Truthseek:

One thing you might ask your mother and other family members is: When did they 1st have faith in Jesus as saviour. One thing I noticed from my family members(originally Catholic) was that they had faith in Jesus as saviour while in the Catholic church. They just believed (as they were told) that they had to do extra good works for salvation. But they were already saved because they believed that Jesus was their saviour.

I explained this to a family member of mine. I told her that she was saved under "once saved always saved" while she was Catholic, before she had ever heard of "once saved always saved" And that 1st faith did not occur at Berachah.

But Thieme cloaks over previous faith in Jesus. You were very young and your 1st faith may have been at Berachah. But were your other family members? I'd ask them where they had 1st faith. I suggest that you pray with them about that moment. I'd let them speak about it if they want.
I'd ask them if there was something that they loved about Jesus that they had forgotten.


I think the annointing while having "1st faith in Jesus" is very important. That is it is the Christians 1st faith wherever that faith occured.

1 John 2:27

I think a true Christian can go to any church or non church and share a community of Jesus.


Truthtesty

To the Forum:

Since shortly after the presidential election, it is worth noting that, there has not been a thiemite attack on this forum since November 2008. This is likely an indication that the main motivation for thiemites to attack this website was political and superstitious, not the truth. If they could only "listen" and rub thier lucky rabbit's foot (Thieme tapes) and play like -od is a slot machine of fortune, then McCain would have won. So what happened thiemites? the world was on your shoulders and you let the USA down? You didn't listen to enough tapes? tsk tsk

Personally, I see Republican/Democrat corporate politics as a distraction from the reality of what is really bringing destruction to the American people's lives. Thieme completely misses this point and as a result ended up in bad company along with thiemebots.

The reality is that corporations have stolen "We the People's" constitutional personhood rights and applied those rights to themselves gradually over the past 100 or so years. So that now the rich corporation has consitutional personhood rights. So what does this mean? It means that the American people have become inferior persons. Why? Based simply on money. So who now controls the vote and law in Washington of the freely elected? The corporations hijack by lobbying with dollars the freely elected Republican and Democrat Senators and Congreesmen/women. So that the American people have the cards stacked against them, in the law (and in the so called free trade market) becuase rich corporations can simply "outpay for justice" the inferior person for justice, because the inferior person runs out of money. This has extended so that rights of corporations from freedom of search and seizuire 4th amendment so that OSHA/MSHA is required to give notice of inspections of dangerous workplaces so that a corporations a can "clean up thier act" before the inspection. The rich corporations have written the very trade agreements (really are investor agreements) which have shipped our the American manufacuturing overseas to China. The corporations have sold America downriver to the largest holder of American debt the Communist Chineese. ANd for all of Thieme's ranting and raving about communist hegemony Thieme completely missed the boat on how Communist China is taking over America. It is through the manipulation of CORPORATE PERSONHOOD. And all Thieme did was advocate for you to be a good little christian slave to American Corporations. The very same unpatriotic American Corporations which Thieme advocated you being a good little slave to have now sold America to Communist China. And notice the CORPORATE news media no longer calls Communist China communist they just all it China.

The corporate violations of the US Constitution have gone so far that now the corporate banks can receive billions of America taxpayers dollars with no questions and no intrest except? intrest that those same corporate banks national and international charge to the American people. The very American people that gave them the money in the 1st place.

You will find no mentioning of corporations in the original US Constitution. Corporations were originally created by a townspeople for certain projects for example building a town bridge and then the corporation was dissolved after the project was complete.

Thieme completely missed the very real destruction of the USA. It is irresponsible submission to corporate personhood authority which is destroying the USA. Thieme advocated slavery to this irresponsible corrupt human authority.

It would have behooved Thieme to have just translated the greek to english faithfully, and stuck to truthful factfinding. For all Thieme's unnecessary and prejudiced one sided misdirections and rantings, the USA is still falling under control of the Chineese empire.

