Quote
The Anticult
So maybe the standards for posting could be raised a bit for a while, until it cools down?
Otherwise, the sock-puppets may go on for months and hundreds of posts. (there is evidence to back that claim).

Its not fair to those who are trying to sort out this complex Byron Katie and LGAT situation, to be messed with so obviously.

That's what THIS reactionary thinks also, TAC.

I know it's a little intricate, but perhaps some tracking by IP could be utilized. Even if the same damn proxy keeps coming up in the same tone of disruption, it could prove useful. Tough nut to crack, it appears.

Personally, I made a small error inadvertantly in a newsgroup post, and was banned immediately and permanently. They wouldn't even respond to my attempts at reconciliation. Maybe there's a place somewhere in the middle.

Perhaps it WOULDN'T be a bad idea to immediately ban at the very first offense of distraction, disruption, apologetics or victim bashing by a new poster. You know, prove that you're here for meaningful discussion or take your shenanigans elsewhere.

I'm pretty sure that if some loud-mouth came into a library or Christian Science reading room or study group and yelled his contrary opinions at the top of his lungs, touting 'freedom of speech' that it wouldn't stop many from either dialing 911 or even hitting the 'free speaker' in the head with a hard-bound copy of War and Peace.

qd

' even hitting the 'free speaker' in the head with a hard-bound copy of War and Peace.'

What a lovely image, could almost work as one of those embedded commands that Anticult has been pointing out. :-)

Last September, we did a troll count on just this BK thread: Here is the result of a search of the message board.


[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

Quote: from Helpme2times:

corboy
Troll Count as of September 8th 2008

Daphne, Anticultist, ralpher, Randomstu, prsp (or something like that)
Ex Scientology Kid, cultcity and Idunno.
I found more trolls in this thread (may have missed some):

golfer6716
eduardo
Jon Willis
al3r
Gee
screddy57
Daphne
Remi
douglas_goodall

To this glorious list we can, just from this past week, add skeptical republican, Kassy and Anatta

I have zero respect for anyone whose devotees generate such a high pattern of troll activity.

And, a wee message to the trolls:

Do your parents know what you are doing with your time, your intellect, and with your computer?

If you are doing this from work or from a student account, does your employer or your university know you're doing this with their system?

So, between September 2008 and July of this year, we are due for another troll count for the BK thread.

For continuing education, here is an earlier post on Troll Tactics

[forum.culteducation.com]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2009 08:53AM by corboy.

Yes, all of the main posters and readers here believe in freedom of speech, of course. That is what it is all about, REAL freedom of mind.
And it appears everyone would also agree that the public has the right to have all the facts on the table, from all sides of the issues, so as an adult they can carefully make up their own minds, and make good decisions.

but at the same time, if a few trolls have figured out a way to game the system, to just keep slipping through random junk as a type of smokescreen, that is different.
And these threads can be very helpful to people coming out of the cultic enmeshments, so there has to be the ability to keep things on track.
The title above says Cult Education Forum, not Disinformation & Confusion Induction Forum.

Its very very interesting how the Byron Katie system, attracts so many of these internet Trolls?

For example, there is an SGI thread [forum.culteducation.com] where there really hasn't been any serious trolling to speak of.

But the Byron Katie system is very different, of course.
Very aggressive, very passive-aggressive, very hostile, and the #1 trait is DECEPTION. Such incredible levels of deception attempted, almost universally. There was ONE BK person in the thread, who had donated 10 grand or something to BK, and that person seemed honest and straight-up. Basically all the rest have been so incredibly dishonest.
So that is a good object lesson.

That is something else to be examined...what is it in the Byron Katie Work, that carries such intense passive aggressive hostility, deception, and nastiness?
It seems to come from the top, the leaders will kick someone in the teeth, figuratively, and then surround it with fake love-bombing...like fire people, and then say..."hugs and kisses".

