Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: February 02, 2008 09:01AM


The situation in Kenya has not improved since violence erupted following alleged rigging of the election, held on December 27. The leaders of both major parties (Raila Odinga and Mwai Kibaki) have met with various international leaders such as Desmond Tutu, John Kufuour (president of Ghana) and Kofi Annan, but progress has been slow. Unfortunately, violence and looting has increased dramatically. Thugs now appear to be using the elections as an excuse to drive people from other tribes away from their homes so they (the thugs) can steal their land and possessions.

Giddy, who is a Kikuyu, was not able to stay at our volunteer centre, because members of his tribe were being attacked in this area. Fortunately, he was able to board a small missionary plane that landed at a tiny local airstrip, and fly to his home area where he could be safe amongst members of his own tribe. Giddy had a strong vision for helping the children of Western Kenya, and was a key participant in the reading program we have been conducting over the past two years. It is not clear when he (or any other Kikuyus) will be able to return to Western Kenya in peace.

Joe left Kenya this month, partly because locals felt that he looked like a Kikuyu (Joe is African American, but his ancestors did not come from Kenya at all.) but also because his relatives had hired a Kenyan private investigator to stalk him, and they had given reports to the U.S. Embassy which made the Embassy treat us like criminals. We and Joe had previously given the Embassy full details of our location and how to contact us, but they did not respond to that information. Instead, they sent agents who refused to produce I.D. to ask questions of Quaker authorities, claiming (falsely) that they were wanting to evacuate Joe from Kenya. We have complained to the Embassy, but those complaints have been unanswered as well. We are now keeping Joe's whereabouts completely secret, in order to stop his family from further harrassing us and him.

Robin and Christine participated in a Quaker peace conference in Kakamega from January 24-27, where many stories were told of the violence that Friends had experienced in their various localities, and where plans for counteracting the violence through peaceful measures were discussed, along with plans for trauma counselling to the many thousands of people who have been affected by the violent deaths of some 1,000 Kenyans over the past month.

Local Quakers have become more involved in running the volunteer centre, and there are plans to use it to help alleviate the pain currently being felt in Kenya.

In the latest round of violence, attempts were made to systematically destroy the sealed roads all around us, making transportation virtually impossible. There are rumours of bridges being destroyed too, as a way to stop the military from coming into our area. If that is so, it puts us all at the mercy of local militias. For the time being, we have felt the need to stop the English teaching program, and to look for ways of using what few resources we have to promote peace and co-operation in our area. Your prayerful support is greatly appreciated at this time.

Throughout the month, you will be able to read updates on what is happening in Kenya by visiting this link to our forum:


Click on the thread marked "News re tensions in Kenya".


February should be a big month for media coverage in England. On Sunday evening, February 10 (8pm, Channel 4) there will be an hour-long episode of "Wife Swap" which features Sue trading places with a woman from a very rich family for a week. The dramatic differences in lifestyle make for some interesting interactions, to say the least! Immediately after the show, there will be a half-hour "Aftermath" broadcast on Channel E4, where both couples discuss their feelings about the experiment, and how it has affected them since it happened.

Both these shows can also be viewed on the internet at:

Wife Swap:


Aftermath :


Alf will be featured in another reality show, called "Dating the Enemy", where he spends a few days with a woman whose lifestyle is also dramatically different from our own. Watch for it on ITV 1.

Watch for comments on these shows after they are broadcast, on our forum, under the section marked "Controversies":



News in the U.S. is that both teams have met up for fellowship and combined outreach in Texas, before heading up to Kansas to spend some time with Ezra and Jeremy's family.

In Australia, Barry and Ash are living in one bus and working in Sydney, while Ross and Israel are heading south to Melbourne in the other bus. Thousands of copies of "Listening" are now going out in Australia, with good (though limited) feedback so far. The book is about a Jewish Quaker who is used by God to bring people of all religions together in the "last days". You can read the entire book online by going to this link:


Or you may write to us and request that a copy of the book be sent to you.


