable to do anything but quietly rot by the dock of the bay. Hooked humans, sadly, retain the ability to post their stinking rot on internet fora.

The worm is the bait. The point is the hook.

Its utterly bizarre that someone could say that it doesn't matter if Byron Katie told an incest survivor she caused the incest and brought it on herself.
Nothing matters more than that.
The reality is that the child NEVER brings sexual abuse onto themselves from an adult, as any sane person knows. The adult is engaging in criminal activity.

Its interesting, that Oprah is out to lunch on a lot of things these days, but incest and child sexual abuse is NOT one of them. It is very important to post on the Oprah message boards, and send emails to Oprah's producers, and anyone else connected with Oprah, about the EXACT WORDS Byron Katie has said about incest being the fault of the child.
If Oprah ever gets wind of that, Byron Katie is yesterdays fish-wrap. Byron Katie would be finished, and Oprah would never touch her again, that is certain.
So its important to get the exact words from Byron Katie on this issue into the Oprah network somehow, and maybe she will hear about it from someone.
Maybe someone could send an email to her friend "Gail" about it?


As far as psychology, the healthy and proper assignment of blame for childhood abuse is the most important thing. The most important thing is for the former victim to NOT blame themselves at all for being a victim of a pedophile, no matter how it happened.

Byron Katie claims in her own claims of sexual abuse as a child, that it was her fault, she brought it on. Maybe that is one of the (many) reasons why Byron Katie is so messed up?

the reality is that using Dissociation, like Byron Katie tries to do to people, can in the very short-term to relieve some pain. You just disconnect from all of the pain, like using a drug, and in the short-term there is some relief.
But in the mid-long term, it all backfires.
Traumatic memories don't heal on their own. They appear to stay "frozen" for years and decades, and cause serious problems. They have to be addressed properly with a trained pro therapist. (not with flooding, or shaking, or whatever by some untrained Quack).

According to some current practice, the only people who dissociation seems to have been a healthy choice, were some elderly holocaust victims, who due to their age, it was best to just try and forget it all. (but again, that was very controversial, and needs to be dealt with by professionals and the family).
Many other elderly holocaust victims believe the exact opposite, and wanted to speak out, make recordings, etc.

But Dissociation from the trauma is probably the 2nd worst thing a person can do.
The worst would be just totally submerging onself in the trauma with various Quack superstitions, which could lead to a rapid suicide or even homicide.

There are professionals who have studied how to deal with trauma for decades, those are the people to see. Its very serious stuff.
Would you go to some unlicensed quack to cut you open with a kitchen knife and take out your appendix?
Its the same thing, you are risking your life doing that.

Again, that's why they have the "death" clause in the contracts. One day the truth of what is going on behind the scenes is going to come out.

Quote
The Anticult
the reality is that using Dissociation, like Byron Katie tries to do to people, can in the very short-term relieve some pain. You just disconnect from all of the pain, like using a drug, and in the short-term there is some relief.
But in the mid-long term, it all backfires.
Traumatic memories don't heal on their own. They appear to stay "frozen" for years and decades, and cause serious problems. They have to be addressed properly with a trained pro therapist. (not with flooding, or shaking, or whatever by some untrained Quack).

Anticult, you completely nailed it here. This is what The Work does to people. Not only does dissociation give a short-term relieve from pain, it can also induce a (false) state of happiness or bliss (like most drugs do). So of course people think it "works" when they enter a blissful state after a work session. This is also why people who are into The Work have to "stay in the process" as they call it. Should they stop answering the questions and making the turnarounds, they will loose their dissociated state and the pain returns. They actually need it on a daily basis. One of the things BK says is, "Have The Work for breakfast and diner". They are nothing short of junkies. During Katie's 9 day school program, this dissociated state is being induced on a massive scale, thus inspiring people to give up their most prized and valuable possessions and to reveal personal information, probably in an attempt to get redeemed for past sins. I think Byron Katie and Stephen Mitchell are far more dangerous people than many realize. What seems harmless on the surface, may have quite an opposite effect on people without them noticing it, because the 'feel-good' keeps them hooked.

I am happy that you pointed out the Katie-talk ("I love that...) which is indeed finding its way into this forum. My guess is that there are a lot of silent (BK) readers out there, who sometimes cannot contain themselves. A great way of detecting trolls. The use of such language has become such a pattern to them that they don't even realize they are doing it. It is fascinating to visit some of the forums that BK offers (even though they never re-opened the open forum). It is the club of the Katie-clones.

Quote

Would you go to some unlicensed quack to cut you open with a kitchen knife and take out your appendix?

BK used to refer to the work as surgery without an aneasthetic, so your comparison here is spot on!

Hi,

I am not sure about it yet, but this may be the one and only post I ever publish here.

I have come here because I have a dear friend connected with this message board topic who has been going through some nasty, ridiculous things behind the scenes in connection with persons connected with Byron Katie.

I am not at liberty to name any names regarding the behind-the-scenes nastiness. Instead I will just say a general thing or two, because I would really like to do that as a show of support for my friend.

First, I would like to talk about the principle of free speech, as has been broached before in this topic/thread. Not just free speech, but anonymous free speech. The Electronic Frontier Foundation has this to say about anonymous free speech:

Quote

Many people don't want the things they say online to be connected with their offline identities. They may be concerned about political or economic retribution, harassment, or even threats to their lives. Whistleblowers report news that companies and governments would prefer to suppress; human rights workers struggle against repressive governments; parents try to create a safe way for children to explore; victims of domestic violence attempt to rebuild their lives where abusers cannot follow.


Instead of using their true names to communicate, these people choose to speak using pseudonyms (assumed names) or anonymously (no name at all). For these individuals and the organizations that support them, secure anonymity is critical. It may literally save lives.

Anonymous communications have an important place in our political and social discourse. The Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly that the right to anonymous free speech is protected by the First Amendment. A much-cited 1995 Supreme Court ruling in McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission reads:

Protections for anonymous speech are vital to democratic discourse. Allowing dissenters to shield their identities frees them to express critical, minority views . . . Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. . . . It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation . . . at the hand of an intolerant society.

The tradition of anonymous speech is older than the United States. Founders Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay wrote the Federalist Papers under the pseudonym "Publius," and "the Federal Farmer" spoke up in rebuttal. The US Supreme Court has repeatedly recognized rights to speak anonymously derived from the First Amendment.

(Please see [www.eff.org] for further information.)

I am deeply disgusted by what I have heard about the behind-the-scenes nastiness mentioned above, as well as by many things I have read on this message board. Sometimes it can seem like the big shots of this world have the upper hand in so many ways. But every now and then, one or more of the "little people" will take a stand, speak up, and not back down. I applaud all of you who have been speaking up here. You are doing something beautiful in a world where many may fear making waves and therefore choose to look away and keep their mouths shut.

I say keep speaking up! If your words help even one person, you've done a wonderful thing.

---

The test of democracy is freedom of criticism. ~David Ben-Gurion

The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen. ~Tommy Smothers

Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine

The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion. ~Henry Steele Commager