There are some back-channel unpublished emails from The Big Cheeses, and they have these hostile humilations and kicks in them, often in a form of double-entrendre, double-meaning.
It will be interesting to try and figure out where that hostility comes from...is there a type of Fair Game mentality, where anything goes?
Is it because the deep BK-ers, really believe there is no such thing as "reality", so there is no such thing as lying? So they can say anything?
Is it because The Work is based on screwing with people's sense of reality?
Something to look into.

Even Janaki mentioned recently on her blog, that the negative feedback she did receive were from people doing The Work.

[janakisstory.wordpress.com]
QUOTE: "The interesting thing is that so far any negative feedback, often laced with judgments, sarcasm and cynicism, came only from people who are into The Work. What they love to do is to point out that I should do The Work. However they don’t really point it out, they sort of throw it into my face, which is incidentally, one of traits I noticed in people who are into The Work, and which I object to. They preach kindness, but it comes across as far from kind."

Just an observation re disrupters:

It seems that recruiting for an organisation serves two puposes, to solidify the commitment of the recruiter and to capture more victims if possible.
If someone is sure of their beliefs in their own mind, there seems to be less impetus to gain safety in numbers and gather a crowd.
One way of stuffing down doubt is to try to convince another person of the lack of doubt, rightness of your cause, as to convince another person bolsters your own belief.

Perhaps the trolls are those who most need to convince others of the rightness of their position, perhaps there are more BK disruptors because the doubts are growing?

Not an excuse to let trolls and doubters off the hook, more an observation that those with reservations about the 'divinity' of BK and her works might be coming out of the woodwork in an attempt to test their own diminishing faith?

Of course for those with only a financial stake/investment in the BK worldview, its just a last ditch attempt to protect an income stream.

Quote
Stoic
Perhaps the trolls are those who most need to convince others of the rightness of their position, perhaps there are more BK disruptors because the doubts are growing?

I believe that to be an excellent point. In my evangelical days, I, myself, had to battle for the side I felt I was on, the preaching being for the preacher in those cases. I consider that possibility when I say, "accidentally, coincidentally or by design" regarding disruptions. There is so much of it on this thread. Corboy may be right on the money when she said, "we must be doing something right."

By the way, as per 'books in the head', I don't advocate violence. I personally feel I need to inject some levity into the mix, using comical mental images. The Three Stooges may have a lot to teach us, even yet.

As for disruptors (nice generic name) I had a movie scene come to mind as I read Stoic's last post. Does anyone remember Michael Douglas' last scene in "Falling Down"? His character has had a nervous breakdown and is just about to the point where we are sure he's going to kill his wife, daughter and then himself. The cop (I think Robert Duvall) tells him that what he's about to do is typical and his actions lead to just that end. This causes Douglas' character to have a moment of clarity. Douglas says, shocked and amazed, "So, I'm the bad guy." Oh that the disruptors of this thread would have this type of realization.

qd

Hypothetical Scenario Which is Just My Opinion and For Which I Have No Proof

(Product of having read too many spy novels)

And...in the case of certain organizations, what better way for a desperate member to demonstrate loyalty to The Cause than to make an utter nuisance of themselves by trolling on RR.com?

*It fills the RR.com channel with noise and disinformation.

*It gives the troll a place to demonstrate mastery of valued skills

*It gives the troll a venue (RR.com!) in which to prove his or her loyalty to the leader

*It thus turns RR.com into a venue for cult activity and provides a Sports Stadium with
free seats, in which trolls can prove their ongoing worthiness to their owners at HQ.

*Best of all, it might ensure that the person would never, at a future time, defect and spill what they know on RR.com

Finally, if the troll is an alienated type who doenst function well face to face, trolling gives a source of personal agency and power without ever facing that it is an anti-social behavior that wrecks the social contract.

Trolling is incompatible with and undercuts spiritual aspirations the person might have.

We might consider the possiblity that one might troll to gain promotion within a toxic and competitive organization--or as a way to ensure one doesnt lose whatever rank one has attained in the pecking order of that system.

