Dear Blackhat,

Thank-you!

A very timely posting in relation to the impending "generational" change that must soon occur in the JesusChristians....finally leadership that makes (relative) sense, compared to all that has come before him, in the JesusChristians......the training video portraying the new clothing and insignia he intends to adopt in order to better distinguish the JesusChristians from the faithless "churchies" and worthless "systemites" whom they battle against in spiritual warfare, was also most informative.....

I've been following the story of the lawsuit against the Johnsons. As I've said before, what happened to Reinhard was a truly terrible thing. However, it seems abundantly clear that the legal action has nothing to do with anything genuinely Christian - it's yet another Jesus Christian publicity stunt/money-making scheme.

On this site and on the cult's own website, there have been some comments about whether we should be discussing any of this. The moderator may wish to comment, but my understanding is that while Australian and English law places certain restrictions on discussing forthcoming legal cases, US law (I'm an American citizen and I think this website is hosted in the US) allows this, because it's a First Amendment issue.

With the above in mind, I have a few comments and observations about this. This may already be part of the defense, but I wonder whether the Johnsons could/should launch a counter-suit against Reinhard, David Mckay and the Jesus Christians, corporately? I'm no expert on legal issues, but it seems to me that there may be a case to answer in respect of trespass (Reinhard was on the Johnson's property without permission), attempted kidnapping and numerous issues relating to the totally inappropriate 'grooming' of Joe when he was a child.

Finally, are there any immigration and/or welfare issues that arise in relation to Reinhard? Was he in the US legally when he was 'grooming' Joe? Was he interacting with any other minors? Was he selling McKay's comics and if so, what happened to the money? Was he claiming welfare and if so, was that legitimate?

I'm sorry if any of this sounds unduly aggressive, but a cult is going after a family who just wanted to protect their child. Shouldn't we be trying to help them?

Talamasca, I could not agree with you more. Where is everybody that was so outraged about the whippings? As soon as they hear the word "lawsuit" everybody goes quiet. Cowards, I say. They're too scared of DM and what he might do to really put any hours into it. I say and have always said that silence equals death. Do we want to see DM stopped, or not? I myself am not scared of what they might try and do to me. What if there were 5 other people out there doing what I try to do, put in some real hours and work to contribute to the cause? We could overwhelm DM. Most of those folks over at the jcsxjcs forum are all talk if you ask me. It pisses me off. They're mostly all talk, no action IMO. When it comes to actually doing something about it, being proactive, they are all basically too scared to rise up. For some of the ex-members, I can understand. For the rest, I think they have little excuse. Sometimes I feel like there's only a few of us out there really putting any hours into it, you know? I get so frustrated sometimes.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2008 03:21PM by zeuszor.

Dear Talamasca,

I agree with your thoughts....my only reluctance about discussing the issue on this forum would be to inadvertently alert David, to options that the defence council for the Johnsons may be considering.

I agree with you that there would be prima facie grounds for the parents and family of existing members of the JC's (irrespective of whether the particular individuals still trapped within the JC's, publicly disagreed with the actions) to seek redress on the grounds of fraud, theft (where David has helped himself to the property or finances of the family from whom he has kidnapped their children) and psychological injury (distress or duress in its widest sense). We need to be able to contact those affected.

David "divides and conquers" by isolating the families involved and then "bullying" them (individually extorting co-operation out of them with the threat of loss of "access" to their children) in the time proven strategies of the criminal cults that he has so dutifully imitated....He is aware that at any point in time he has (currently something less?) than twenty individuals (i.e. the existing membership of the JC's) who will perjure the process of law, in order to defend him....hence the cocksure bravado on the JC site.

We thus, (and the District Prosecutors Office) would need to take on board from the beginning that we would be dealing with organized crime (which as I've said previously, several times, I largely view the JesusChristians, now).....however let me go "out on a limb" here and suggest that the direct family and friends of all those who have been unfortunate enough to have been duped into committed themselves to actually joining the JC's.....to a man and a woman, everyone one of them hate the guts of David McKay and would JOINTLY, have enough evidentiary weight to launch an action......even anticipating the po-faced "denials" of the children involved (They are nothing more than projections of Davids' pysche now, and none them could be expected, to do any more than "toe the party line" that they would be fed by David.