Tensions continue to rise in our relationship with Quakers, following a disappointing display of large scale gossiping at the Yearly Meeting in Melbourne earlier this month. You can read more of that in the section called "Publishing the Truth" on our forum:


However, we are still hopeful that, at some stage, there will be a breakthrough with regard to our request for dialogue. There are some Friends who are working behind the scenes to overcome the fear and hatred with faith and love. We are very grateful for their efforts.


Check out some of the new articles that have gone up on our web site (or read some of the older ones if you haven't already), by clicking on the link below:


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A kind interpretation....
Date: February 03, 2008 05:27AM

Dear Jack, must be privately galling for David to note that despite, the media coverage and the "thousands" of pages of his diatribe that (we are told) is distributed, that so few new "members" are stepping up to the mark......when one looks closely enough at what they have become, it is of course quite understandable, but David is naturally enough unable to have that perspective on himself....and so must have to keep on "explaining it all away" both to himself and the troops (for example that the nefarious contributers to this site continue to "stifle" him so...)

We could make a kind interpretation and assume that David is just a low-life as you say (and looking for any serious reflection on Davids part would be akin to asking Al Capone how he views the impact of criminal activities on the lives of the victims),

...or just be less kind and assume that he is far and away, out and out too neurotically demented to be capable of being "self-aware" of the injury he causes to others....

but in either event.....criminal or psychopath....(or some ungodly combination of them both....)

....still David would be finding that the more people know about him, the less inclined they are to be involved with the JesusChristians , and the fact that he can only garner "friends" by masking himself and his activities, must actually be difficult for David to continue to explain away to himself..... would be harder (psychological) work than actually MAKING the changes that would improve the situation for him.......but then again such changes might entail letting go of the empire......(and we all know how likely David's mother thought would be possible of him...)

"The way is narrow and few are those who..." is the scriptural twist that David publicly pulls out whenever he is assailed by doubts....but even so David would of course be privately fretting about it....

I think the reason other cults have been more "successful" in terms of numbers is that they have at least some small "positives" to sell, from which to at least attempt to hide the "negatives", but with David and the JC's, as they have become more and more openly divorced from the ideals in the scriptures, there are only "negatives" and spin now...

(sigh!).....What a happier place the world would be, without them!

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Re: A kind interpretation....
Posted by: apostate ()
Date: February 03, 2008 06:09AM

Dave wrote concerning a Quaker concern about being able to trust the Jesus Christians:

The first flaw is that true Quakerism does not work on the basis of someone having to "earn trust". It is based on seeing that of God in others... something that requires us to more or less be reckless with our trust, in the belief that if we will trust other people, they will respond more positively than if we are fearful and suspicious. So for a Friend to announce that she does not trust someone is to almost announce that she has given up on seeing that of God in someone.

Tell me Dave, were you looking at "that of God" in the Kenyan volunteer you had whipped?

And that is where we come back to the matter of postings on this forum... not by Ash, Ross, or Barry, of course, but by myself. It's just that the tar is being applied with a rather wide brush in Quaker circles these days.

Your followers do promote your flawed thinking to others Dave, and their agreeance with you on your forum means they may as well be saying it themselves.

Dave saying why he feels insulted:
They prepared a minute stating officially that the beliefs and practices of the Jesus Christians are incompatible with the faith and practice of Friends. As Cherry and I are Jesus Christians, this minute is a HUGE insult to us, and puts us in an impossible position.

Well Dave you DID order the whipping of someone after all. It puzzles me why you think that such things are not incompatable. Now you are talking about printing their address on the inside of your books. An exmaple of more violence and agression from you towards them. There is ceratinly a violent streak in your teachings and practices... and it is this that the Quakers are responding to in their rejection of you and those that would seek to emulate you.

I would also like to know what your views on domestic violence are. I understand that your time in the COG's exposed you to "justified" violence against women. After forming your own community you wrote articles saying that men had to bring their wives into line. These articles take on greater significance seeing your history in the COG's where violence was practiced against women.

