There are some denominations where the local church can't fire the pastor, and these denominations are not cults.

The pastor is installed by a diocese or presbytery, and only that body can fire the pastor, and it is a lengthy and complicated process.

I can think of at least three -- Presbyterian, Episcopalian, and Church of God.

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rrmoderator
ylhall:

You have said repeatedly that you know where the money goes in ROC.

How is that?

Is there an annually published financial report that discloses in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses paid out from church funds?

You also didn't define how Pastor G is accountable through the bylaws of the church.

Is there a democratically elected board that can fire him? If so, how often do members run for election and how are those elections held?

Yes preciousCPA, I agree. A shyster (in all dis-respect of the Yiddish definition) may, in fact, have bought a great deal of property "for " Geronimo. Does this make it "right" to you? From your moniker, you may/may not have a CPA. If so, I am a naive fool compared to you...

I have never had the bad luck to be a member of Richmond Outlook, however I think as an "outsider" perhaps I have some ability to realize that "Geronimo" has little do with with "Christ Jesus" as this FOOL would suggest.

If I, as a rich man (I am not, just follow me here...), were to buy some horrid preacher such as Fred Phelps a one million dollar house, wouldn't that just STINK?

Just a silly question...maybe The Anticult can help illuminate the situation...

I have been told that the name on the umbrella is Ranch.

Isn’t that typical for independent churches, though? Meaning, a church founded by the sitting senior pastor. He appoints the elders, deacons, assistant pastors, etc. How “democratic” is a church like that? I realize that the group moderator keeps hitting on these issues, but the independent churches I have personal information about, operate like the above. Locally (Richmond area) that would include Faith Landmarks, House of Prayer, Hosanna Victory Church, and Joy Fellowship. If the pastor was “fired”, that would basically dissolve the church. These 4 senior pastors also have a man outside their congregation that they look to as -their- pastor (as does G with the guy in Indiana).

I’m not sure that type of church government is the problem, though. While I have heard a few complaints from former members of those 4 other churches, I can’t say that there has been any major controversy or scandal in the history of those churches, at least nothing remotely like with the ROC. A search of this forum's archives reveals no complaints about those 4 other churches.

While there are some accountability issues with the independent church type of government, there are a whole different set of issues with a denominational church, mainly if that church has had more than one pastor, it has a history, and I could list some local denominational churches that have a fine current pastor but have a rather troubled past history, and at least some of that past history is still having impacts currently. As I pointed out before, some denominations have a presbytery that appoints the pastor, and only that body can “fire” the pastor, and it is a slow and complex process.

Then again, some people have gotten tired of dealing with the institutional church, period … and now participate in home fellowship meetings.

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AW Stevens
There are some denominations where the local church can't fire the pastor, and these denominations are not cults.

The pastor is installed by a diocese or presbytery, and only that body can fire the pastor, and it is a lengthy and complicated process.

I can think of at least three -- Presbyterian, Episcopalian, and Church of God.

Quote
rrmoderator
ylhall:

You have said repeatedly that you know where the money goes in ROC.

How is that?

Is there an annually published financial report that discloses in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses paid out from church funds?

You also didn't define how Pastor G is accountable through the bylaws of the church.

Is there a democratically elected board that can fire him? If so, how often do members run for election and how are those elections held?

AW Stevens:

Why are you here?

What is the purpose of your posts?

Are you a current member of the ROC?

What is your opinion of the ROC?

The ROC is the topic of this thread.

Mr. Moderator:

Wow!! What a demanding set of questions!

I will answer your questions after you demand the same answers from all the other posters in this thread.

Also -- you are the moderator -- if I submit a post and you don't want it posted to the group, then you don't have to post it to the group.

Thanks.

Quote
rrmoderator
AW Stevens:

Why are you here?

What is the purpose of your posts?

Are you a current member of the ROC?

What is your opinion of the ROC?

The ROC is the topic of this thread.

all i want to say is that why is everyone looking at the negative in the church or the pastor ..why not look at the positive..the church is not like mormonism..or like jehovahs witness...therfore it is not a cult church...why question the denominations for the denominations are man made thingts and not Gods ..to believe that a denomination will save you, you are in for a big surprise the church does support the deity of Christ, the Inerrancy of scripture, The new birth, The baptism in th Holy Spirit, Divine healing, the rapture of the Church, the ressurection, the second coming of the Lord, true spiritual worship,soulwinning, love of others and caring for the weak. The church is not perfect nor is any church ....because it is made up imperfect individuals. IF the pastor has done wrong or is doing wrong..is it right for us to judge him ? God will judge him and there will be consequences if thats the case...but do we go to church to worship the pastor or God ? if this church is not right for you ..then just attend another church ...but is it right to critize the church ? it is still Church ...the Holy Spirit is in that church ..because there are supernatural things happening there. you can point out all kinds of verses sayings that its not right ..but bottom line is you can take verses in the bible to say anything you want it to say. but why are we try to seperate ourselves as christians ..if we do seperate we cannot be the body of Christ..and its harder to do what God wants us to do while were here on earth.. and if you say that this pastor is crooked then why not go help him instead of bringing him down..bottom line is that there still a big portion of the world who havent heard the word Jesus yet .relgions that really are cult .and even abortion...and we as a body of Christ should be focusing on them instead of ourselves for we already know Jesus.

AW Stevens:

The questions are directly relevant and on topic.

Until you are more forthcoming and frank about your purpose and opinions it seems that you may be little more than an "Internet troll" or apologist.

This thread has had some problems with that.

Please don't private message me. If you have something to say, say it here on the board where everyone can read it.

To whom it may concern:

Many people that have been burned by independent churches with pastors that lack meaningful accountability move on to another church where there is meaningful accountability, through democratically elected church government and meaningful financial transparency.

The overwhelming majority of Protestant churches in North America have these features.

That is, elected church boards that serve fixed terms through regularly held elections.

A board that has the power to, if necessary, discipline and/or dismiss a pastor.

Financial transparency in the form of annual financial reports, which disclose in detail all church finances, including salaries, all compensation and expenses paid out from church funds. Many such reports are also independently audited.

When these safeguards are not in place there are frequently serious problems regarding abuse of power and church funds.

If your church doesn't have these safeguards there is is an element of risk regarding abuse of power.

Denominational churches often have these safeguards with the added check of denominational oversight. This may insure educational requirements for pastors and staff. Also, it may insure that the bible is taught correctly per articles of faith and doctrine, rather than whatever a particular pastor might fancy.

Typically, the more checks and balances there are the safer the church will be and conversely the less there are, the higher the risk.

BOLIVIA90:

You seem to arguing with what the New Testament teaches, which is to hold leaders accountable.

Read Galatians and see how Paul denounced bad leaders publicly.

Paul also questioned Peter's teachings, even though he was an apostle.

Jesus said specifically that many would come in his name, but he would not know them and warned about wolves in sheep's clothing.

It is biblical to test leaders. Paul blessed the Bereans for examining and testing what he said.

Paul was also checked out before he was accepted by the Church of Jerusalem.

And there are guidelines to help believers qualify and select evangelists, elders and deacons in the New Testament.

Blind obedience and a "my way or the highway" approach to church membership and leaders is neither biblical or practical.