David obviously has enough money these days, to enter into legal action of his own, largely from the payments he picked up "reimbursing costs" during the organ-harvesting, I presume...so there is something to sue him for now (although we realize that David would attempt to declare himself "bankrupt" in any action that he lost,some by relocating funds internationally in the name of his daughter or other trusted lieutenant.....and so any class-action would probably minimally need to name all the "leaders" of the JC's....those involved though would still have to be prepared for the eventuality that indicting David would never "pay for itself")

Fred Noroge (Betty's father) is obviously prepared to take the lead in doing so (Kenya is a common law country which would be able to access in precedent many of the English common law prinicples....in particular we would want to be able to legally reference principles of Equity ).....we need more parents and family involved.

We need in fact (through private conversations!) to be able to quietly organize a class action among those a sizeable percentage of those affected ....and in anticipation that David would endeavour to make a media-circus, of the event (in particular as he started to percieve he was "losing") by arranging a court injunction, that would curtail his public "discussion" of the matter.....

There has been some noticeable "reticence" on David's part recently on the JC forum....there may be difficulty of access here...although I do wonder if in fact his American Attorney has advised him to "shut-up" for the sake of Reinehardts Action.....a move that might be readily anticipated, given the idiocy that David so readily writes (assuming that he cannot be "challenged")....



You are probably far more skilfull with the internet than I, Talamasca.....a little thought that has occurred to me...being the extent to which dear old Reinehardt, might also still be affected by German Law (he has German nationality)....

In Australia, sexual offenders of Australian Law, even of crimes committed OUTSIDE Australia (i.e. in the Philippines or Thailand), may still face conviction before Australian courts.......do the offences of "Trespass" (but in particular the "Grooming" you mention, given Reinehardts' interesting connections with the abduction in England) give rise to any convictable charges in the German courts..... What a pleasant surprise that might be for him, in his endeavours to bankrupt the Johnsons, in the service of David!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2008 05:03PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Quote

Still, to further clarify, I actually didn't even ask my parents for any of my belongings before leaving. I simply took as many of my belongings as I could carry and pack into a bag, and then set off. So I don't know what Jon is talking about, or where he got that story from (Brian Birmingham's loopy imagination?)

[welikejesus.com]

Imagination, Joe? Do you still think that I am making it up? By no means. Let me tell you about the facts of this matter.

Soon, in the next few days or so, I shall produce evidence of a three million dollar lawsuit filed on behalf of your friend Rinehardt, a lawsuit in which your father and brother are named as the defendants. I have obtained a copy of the original summons that was delivered to them. You'll see conclusive proof of this matter by the end of the week. This is most certainly not all in my imagination.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2008 09:36AM by zeuszor.

Zeuszor

I too share your frustration that, when all is said and done, more appears to be said than done.

However, I guess we all need to realise that there are more agendas involved with this, than there are spellings of Rheinhard’s name.

Also, to be fair, a lot of things do go on behind the scenes, that you may not be aware of.

It is a shame though, when certain people allow their arrogance and intellectual snobbery to get in the way of commonsense. Unfortunately, these are learned behaviours and they may take some time to erase.

There does seem to be a desire from certain people to “write” the wrongs, rather than right the wrongs.

We could probably raise enough money to fund Rheinhard’s new desired lifestyle, by fining everybody a dollar, every time people use the word, projection.

If guess a lot depends on whether you believe the Jesus Christians have always been a cult that was born out of the Children of God or you hold a differing view. Perhaps that everything was okay up until the so called, split?

To me the ex JC’s site fails Cults 101. That is, the lack of understanding that existing members aren’t able to contribute. If they could, there probably wouldn't be a need for the site in the first place. I do think however, we should be grateful that members are at least taking a peek and the ex members that do contribute (very well IMO) are giving them something to think about.

I do take a more holistic view to the site and believe it is one more thing that is being done to address Dave McKay’s Jesus Christians. Everybody does what they feel is best and capable of and shouldn’t be unduly criticized. It does take a fair bit of time to put together the posts.

However, it is a shame the old torches and pitchfork cliché was brought out when discussing the genuine concerns you raised. Assisting Dave and his associates to further demonise you, is not really helpful. I have never known you to suggest burnings at the stake. My take, is that you are simply looking for a demonstration of some more practical measures that go beyond discussion.

Perhaps you could help yourself by suggesting a few practical steps that you feel the others could take?

I know for me, publishing a copy of the “Honest to Whom” teaching, rather than simply referring to its existence, might be a good start.

Finally, keep your sense of humour. You have got to admit, “Reverend” Zoe was a good laugh. The Universal Life Church is a money making scam selling ordination certificates. The group is shakier than Dave’s supposed gift of discernment.