Can you tell us what mechanisms you used to bring Cherry into line? I am thinking your mandated separations of married couples for three months of the year is connected to this continued desire to control women.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2008 06:12AM by apostate.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: February 03, 2008 09:14AM

DM sure does seem familiar with how much an underground-market kidney can fetch:

I clicked on the link, and it is a genuine New York Times article. And, of course, there is always the first time when such a story proves to be true. But consider this, they only did about one transplant a week, and the article includes information about how they would drive around with a mobile clinic of some sort, offering people $1,000 for a kidney, and then checking their blood types against the records they had of people wanting a kidney. Of course, because it is illegal to buy or sell a kidney, the two "donors" caught in the raid both said that they were forced into what they did. Get the picture? It really would be stupid of the illegal surgeons to force people to donate at gun-point (and thus risk them going to the police once released) when they can buy the kidneys for almost nothing, compared to the $100,000 to $200,000 that they can get from an American recipient.


Quote: " In Chennai, India where one of the largest black markets for organs is known to exist".


You know of course where David was in India and where he gets all his books printed don't you? Chennai, India!

One of the JC members also joined the group in Chennai.

He might of got the idea there, but has perfected the idea, i.e. worked out a legal way to sell kidneys.

Back under my rock I go now...Zeuszor signing off.

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2008 09:25AM by zeuszor.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: apostate ()
Date: February 03, 2008 09:28AM

Zueszor. Hate to be a "devil's advocate" yet again... but I think it is a massive leap of logic to suggest dave is selling kidneys.

Still waiting on a response to this question Dave:

I would also like to know what your views on domestic violence are. I understand that your time in the COG's exposed you to "justified" violence against women. After forming your own community you wrote articles saying that men had to bring their wives into line. These articles take on greater significance seeing your history in the COG's where violence was practiced against women.

Can you tell us what mechanisms you used to bring Cherry into line? I am thinking your mandated separations of married couples for three months of the year is connected to this continued desire to control women.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: February 03, 2008 09:31AM

On the contrary; it's a very reasonable inference to make, sir.

One doesn't have to be a Sherlock Holmes in order to connect those dots.

You said so yourself back on page 248: DM was talking about kidney donations back in 1991.

Now, I might not be so bright (scratching my head) but it sure does seem like an awful big coincidence, you must admit.

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2008 09:43AM by zeuszor.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Jack Oskar Larm ()
Date: February 03, 2008 09:58AM

I've said it often enough: it's sad, really. It would seem that McKay is a classic example of someone handicapped by his intellect. I don't think anyone can deny that the man has the ability to articulate his thoughts reasonably well, but, alas, he lacks the emotional depth and social skills to do anything substantial with his gift.

He's the first to admit that he has difficulty comprehending the 'artistic' mind.


For someone who has written all his life, I really don't understand poetry.

I'm not suggesting that someone like McKay should 'understand' the 'artistic' and/or intuitive (right brain) aspect of life, but it is a glaring indicator of his lack. To his credit he does 'attempt' to understand:


Off the blocks.
Gaining momentum.
Up straight. Stretching... and stretching.
Really flying now.
hit the line.

But, unfortunately, as Malcolm suggests above (... he is far and away, out and out too neurotically demented to be capable of being "self-aware" of the injury he causes to others...), he reverts to a kind of arrogant self-importance, which only buries his Shadow, his dark, undeveloped side even further down into his consciousness by making a mockery of poetry and art, especially when it is so dear to many of his followers. And it's kind of telling, Dave, that you insist on ending your 'poem' with the word 'First'. Hmmm. Maybe you were thinking about selling it to Nike or Adidas...


Some pretty deep stuff, even though a lot of it seems too deep for me to keep from drowning in.

The problem is that sometimes I get the feeling that there ISN'T a real meaning and maybe I'm going through all this struggle to find an interpretation while someone else is just cracking up laughing at my gullibility. Is that possible?

And then he suggests that a key definition of art and/or poetry - it's usefulness, if you like - is when it makes people talk about it. And, of course, he finds a convenient moment to transform his acts of violence to the same level of art!


It's like the whipping trial. A lot of people did not understand it, but it got people talking about it. So even Craig must admit that it was good art, if nothing else!

Of course, he's not satisfied in letting the conundrum of art just slip away without making further sarcastic remarks.