And if people have been targeted for sarcasm from us, been confronted by us, especially by Rick, and then banned, they could flaunt this as badges of honor, combat decorations, evidence they are worthy of promotion--or at least evidence of reliability.

This may apply with special force in any toxic, charisma driven group where the leader demands constant proof of loyalty.

In a closed society that is hiearcharcial, charisma driven, and access to the leader is the mark of rank, and where rank can be removed at the leaders whim and with no appeal (read Janaki's account), perhaps one might troll as a way to demonstrate one's ongoing trustworthiness.

For if you get booted off of RR.com for disruption, it means later, if you realize the organization you trolled for has actually abused the shit out of you, you may feel afraid to return to RR.com, because you misbehaved there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2009 09:46PM by corboy.

Instead of Mind Control Call it Monopolizing Attention and Information Channels?

If we refer to 'Mind Control' people panic, get angry and see it as a suggestion that they are too weak to withstand it. THen they can be easily flattered by persons insinuating they are strong and can become stronger by listening to the con artist and ignorign those of us offering warnings.

Instead, how about calling it Monopolizing Attention and Controlling Information?

All con artists find ways to get you to believe they're your friend, and anyone trying to warn about the con artist is an oppressive person trying to hinder you in your freedom and your pleasure. Con artists turn you against your real friends, leaving only the con artist for you to turn to. They monopolize your attention, exclude your real friends and make sure the only information in your direction is controlled and serves the con artist.

Okay, our trolls constantly twang the tired old banjo string that one cannot be manipulated without one's knowledge or consent.

THey bring it up again and again. Any discussion venue where an attempt is made to discuss techniques of attention monopolization, the same boringly familiar persons pop up with the same tired old argument that only your own craving mind is to blame.

Yawn.

Here is a 'share' that describes life in a totally different group than the one discussed on this thread.

Yet, apart from the name, and comparative obscurity, it seems familiar. Only mistake the leaders made was having licenses to practice as therapists---and having to surrender them.

But now they can operate without licenses.

'The quoted material is from a former participant in Wright Institute.

I am quoting things from that thread but put them in a different order to emphasize three themes

Mind control

Working for free

Unwillingness to listen to outside sources of information whilst being used and still 'high'--which means the mind control leads the 'mark' to reframe as noise or as paranoia or as insults any information that conflicts with the programming of the recruiter.

Instead of Mind Control, we should call it Monopolizing Information Sources

From a discussion of the Wright Institute by 'grateful I'm Out posted on

July 15, 2009 09:10PM

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

Here is another lie they tell at the institute.

"No one made them stay...they could have left at anytime....you participated willingly."

Any therapist that practices ethically realizes there is a power differential in a helping relationship. They have power to influence people looking to them for help and answers.

'An ethical therapist does not sell programs to her clients, does not ask them to work for her for free, or recruit others. And they don't try to prevent them from leaving, shame them for leaving, or make them jump through hoops to do so.

'My first year was the Year of More. It was fun and enlivening. My world expanded. I felt like I belonged to something greater than myself and had a shot at making my life count to help change the world.

'Looking back, I can see how thought control was woven in. I was prepped to do my assignments. Bob and Judith are very charismatic. I loved the positive attention.

'I thought that if I continued, I could finally heal wounds that had troubled me all my life.

'But the game changed with Transformation Lab. Suddenly the positive reinforcement was withdrawn.

'I had to work my butt off to avoid negative reinforcement and get an occasional positive. Intermittent reward is even more reinforcing.

...When I announced I was leaving to my group, it became a feeding frenzy.

On working for free

Quote

It really is stunning how they con people into paying them to do work for them. I can see it now. I couldn't for 2 1/2 years. I would not have believed anything I read on this site during that time period......I left WI in March after almost 3 years and at least $25,000. I am still in debt for a big chunk of it.

....After almost 2 years, I realized how much of my life was about doing things with and for the institute, including recruiting and producing "free weekends". The hope of recruiting another "playmate" became my motive for relationships. I did not like the person I was becoming.