I do see they have tightened up though, since they awarded a cat I know of, a Doctor of Divinity. I don’t know what was funnier though.
Zoe announcing her new found status, or the others congratulating her on something they know nothing about!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2008 01:45PM by private eyes.

It is a fact that only around 10% of ex-members of cults will ever talk about their cult experiences with someone other than a therapist or close friend or family member; in other words, most ex-members of these kinds of groups never talk about it. Further, only approximately 50% of ex-cult members ever return to God in some form or fashion; in other words, about half ex-members of cults are so badly damaged upon exiting such a group that they turn out to become atheists (or agnostic at best) in the longer run. So I can understand the reticence, the timidity on the part of some.

Before going on, I think that I should make my goal in this endeavor clear, so that my "mission" is clear to myself and everyone who is following this thread.

What I hope to see happen someday soon (simply and boldly put), my goal personal goal as it were, is the termination of DM's command over the group known as the Jesus Christians, and the disbanding of said group. Basically, I want to see DM (and his main croneys, but mainly DM) stopped, whether it be by neutralizing or minimizing their chances of recruiting more people's family members into their orbit, preventing DM from leeching onto other existing denominational bodies for the purposes of usurping credibility and resources, and even the possibility of seeing the eventual leveling of criminal charges against DM himself, which could lead to his arrest and incarceration. I hope that I have contributed something to that end, and hope that I can continue to have the opportunity to further contribute.

Again: I do not support, condone, nor recommend any illegal, unethical, or violent means to that end.

It's going to take ex-members coming forward non-anonymously and courageously, coming forward with any further information, documentation (especially documentation), or testimony that might serve to help neutralize DM's activities.

What exactly are they all so afraid off? That's what I do not understand, in a nutshell. Why do they seem to all think that silence, or at best extreme restraint, in dealing with DM is the best course of action?

The two most prominent xJCs that post over there, the two that seem to think that they are the spokespersons for all xJCs, are honestly two of the most cynical people that I think that I have ever encountered in my life. Really, no sense of humor at all.

The majority of xJCs have done nothing to convince me that their issue isn't really about the split. Malcolm is of course the notable exception.

The ex-members there also don't seem to appreciate that you have to physical evidence to support allegations.

It appears they don't want to help themselves, and they don't want outsiders' help either. All talk, no real action.

The xJCs almost seem like a "cult" unto themselves.

The JC "forum" has also become a circus, with immature comments by Al, Glenn and the rest of the peanut gallery.

We need to actually do something to help the Johnsons and I am afraid that a bake sale will not cut it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2008 03:58AM by zeuszor.

Responding to Sekto's concerns,

It is a fact that only around 10% of ex-members of cults will ever talk about their cult experiences with someone other than a therapist or close friend or family member; in other words, most ex-members of these kinds of groups never talk about it. Further, only approximately 50% of ex-cult members ever return to God in some form or fashion; in other words, about half ex-members of cults are so badly damaged upon exiting such a group that they turn out to become atheists (or agnostic at best) in the longer run. So I can understand the reticence, the timidity on the part of some.

This is of course if you operate from a premise that atheists, agnostics, and the like, are that way because they are "badly damaged" as opposed to something more healthy. Which I think is a bit of a cynical way to view such individuals.

Again: I do not support, condone, nor recommend any illegal, unethical, or violent means to that end.

So you do support ex members talking about their experiences. That is good, for a while there I thought you were saying that talk was useless and that we should do some kind of action. :?

It's going to take ex-members coming forward non-anonymously and courageously, coming forward with any further information, documentation (especially documentation), or testimony that might serve to help neutralize DM's activities.

What exactly are they all so afraid off? That's what I do not understand, in a nutshell. Why do they seem to all think that silence, or at best extreme restraint, in dealing with DM is the best course of action?

I happen to like my username... and my little pitchfork :twisted:
What you deem as "extreme restraint" I see as response as opposed to reaction. Why do you think no restraint is the best course of action?

The two most prominent xJCs that post over there, the two that seem to think that they are the spokespersons for all xJCs, are honestly two of the most cynical people that I think that I have ever encountered in my life. Really, no sense of humor at all.

I didn't think we made such an impression on you that we have left the biggest indelible life impression upon you. No sense of humor. Come on, don't you like my avatar anymore. :cry: Or do I have to use the P word.