I'm going to babble a bit below:

wineglass rover in the swirling trees
mud dog skipping in the downing breeze
flip flops whipping up a cosmic drink
brings my soul to the fateful brink

I'm sure someone could spend hours analysing what I just wrote, but as the author, I have to confess it means nothing, just a lot of syllables and some words that rhyme. I could churn those out at a rate of about fifty an hour. But does that make me a poet? I don't think so. I'm not an expert; I have to keep reminding myself.

Yes, Dave, please keep reminding yourself that you're not an expert. But, I suppose, there is hope, even for you, to get a glimpse of what you might discover about yourself.


I was praying today and I felt that God was reminding me of the importance of people being able to develop emotionally, even if it sometimes doesn't seem to be going anywhere that can be explained rationally. I still think that it helps to grow rationally as well as emotionally, but I guess that we each develop at different rates and in slightly different ways.

But, somehow, I don't think so.


I was so overwhelmed that you liked my babble, that I forgot to thank you for explaining your position. Thank you.

When we think of poetry just as speaking in tongues with real words, then the door is wide open for anyone to write anything (which, of course is true whether we think that other stuff or not!). It helps us not to take ourselves too seriously.

But I think the problem comes when we try to shift over to our general understanding of art, which is that, sooner or later, "good" art is going to be "recognised". It seems that with lots of creative things (painting, sculpture, music, poetry, and even prose) there are people who just do it purely and simply for their own inner satisfaction. Yet I feel that even these people would feel BETTER if what they are creating could be appreciated by others.

Poetry seems to be something that is predominantly done privately. There are very few books of poetry and always a lot more poems are rejected than are included. As long as the poets understand that it is because you have to get outside of yourself and into the minds of the readers a bit more to be published, then feelings should not be hurt.

I think the comparison with speaking in tongues is a great one, because anyone can speak in tongues, and it can be quite liberating. But when you start recording it and letting other people listen to it, without an interpretation it just becomes embarrassing.

As I said, it really is quite sad, pathetic, especially when 'his' followers grovel so desperately for meaning, for acknowledgement. Alfred, among others, offers his deep insights into Dave's babble poetry.


'Walking, running, stamping,
rolling, sneaking, camping.

Dirty Thelma Catwings
answered Mother's chattings

Explain, dumpster sparrows
before father narrows.'

Hey, Dave, you asked about whether anyone could see the lesson in your poem above. Yes, CLEARLY about bin-raiding!

The first stanza gave me the impression of sourcing a proper bin - 'rolling' others out the way to get to a full one, 'walking, sneaking' around to get to the bins and being inside one - 'stamping' any boxes and stuff in the way, (or stamping on food by accident when one jumps inside)... Then there's the 'running' away from store managers who occasionally spring us! And, of course, occasionally 'camping' near to locations where we have known there to be good bins (Catford comes to mind here).

The second stanza makes me think of one's mother surprised to find her son eating some kind of second-hand fast food, sourced from a local fried chicken store bin, with a distinct air of disapproval!

The third stanza... well, I thought that the 'father narrowing' could relate to the fact that our time using bin-raiding as a source of provision is limited, especially in light of the system tightening up all loopholes where people can live outside the status quo (with such things as compactors replacing bins). However, God is in control, and so he allows the way to narrow for us, as a test of our faith, if anything, to see if we can remain flexible and not create a system out of living-by-faith.

An excellent and thought-provoking poem on the topic of Freeganism.... well done!

But, like the father figure that Dave tries to be, he offers this:


Maybe babble poetry is somewhere between dreams and talking in tongues.

Oh, and maybe the message is affected by our own prejudices and experience as well.

Boom, boom!

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: apostate ()
Date: February 03, 2008 11:35AM

Some thoughts on violence, force and control.

It was interesting to see Dave finally realising that when he felt gossiped against by Quakers that this could be compared with physical violence. Dave seems to have had some trouble working through that association, so lets look at some of the issues of violence, force and control as taught/practised in the JC's which might help Dave better acknowledge the blind spots in his thinking.

Dave argued that sex crimes like pedophilia cannot be explained as evil due to "force" as most pedophiles try to seduce their victims, and got himself into an indefensible position when arguing against the point that such an act takes advantage of the vulnerabilities of children and their reduced ability to understand or resist those who force themselves on to them.