I began to get depressed and have thoughts of self-harm. I was no longer doing things that brought so much pleasure into my life - there just weren't enough hours in the day - even if I cut my sleep down to 4 or 5 hours.

The last weekend that I helped produce was in January. It felt like the participants were being held hostage to Bob and Judith's sales techniques

and...not believing outside sources of information while one is in--as she/he wrote above 'I woudl not have believed anything I read on this site during that time period'.

The person repeats this a second time:

Quote

Much of what they do to people in their groups is considered unethical by my therapist friends. When I was involved, I did not listen to them either.

Readers are invited to compare this with Janaki's descriptions. First everything was new and exciting, a larger world, her efforts were praised and appreciated. Then...came the Big Chill.

My hunch is that many leaders of these groups follow the trajectory described by Len Oakes in his book, Prophetic Charisma.

They are incapable of enjoying intimacy and collegeality peer to peer. Real friendship isnt possible. They need to be in leader role.

So it may be that long term relationships are just not for them, as they cant deal with intimacy and familiarity.

So what matters is conquest and novelty.

If you are a potential conquest, or a brand new recruit, you get the gold plated treatment, because you ARE new.

Youve also not been overworked so you still have vitality and havent seen the leader in a temper tantrum yet.

Once theyre used to having you around, you are not valued anymore, you're not a new conquest.

Meanwhile the new conquests have arrived, they get favored treatment, you get to see the leader's tantrums and shadow side, and are told its your projections, and to Turn it Around--or whatever the terminology is that is used by the group.

Its all drearily the same.

It may be the leaders who feel emptiest inside are the ones who most crave conquests--getting more and more recruits.

Men who only chase women have a limit, even with viagra. There's only so many times one can 'do it.'

But power is the ulitmate. It gives a CNS hard-on that never quits.

The problem with power is, it never satisfies. One remains insatiable and empty and this may lead to a guru acting out worse and worse, treating the inner circle worse and worse.

And it may explain why the existence of RR.con, the one teesny corner of cyberspace that is not under the control of BKI, is such an insult--it proves to BK that SHE IS NOT IN TOTAL CONTROL.

She has every other corner of cyberspace to play around in, but RR.com is like the
the one hunk of jewelry she can never buy and add to her already bloated collection of bling and human souls.

A metaphor:

Note to trolls--where's the dignity in being just one of a collection of many shrunken heads, hanging on the wall of a guru's hut?

Beyond Trolling--Katydid Chirpy Culture Jamming RR.com

What we may be getting from BK trolls is something that far beyond ordinary trolling.

It may be a manifestation of a systematic pattern that has been termed 'culture jamming.'

[www.urbandictionary.com]

and

[dictionary.babylon.com]

I advise our interested members to do some research on culture jamming.

For one thing, it may be a way that some trolls are rationalizing what they do.

And it may help us better understand the current predicament and create some innovative and effective strategies.

In this case, Culture Jamming co-opts the communication medium that that carries a message offensive to the perp's group or guru.

CJing tweaks it around so that the discussion venue is co-opted either to carry a pro-guru message or at the very least is filled with boring and confusing noise that distracts from the inside dope that the guru or group doesnt want the public to know.

Katydid culture jamming seeks to ruin the very feature that makes RR.com unique in cyberspace--RR.com's integrity as a vneue free from Katydid chirping!

So maybe the term for trolling on RR.com as perpetrated so systematically by BK's troops is 'culture jamming'.

The perp joins the culture of RR.com through registration and often makes a show of agreeing, in part, with some of what has been already said.

RR.com, unlike BKI is unique.

RR.com is unique in that it tries to keep itself a quiet library and discussion venue, and free from B Kaytidid chirping noise.

Katydid chirping noises are not unique. They are becoming a familiar pattern in many other cybervenues. Katie and her devotees have no shartage of spaces where she can express herself.

But they are insatiable addicts and want more, more more.

But RR.com is RARE because its kept free from the BK chirping that is creeping into, culture jamming and coopting concepts that are really NOT the same as BK.