I also suppose that the way you have cut and pasted this post means that you have posted it elsewhere because you refer to xJCs "over there", when I take it you mean here. So it now appears that you are against this forum and its stated basis for existing. tsk, tsk. I think I will do a cut and paste "over there".

The majority of xJCs have done nothing to convince me that their issue isn't really about the split. Malcolm is of course the notable exception.

I didn't realise it was about us convincing you of anything. Zeus, do and say what you feel you have to regarding ex members.

It appears they don't want to help themselves, and they don't want outsiders' help either. All talk, no real action.

This forum is a way of exmembers helping themselves, and it is a place that family and supporters can also help themselves. What is this "action" you speak of? It's not enough that some exmembers support one-another on a forum or behind the scenes. It is not enough that we voted with our feet, and continue to challenge continuing JC erroneous teachings and actions? You are free to do whatever you want Zeus, just don't expect me to dance to your tune or to change my modus operandi becaue you say I am doing nothing.

The xJCs almost seem like a "cult" unto themselves.

Here is comes. This could be fun :lol:

The JC "forum" has also become a circus, with immature comments by Al, Glenn and the rest of the peanut gallery.

What does "has also" mean? Are you inferring that this forum has become a "circus" with "immature comments" in a "peanut gallery" or are you engaging in some healthy self critique about forums you post on?

We need to actually do something to help the Johnsons and I am afraid that a bake sale will not cut it.

The Johnsons have my email address and my offer for any assistance they think I can give.

First of all, I meant no disrespect nor any offense to anybody in my earlier post. It was my intention only to voice my concern and get a few things off of my my chest, so to speak.

Apostate, you are right in your point about my comment about "damaged" ex-members. I can see how that would come across as a condescending and/or cynical thing to write.

Look, I am not going to do the line-by-line response thing. That gives me a headache.

Somebody asked me for my ideas on practical steps that others could take, measures that go beyond mere discussion. Hmmm...you know, realistically, I think that probably all that can be done, in some form or fashion has been or is being done. All it is now is just a matter of time. But PE and myself, between the two of us, have produced a lot of documentary evidence to the end of exposing DM and his background, catching him in lies and fabrications, we've fleshed out extensive biographical data on DM and his consort, in other words, I have talked a lot of talk but I (with a lot of help from others ) have also produced something that I think has wound up significantly exposing DM for the pathological lair he is; we can prove that virtually EVERY SINGLE THING that he writes or says publicly with respect to his background and biography is a lie or distortion of the truth and we have evidence, stuff on paper to prove it. I have talked a lot of stuff and have gone overboard at times with it, I admit, but I have also produced, I have a lot to show for all of my talk and I have showed only part of it to the public. I have put my name and my face on the line for this. Most of the people here are anonymous. I put my actions where my mouth is/was where this is concerned. So please, give me just a little credit. I have talked, and I have produced. All I see here is a lot of talk talk talk but you have nothing to show for it, that I or anybody else in the public can see. I wrote a long time ago that I was gonna go full-tilt boogie in my investigation and we have accomplished alot in the last couple of years. Apostate never has liked my presense here and has repeatedly told me that he wishes that I'd shut up, but I have produced more evidence against DM and his group than any of the exmembers put together, you gotta give me that. I think that I/we have done a lot of damage to his organization, with or without your help or cooperation. But we need to know more, somebody needs to put together a more comprehensive biography of DM and his consort, more detailed research on the JCs and their early years, etc., I'd like to see more stuff like that fleshed out, and only xJCs would know alot about that kind of thing, the early years of DM and the "community" and such. We have been trying to accomplish something like that for months. It's a good way of predicting future scenarios and stuff. No cooperation, no good background data from most of the Xmembers though, as far as I know. A book would be a good idea in this respect. I like the idea of helping to raise funds for the Johnsons' legal defense, too, but will not help to raise a penny that will be given to any member of the JCs. I'd generally like to see a greater level of cooperation between the xJCs and the researchers and others working to investigate and bring DM's corruption and hypocrisy to light. We need a greater level of trust and cooperation in general. My goal, my agenda, is to stop DM from hurting more people. Sometimes, I am not sure just exactly what the goals of some of the participants here are. Thank you for your consideration.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2008 11:13AM by zeuszor.

Getrude, Thank you for seeing at least one positive aspect of my post. I was actually trying for a few.

I agree too with your comments that "...the JCs trademark of irrascible and irresolvable anger is blessedly absent at the moment".

Now we just have to work on making sure those negative traits are not retained when people leave :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2008 01:58PM by private eyes.