Dave argues that he has a right to influence minors and young adults to turn them against their parents on the basis that if he succeeds then it proves the parents have failed in their efforts to influence them.

Dave denied children certain rights and liberties, and subjected parents to a grievance if he felt parents were not enforcing his strict disciplines

Dave teaches that whipping is a preferred punitive action to incarceration because if properly administered can administer a brief period of pain without causing long term physical damage. (Seems the US military has adopted a similar line of reasoning in obtaining information from terrorism suspects!)

Dave argues that vigilante action to kill someone who represents an immediate mortal danger to others is the responsible thing to do.

Dave physically ejected and kicked a visitor with mental health issues, while shouting abuse in retaliation against the way he embarrassed Dave in front of his parents.

Dave detained and physically restrained a non member against her will and the objections of her husband and forced her to face a group telling her she is in rebellion to God and going to hell.

A teenage minor was physically "spanked" by various community members to bring her into line.

The grievance system routinely sends people (including women) out with nothing to live rough, fast and pray for several days as a means of bringing them into submission.

Dave speaks privately to people about his concerns for others (including spouses) and enlists their support in bringing them in line and in backing up a "grievance" taken against them.

Dave plays games with marriage relationships, on one occasion requiring a husband to send his wife away, and when he failed to do that, accepted the wife and expelled the husband.

On at least two occasions Dave employed a technique which involves falling over and pretending that he has been assaulted by the person he is physically expelling to convince the community witnesses of that person's aggression.

Dave makes up stories about the people he is expelling, reversing the truth of what happened, and creating imaginary evils he believed they intended to do. .

Literature has been printed and publicly distributed to further that insult.

Some of these lies being so instituted that they are included in the public quizzes on their forum.

Members are warned not to speak to those who have been expelled.

Dave uses relationships and past histories of illegal activity within the community to keep family members and ex-members from opposing him publicly, even using a threat against an uninvolved party as the lever to make others withdraw their accusations.

Dave threatens to sue critics.

Dave looks for ways to retaliate against those he cannot control.

He makes disparaging comments about their mental condition and integrity, backdating his concerns to when they were trusted leaders in his community.

He retaliated against a church that expelled him by plastering a poster condemning it to the front door and in another instance covered a church that excommunicated him with graffitti.

Dave left a recording device hidden in a hollowed out Bible to record the details of an elders meeting which was discussing withdrawing an invitation to preach, and when that was enacted he retaliated against the minister who had defended him for so long by confronting him publicly and telling him his own son would turn against him (he had been visiting with his father's consent).

Dave is doing his best to hound down specific critics and publicly embarass the Quakers as he anticipates the end of the road with them.

And he complains about the way he has been treated!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2008 11:59AM by apostate.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: February 03, 2008 12:54PM

(.....(As usual...) am greatly enjoying the depth of your posts Apostate !... thank you!)

Dear Jack,

I am in agreement with you, although I don't think we should credit David with that, which he has simply copied from others and then belatedly claimed for himself!

He doesn't even have his "own" cult....the "JesusChristians" are what he saw and dutifully reduplicated, from his time in the Children of God....(having stayed long enough to get what he wanted)....a trait that his mother (page 196) noted from his early years of stealing the projects of others (...and which we now see again with the Quakers....David wants "membership" because it affords him a legitimate "front".....hence he'll buy that "legitimacy" by brow-beating the Quakers into backing down from their public criticism of him)

The weasel is not even capable of creating his very own lies......something that we would at least note for David Berg, in his "favour".....

As I believe that David has retained his American passport....that would of course mean that he is still subject to American Law....

If Britney Spears can be committed to Psychiatric Care, against her will....but for her own wonders what might be possible in respect of David...

Restraining orders against the "leaders" in the JC's (aka what we see with Luff)....and of course "temporary conservatorship" of whatever he may own, granted to his own dearly beloved mother....

"Gravely disabled"......well yes, that does sound like David. don't you think?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2008 12:55PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: apostate ()
Date: February 04, 2008 04:08AM

Dave, did Sue and Roland do the wife swap show as a type of evangelical "free work"?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2008 04:27AM by apostate.

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