QuoteIn a word, you cheat. Quote: Here is my reply to the dark motives behind the Orange Papers: "Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth. Prove it. Prove
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuotekathAA often tries to claim it is not a religion, but look how soaked in religious language and mentions of God Colter's arguments are. And now he contradicts himself completely and says 12-steppers should have freedom of religion. AA is centered on faith in God as that is defined by the individual. It has similarities to religion in it's customs but no stated orthodox doctri
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuoteYou might also consider this: The way in which you have responded to any questioning or criticism of AA is alarmingly similar to the methods by which other organizations, those considered "harmful", defend themselves from allegations of abuse or "cultishness". Have you considered that your ax to grind with AA is "alarmingly similar" to religious persecuti
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuotebarabaraYou have basically told all of us that have criticisms of AA that we are dishonest, lying alcoholics who have failed to "work the steps" Your opinions are insulting. Let me give you an example of what an insult from our side might be like: As an example, I could state that: Quote Almost without fail, people who claim I am misrepresenting the program by relating my
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuotebarabaraBy sources I meant some kind of research, or at least a professional opinion. Quote Almost without fail those who are critical of AA's twelve steps are bitter people who never actually tried them so rather they concoct in their mind a thousand and one reasons why they don't need to do them. They make that which is good out to be evil and that which is evil out to be good
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuotekathThis colter gets away with a lot of 'flaming' here that wouldn't be permitted if we were discussing other organisations. I don't think this is a site intended to just "trash" decent programs without rebuttal. With 16,000 page views in a relative short period of time I suspect that their are "vulnerable individuals," the ones that Barbara is s
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

Quotebarabaracolter says:QuoteAlmost without fail those who are critical of AA's twelve steps are bitter people who never actually tried them so rather they concoct in their mind a thousand and one reasons why they don't need to do them. They make that which is good out to be evil and that which is evil out to be good. Would you care to cite your sources on that statement? Do you have
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuoteMillwallJamesThanks for responding; you outline your bening experience within AA - and I am sure that you experience can indeed be passed on. You were two years younger than me when you went into AA - I went in at 23. I was, as you say, on my knees - but that did not justify a complete manipulation and change in character. I was a young man who messed his life up, and I went to AA to sto
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

Hi MillwallJames, I came to AA when I was 22 and have been sober now for 21 years. There is no question that the AA program IS about surrender of ones life, ones old self, ones core life motive, to God...... as we understand him or don't understand him. For me I had a transforming spiritual experience BEFORE I ever took AA's twelve steps. It was when I had reached a point w
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuotebarabaraYet you continually infer that we are misrepresenting AA by posting our personal experiences, and that we have hidden motives for doing so. Unless you are omniscient, you cannot possibly know what goes on at all meetings everywhere, so you do not have the right to invalidate our experiences. Your right Barbara, I can't know what goes on in the meetings in your area. I shoul
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuoteIndieQueenAnd you got all of that out of my saying that I'll keep a file of alternative options available to my clients? You do realize that keeping files of alternative options is standard right? Really, there's no point in even speaking to you. You know everything there is to know about me from one line of text. IndiQeen, I don't get it :shock: Didn't you
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

Barbara, I don't call people liers. QuoteThese types of rebuttals more closely resemble the actions of a cult watchdog against those who critique and question the "sacred science". I have not said that AA is sacred science, I have said that AA is sacred to me in that it has changed my life in positive ways that I never dreamed possible. The same goes for thousands of pe
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuoteIndieQueenLet's see, Colter, you all but said that I'd be a bad therapist becasue I don't agree with AA. You also speculated quite a bit about a lot of things where I"m concerned. You can't get much more personal than that can you? IndieQueen, If you carry such a severely distorted view of AA, if that bias "bleeds" into how you would treat alcoholi
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuoteIndieQueenSecular Humanism and the secular model for sobriety are two entirely different things. Try looking up some information on Secular Humanism rather than looking up SOS. Hi IndieQueen, Indi, I feel that you and Barbara have taken my debates to personally. I have no ill will for either of you. I admire Barbaras intellect and tanacity. I told her and I will tell you, this is
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

I remember the movie "American Beauty" about a straight guy whose next dour neighbor was a homophobe. The homophobe was certain that the straight neighbor was gay. At the end of the movie the homophobe tried to put the move on his neighbor and was rebuffed. The homophobe now turned gay was so distraught at the rejection that he murdered the straight neighbor. All this brings me to w
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Hello QuestionEverything, QuoteI agree with Barbara that there are some serious flaws with AA "doctrine." She has provided numerous links, such as orange-papers, which provide a critique of the 12-steps and, whether you agree with the critiques or not, provide support for her position. Barbara has not said specifically what her position is other than AA is "flawed", AA is
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuoteAs to "the doctor's opinion", it was written, if I am not mistaken, in the first half of the 20th century, during the 1930s. Certainly no educated, or indeed even sane person, would deny that great strides were made in the practice of medicine over the latter half of the 20th century. Widespread use of antibiotics, for instance, did not come into practice until the 1950s, af
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