I have doublechecked this information with 2 corporate lawyers is Timeline of Corporate Personhood [www.ratical.org]

You can review the Timeline of Corporate Personhood to see how corporations have acquired "constitutional rights" and thusly destroyed the America which Thieme was so fortunate to have grown up in.

By the way it was a activist Supreme court clerk which falsely misinterpreted in the summary (not law) of a Supreme Court decision, which gave corporations personhood rights (Santa Clara County vs Southern Pacific Railroad). It later became law by future decisions of the Supreme court being based off of the Santa Clara summary. That is ridiculous, but true.

More information can be acquired from [www.poclad.org] and [wilpf.org]



Truthtesty

Something to consider for long-term members who may not have come across Lifton's writings.
(The following text was recently posted in the LGAT forum):-

Robert Lifton labeled the extraordinarily high degree of social control characteristic of organizations that operate reform programs as their totalistic quality (Lifton 1961). This concept refers to the mobilization of the entirety of the person's social, and often physical, environment in support of the manipulative effort. Lifton identified eight themes or properties of reform environments that contribute to their totalistic quality:

1. Control of communication

2. Emotional and behavioral manipulation

3. Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology

4. Obsessive demands for confession

5. Agreement that the ideology is faultless

6. Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought

7. Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine

8. Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect

To the Forum:

Intresting article on spiritual abuse by extremist authoritarians in the Church of Christ [www.freedominchrist.net]

I have not had the oppotunity to read all of it.
Truthtesty

To the Forum:

Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum:


Thieme quote: "The spiritual gift of pastor-teacher must be exercised with authority (Tit. 2:15); therefore, monologue, not dialogue is the order of teaching" "Grace Apparatus for Perception" by RB Thieme jr [www.mustseethisone.com]

Understanding God's Government By Paul W. Syltie quote: "All Authority Inserted into Titus 2:15: The KJV reads: "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee". In English, it sounds like Paul is telling Titus that he has "all authority" over the brethren-as a king or dictator might. The Greek words for "all authority" are pas and epitage. The latter word is used five other times in the New Testament (Rom 16:26, 1 Cor 7:6.24; 2Cor 8:8, 1Tim1:1, Tit1:3). In all these cases epitage is translated "commandement" and refers to a. commandement of the Eternal. The incorrect use of "authority" makes it sound like Titus was the rebuking authority, not the Eternal commandments. Also, the Greek pas is translated "every" 117 out of 1.243 times. When pas is used with a word that trepresents a "class of items", pas refers to "every itme in the class." This verse would be much more consistently translated if it said "rebuke with every commandment". Titus was correct the brethren using every commandement of the Father and Christ. [books.google.com]

The Syltie quote is consistent with scripture and the authority hierarchy set forth by Jesus.

Epitage [bible.crosswalk.com]

Dr. Wall: [www.texaswalls.org]
Basic view. First, he has an unbalanced view of spiritual authority. Pastoral or elder leadership authority extends to the overseeing of the operation of church ministries, the maintenance of sound teaching in the local church and the protection of the believers' souls from false doctrine (I Pet. 5:2; Acts 20:28, 29; Heb. 13:17). It clearly involves leadership by example, not by lording over or "bullying" the flock (I Pet. 4:3; Heb. 13:7). Thieme has added to these clear biblical directions. He claims that he must be the final source of doctrine for all in his flock, and that the individual believer cannot study Scripture for himself. Not only does the Scripture not teach such a view of doctrinal learning, but it teaches the opposite. Spiritual growth, Paul says in Ephesians 4, involves two major ingredients that are contrary to the Thiemite doctrine: first, the gift of pastor-teacher is an equipping gift (verse 12, katartismon) designed to prepare all believers (the saints) for doing the job of ministering and edifying; second, maturing takes place as all the members of the body minister the truth of God to one another in love (verses 15, 16), not just one select, gifted person.
Second, he confuses faith in biblical truth with a faith in a particular teacher (i.e. one's right pastor). At no time does Scripture exhort the believer to single out one particular teacher as his final doctrinal authority. On the contrary, there is precedence for diversity of teachers. At Antioch the thriving, missionary church was ministered to by five prophets and teachers (Acts 13: 1). Ephesus had both the personal and epistolary ministries of both Paul and John, and also had the ministry of Apollos and of the elders of Ephesus (Acts 18:24-28; 20:17-35). In 3 John, the apostle condemns Diotrophes for attempting to lord it over the flock, forcing division between his followers and other teachers in the body of Christ. Thieme's right pastor doctrine could very well be called the "Diotrophes doctrine."

I said once I'll say it again " YOU QUESTION THE PERFECT AUTHORITY OF JESUS, IF YOU DO NOT QUESTION THE CORRUPT AUTHORITY OF THIEME!
" [forum.culteducation.com]


Truthtesty

2 Corinthians 1:24 is a very clear indication by Paul that elders DO NOT HAVE SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY over other christians. This is in direct contradiction of Thieme's false doctrine of "right pastor"

2 Corinthians 1:24 King James Bible "Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

2 Corinthians 1:24 Young's Literal Translation "not that we are lords over your faith, but we are workers together with your joy, for by the faith ye stand."

You stand by faith, not puffed up knowledge.

Also, Vine writes that epitage differs from the usual word for authority, exousia, and denotes a commandment.
Vine, W E: Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. 1996.

And also Greek pas (Strong's #3956) in the UBS Greek Dictionary is:"(1) without the article each, every (plkata. all); every kind of; all, full, absolute, greatest; (2) with the article entire, whole; all ( pa/j o` with ptc. everyone who); (3) everyone, everything ( dia. panto,j always, continually, forever; . pa,nta in everything, in every respect).

There is no article present, and pas is in the singular.

Again this seems to be the case that each commandment or every commandment is the right translation.

If you read Titus for yourself you see that Paul is passing on the message to Titus "to teach" the commandments of God to the flock, not "to command" the flock.

Correct and teach the flock with every commandment of God, not command and ram the flock with a false notion of an false spiritual authority of a pastor gift or teacher gift.

Matthew 28:18 and many other verses says that Jesus has all power over heaven and earth. How can a pastor or teacher exercise "all authority" when they do not have all authority, when Jesus has all authority?
Ridiculous.

The spiritual gifts of pastor and teacher, as with all gifts, it seems clear to me all gifts are exercised with faith, not corrupt authority.

Also in Dr. Wall's dissertation (above mentioned) 1 Peter 4:3 I think there is a typo in Dr. Wall's dissertation and what was really meant was 1 Peter 5:3, not 1 Peter 4:3. King James Bible 1 Peter 5:3 "Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock".

Truthtesty

To the Forum:

There are 7 verses which use kurieuo. In particular I contrast and compare 2 Cor. 1:24 with Luke 22:25
Which shows a direct contradiction of Thieme's false claim of having spiritual authority over your faith. There is no "military chain of command" and no "lord it over" authority of a pastor or a teacher between the believer and God.

2 Corinthians 1:24 - Not that we lord it(kurieuo) over your faith, but are workers with you for your joy; for in your faith you are standing firm.

The NAS Strong's Version
[www.biblestudytools.com]

The same greek word kurieu is used in Luke 22:25

Lu 22:25 -  And He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it(kurieuo) over them; and those who have authority over them are called'Benefactors.' 26 "But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant.

[www.biblestudytools.com]

Truthtesty

I was involved in RBT teaching in his heydey in the 70's. Many of us 20 somethings moved to Houston to go to Berachah in those days. Bible study every night, movies on Saturday night. I was there when RBT3 got married and divorced. I found my "right man" there and was married to him briefly. If wives asked questions, they were told to be quiet. We were supposed to be subservient. I lived in an apartment complex next to the church, many other young people lived there. We all sat in the same group of seats every night. Most of the married ones divorced, few that I knew stayed together. The man was the power, like RBT. How his wife must have suffered all those years. Rumors abounded about RBT and his secretary, but who knew?
It was all very closed and we were not open to relationships with people outside of the group. How could you relate to others when your views with RBT were so narrow minded? It was drummed into you every night. But I did love the lecture type teaching, as a Catholic, it was all very interesting and different. I had books and books of notes.
It was interesting that I went to Houston because my asst pastor in my home state, he and his wife very dear friends, taught Thieme principals. RBT was the guru.....so I went to mecca, hoping to find whatever it was I was looking for. Of course, when I got a divorce, my very dear friends, in my home church and Berachah would have nothing to do with me. When things went wrong, the wife was blamed. It took me years to get over this abandonment and the guilt that went with it. I didn't fit in, I wasn't submissive enough, etc. I tried to call my old friends many times, but was told they didn't want to speak with me. I have since run into them, all in our 50's and they acted like old friends!! I find it ironic that they are big time missionaries out "saving" people and they found it very easy to abandon people who did not meet up to their standards. All through my 30's and 40's I went through stages of absolutely hating religion and church and anything to do with hypocritical Christians. I still see most born again Christians as hypocritical, but the time at Berachah was definitely a life lesson that I look back on and wish had never happened. I don't know how RBT3 is, but be cautious if you are thinking of going there. Once on Sundays is enough....

Thanks for your thoughts tmas.

Apparently Berachah will continue promoting Thieme Jr's books and ideas.
I don't know whether the right-man right-woman book and/or its ideas will continue to be promoted, but your comment (which is one more in a large number) certainly reveals the harm of this teaching.

He also wrote a book called Careless Women which I have a copy of.

To tmas:

I appreciate that you have shared. I too have a problem with hypocritical people in general.

To the Forum:

Thieme quote: "The spiritual gift of pastor-teacher must be exercised with authority (Tit. 2:15); therefore, monologue, not dialogue is the order of teaching" "Grace Apparatus for Perception" by RB Thieme jr

In Titus 2:15 the word for Commandment/Authority is EPITAGE, not EXOUSIA.

VINE'S B1.     Authority [Verb] EXOUSIAZO akin to EXOUSIA, signifies "to exercise power," Luke_22:25; 1_Cor_6:12; 1_Cor_7:4 (twice). See POWER. See also : exousiazo in other topics.

If the writers were trying to signify exercising authority in Titus 2:15 they would have used the noun EXOUSIA not EPITAGE.

[www.antioch.com.sg]

Lu 22:25 -  And He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it(KURIEUO) over them; and those who have authority (EXOUSIAZO)over them are called'Benefactors.' 26 "But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant.

2 Corinthians 1:24 - Not that we lord(KURIEUO) it over your faith, but are workers with you for your joy; for in your faith you are standing firm.

Also note the relationship was that of EVERYONE "working with" for joy.

Truthtesty

To the Forum:

Intresting article - "Do elders rule?"
[www.theexaminer.org]
..."If the Holy Spirit wanted to convey the idea that Elders (Bishops) had the authority that they now claim, He would have used the Greek word arche, which translates into "rule" or "power." One who had the authority to rule was archon, "a ruler" or "a magistrate.' By choosing hegeomai the Holy Spirit indicated that these men who "watch(ed) in behalf of your souls", were the leaders among them. Mr. Vine defines hegeomai "to lead, is translated to rule in Heb. 13:7, 17, 24 (A. V. marg(in) in the first two, are the guides and guide.)." Thus, Mr. Vine acknowledges the word to mean "to lead." It is interesting that the King James translators did insert the marginal rendering "are the guides." I believe that is exactly what they are in this case. They are the men who have the respect of the group to be the group's leaders or guides..."
[www.antioch.com.sg]

Truthtesty