RR.com refuses to let itself become a colony of Katydids.

I looked up culture jamming and so far got this:

[dictionary.babylon.com]

I advise our interested members to do some research on culture jamming.

For one thing, it may be a way that our trolls are rationalizing what they do.

And it may help us better understand the current predicament and create some innovative and effective strategies.

A tip off is that the culture jammer uses RR.com's commitment to the First Amendment to shame and confuse and overwork the moderator accusing us of hindering free speech by disallowing Katydid chirping.

Next, they accuse RR.com of not respecting free speech when RR.com tries to defend itself from being co-opted and turned into a BK colony.

We dont want that to be done to RR.com. BK has plenty of colonies. She is insatiable. She doesnt need another boring colony on RR.com

**Maybe we can segregate all the trolls and katydid culture jammers onto a separate thread, like a cricket farm. That way interested persons can read this stuff in agregate and it can be kept away from the main BK thread which is the place for people sincerely trying to recover or who want to research the BK business model.

Am not sure if this is feasible, but one way might be to segregate and transfer all troll posts to a separate thread--a holding tank for troll posts.

That way the trolls cannot complain that their stuff is being 'disappeared' and it frees up the BK thread so that the BK relevant material can be read in its entirety.

Concerning scientific controlled studies for PTSD, and depression, and other psychological issues:


Basically every LGAT seminar group, spreads conscious "lies", that they know are NOT true, that there are "studies" being done, or going to be done, about how "effective" their LGAT process is.

But there never are any "studies".
All they give are Testimonials, which are useless, and are not a "study". Its advertising, and cross-marketing.
There is one LGAT group who has said this for so many years, it is beyond absurd.
But it does demonstrate how they will consciously lie, repeatedly, for years.


That is one of the biggest shocks for normal decent people when they come out of these LGAT groups, the amount of blatant, confident, bald-faced lying. When the various facts do come out, it can be shocking to have found out that the Guru, or another senior people were just lying very convincingly, for years.
It can be quite a shock, for people who live normal lives, where you can't get away with that sort of behavior.

And as far as "studies", that BS has been floated many times with the Byron Katie group, even concerning PTSD.
Now most LGAT's won't touch PTSD, as they know its too dangerous and lethal.
But there have been comments in this thread about PTSD and "studies", with no proof at all.
Its almost unbelievable they try to get away with that level of fuzzy illogic and deception.
But they deliberate create that smokescreen, as they know there will NEVER be a proper serious of scientific studies done.
Why? Because they know it doesn't work, they see the same people n pain icoming back for years, and they are against the scientific method, and actively promote Antiscience. They also PREFER customers who do not demand real evidence, as they are easier people to sell anything to.
Its just a big sham.



Below is an example pointing to REAL scientific studies for some REAL treatments for PTSD.
Notice how its not ONE single study, there are dozens of them from many different sources.
They have a specific treatment, for a specific problem, tested against randomized control groups on a waiting list, and they have a way to measure the results, published in peer-reviewed journals.
They measure what works, and what does NOT WORK.
Then others do meta-analysis of the various studies.
That is how real scientific studies have to be done.


[www.beckinstituteblog.org]
PTSD symptoms benefited by early intervention CBT
...
"The present study analyzed randomized controlled trials of early interventions, assessing efficacy, the population receiving the greatest benefit, the best modalities of treatment, and the optimal timing of treatment.

The researchers performed a meta-analysis and systematic review of 25 studies whose interventions were designed to treat or prevent PTSD within 3 months of a traumatic event. The authors found that trauma-focused CBT was significantly more effective for patients than usual care or being on waiting lists in terms of reducing stress symptoms of trauma. The magnitude of the effects varied for this finding; CBT was found to be most effective for individuals diagnosed with acute PTSD or acute stress disorder. Participants who did not meet the diagnostic criteria of a psychological stress disorder gained only minimal benefits from trauma-focused CBT..."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2009 02:18AM by The Anticult.