The Doctors Opinion Alocoholics Anonymous. The doctor writes: "The subject presented in this book seems to me to be of paramount importance to those afflicted with alcoholic addiction. I say this after many years' experience as Medical Director of one of the oldest hospitals in the country treating alcoholic and drug addiction. There was, therefore, a sense of real
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuotedwestI agree that one size fits all does not work. But bring up SOS or SMART in an AA/NA/Al-Anon meeting and all heck breaks loose. You get those looks at you like "poor newbie doesn't get it". Some members may outright tell you that they are giving up on you. It is very sad that the XA programs can not admit there are other 'truths' out there, and that people a
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

From a NON_AA web site, deffinition of the alcoholic personality. To gain insight, consider carefully this commonly accepted list of personality traits found in the addicted person. These are characteristics that occur in normal people, but in the addict are exaggerated and uncontrolled. These things render addicts incapable of being at peace. Low Frustration and Tolerance seems to be th
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

Barbara, I knew you had a sense of humor in there somewhere, the South Park parody was hilarious!!!!! I like the part about his dad being a hypochondriac, this common trait of alcoholics leads some people to a paranoid state wherein they begin to think AA is a cult and makes people alcoholic. ........the persistence of the allusion is astonishing! thanks Colter
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuotebarabaraWhat is AA doing to try to stop manipulative and exploitive treatment of newcomers to AA by other members? I love this guy! Two of:Quote The Twelve Biggest Lies of A.A. Everything good that A.A. members do is Alcoholics Anonymous, but the bad things that A.A. members do is not really A.A... If a sponsor does some despicable thing that is not council-approved to a sponsee,
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

Quotebarabarato colter: The question is in bold red. Are you just being clever? Yes, you're very funny. There is no point in discussing this further with you, as you will obviously use any trick at your disposal to obfuscate the argument. Furthermore, you continually resort to insult to do so. I am through with you, (but not this topic). Barbera, None of my comments in m
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

Hi Kath, Welcome to the discussion, I agree with your post. In the AA manual we can find this line: Our liquor was but a symptom. So we had to get down to causes and conditions. I'm HA ADD, it was very helpful for me to understand what that is and the relationship to my alcoholism. As you pointed out it is quite possible to go to meetings where the atmosphere takes on a kind of
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuoteCan you answer this question? From what I can see, many AA believers only try to get everyone to stop talking and writing about it, and attack those who do, calling them liars, fabricators, claiming they "have an agenda", saying "they are jealous psychotherapists, etc. etc". When someone attempts to cover up, hide, and deny the existence of abuse, they are condoni
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

Quotebarabaracolter; You want me to tell you what my "angle" is? Why are you here? I'm interested in cults. I have encountered a few over the course of my life. I find this forum interesting. I don't have an angle. I came here doing some research concerning a very destructive cult located in Sadona Arizona. It is run by a fruit cake who thinks he's Gabriel
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

Quotebarabaracolter: QuoteQuote: I feel that the big book is seriously flawed, as were the founders of AA. I believe that the actual wording of the book permits and encourages some of the abhorrent behavior. I believe that "letting go and letting God" can be interpreted in ways that can be damaging to oneself and others. I believe that seeking to do God's will" is all
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuoteIndieQueenColter. I appreciate your comments, however, you really aren't in a position to judge what did or did not ruin my childhood are you? Unless you were there, you have absolutely no idea of the damage done to myself and my family as a result of my dad's involvement with AA. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't know exactly how patroni
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

....ahhhhhhh, links to the "American Aithiest" web site. We're getting warmer Barbara. Barbara, the courts send people to AA because they are wize enough and sometimes compasionate enough to see that the problem with many petty criminals is alcohol and drug addiction.........and the courts know that AA has worked where jail has not. Again, your trying to lump the personal b
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

QuotebarabaraYou have certainly demonstrated your ability to debate a point through insult, insinuation, and ad-hominem argument. You are making a lot of assumptions about others on this thread. I have not posted my experiences for your entertainment. :( Oh Barbara, come on now. Perhaps my sarcastic sense of humor doesn't translate well in writing. I have not attempted to insult you or
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse