QuoteUpsidedownnewspaper: Drinking is a real activity, if there is something other than the drinker that can influence whether or not the drinker drinks, that something must also be real and demonstrable. Undemonstrable hypothetical entities "beyond ourselves" do not intercede in our drinking. To say "I stopped drinking with the help of my belief in God" can be true, in th
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

But Barbara, what's wrong with that? If you went to your family doctor and he told you the same thing would that be more effective? It's like a chain smoker going to the doctor and being told that he needs to stop smoking because of any number of health risks associated with smoking? So the smoker says, "nah, my doctor is stupid and brainwashed by all them other doctors. The
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QuoteColter gives a most accurate representation of the program. His views and expressions are un-erringly orthodox, and identical to the views of the vast majority of the old-timers I met, (who are usually older): "We love, respect and tolerate you, because you are sick, but we are certain that you will eventually come around to our way of thinking because we know better and if you don&
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QuoteupsidedownnewspaperQuoteColterPrimitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionaliz
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Barbara, For what it's worth I relate to your thinking. I once though of myself as a "free thinker" but had no idea how shackled I was. I think that is the primary problem that you have with AA's program, it most certainly dose suggest that we surrender to God (however we define that). In AA an un surrendered free thinker stands out like a sore thumb.
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

Most cults that are centered around the personality or leadership of an individual dissolve after that individual dies. In order for spiritual movements or religions to live on they must be pregnant with enough vital living truth to immortalize them. With Buddhism it was Gautama Siddhartha, Islam it was Mohamed and Christianity Jesus. All of these contained spiritual content adiquate to carry the
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For the record I have no problem at all with the content of the first 164 pages of AA big book, and yes AA is named after the book Alcoholics Anonymous. As far as I am concerned it is revelation of spiritual truth for alcoholics. When the Big Book was written the intent was to carry the message out in the world where there were no meetings, so it was kind of a meeting in print. The BB has a s
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QuotebarabaraI'm finding the history of Buchman and the Oxford group, and how much AA dogma owes to Buchman's ideas, absolutely fascinating. Especially the ideas about receiving God's guidance only through group consensus, which has carried over into AA. Very interesting. You will also want to look at AA's extrapolations from the Book of James in the Bible as well as t
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

Quotebarabaracolter: QuoteWe can see how some of these elements can be misused by persons with a grudge for helpful groups. So, it's back to the old "they have a grudge" defense. Perhaps all of this unpleasantness is just a case of "the alcoholic personality" at play: QuoteBad things can happen when alcoholics communicate too directly with each other, as any bar
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QuoterrmoderatorColter: There is a very specific definition for a destructive "cult." See I don't know of any cult expert that has said, "AA is a cult." Hi Rick, Thanks for the link, I agree that AA is not a cult but I must say that I still see the term "cult" as very malleable. One could make the argument using some of the loose definitions that
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Quotebarabaracolter: Quotehe Washintonians evolved into a political/temperance movement and collapsed, the Oxford Group was the springboard for AA and is now known as "Moral Rerearament" Quote1. I. Group Profile 2. 1. Name: Moral Re-Armament 2. 3. Founder: Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman 1 The Oxford Group's aims are a new social order under the dictatorship of the spiri
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QuoteIt's a psychotic statement when taken seriously. Kind of like Urantia's aliens; rocket ships, divine protection only if your motives are pure.......... Nice little rip Barb! :wink: At times I understand you and at others you go off the ranch..... IMO. Back in another thread you indicated that you attended bible school and enjoyed it and that you have a Protestant religi
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QuoteughaibuColter: You appear to be overlooking the fact that membership of AA is not a prerequisite of sobriety. True ughaiba, all alcoholics eventually get sober, it's just that some of us get sober before we assume "room temperature". Prior to the birth of AA in 1934 the medical profession had little hope of bringing about long term sobriety for alcoholics. There were
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Quotebarabaracolter: You keep talking, repeatedly, about how "AA can't help it " if the courts coerce people into going to meetings, saying that AA does not promote itself. I keep pointing out that AA does promote itself to those courts. You can't disprove this, so you try to discredit me by claiming I am making a mountain out of a molehill. You are engaging in circula
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Quotebarabaracolter: It's all wordplay. If you promote an organization, you promote an organization. Call it whatever you want; we can see what is really going on by doing the research. You can ignore our research, refute our research, and deny our research as much as you like, and you have, repeatedly. It's ridiculous to even suggest that there are professionals in these area
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Tradition 11 long form: 11 . Our relations with the general public should be characterized by personal anonymity. We think A.A. should avoid sensational advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is never need to praise ourselves. We fe
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QuoteughaibuColter: Your post is too long, if it contains relevant points state them, briefly and simply. Your premise that God is merely in the imagination of man is as unprovable as the fact of God in reality. It is not an established fact but rather relies on a kind of faithful skepticism contrary to the fantastic mystery of life. QuoteThe very pessimism of the most pessimistic materi
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The fallacy of material mind determining "deviant reality" values. THE VULNERABILITY OF MATERIALISM "How foolish it is for material-minded man to allow such vulnerable theories as those of a mechanistic universe to deprive him of the vast spiritual resources of the personal experience of true religion. Facts never quarrel with real spiritual faith; theories may.
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QuoteughaibuColter: Precisely. Those for whom god does or doesn't exist, in their personal realities, are being coerced, directly by AA and indirectly by the courts, to adopt a concept of god that has effects in the real world. For the sake of argument I will follow your reasoning to the "effects," that would be sobriety for the hopeless alcoholic. Isn't that a positive effe
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Quotebarabaracolter: QuoteSo my question is, should we label science as "deviant reality" or should the flux of "good intentions" insulate science from the same "deviant categorizing." Science, unlike other "world views". or paradigms, if you will, is science because it relies on a series of logical, pre-agreed upon steps to arrive at it's conclusio
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QuoteMy interest in cults/dangerous groups is about two weeks old, so I'm still feeling my way around and have a lot of studying to catch up on, but from what I've read so far, I would say that Alcoholics Anonymous are promoting a deviant reality with their use of "god". AA's promotion of the God concept allows the individual member to define "God" according t
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I agree with you Barbara, that's why in one of my earlier post I mentioned that " I get it" I get what your saying. When I said that "your not crazy" I was trying to say that I have heard your criticisms of what you have legitimately experienced in AA meetings with predation, corrupt sponsorship, and "cult like" behavior by sick alcoholic AA members. What you
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QuotebarabaraQuoteThe worshipful communion of an AA meeting What are you talking about? What exactly does "worshipful communion" mean for you? Believers in God must increasingly learn how to step aside from the rush of life--escape the harassments of material existence--while they refresh the soul, inspire the mind, and renew the spirit by worshipful communion. I feel that I c
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Rational thought is discouraged or forbidden. Open discussion is encouraged and a variety of helpful messages can be extrapolated from an AA meeting. The cult's recruitment techniques are often deceptive. AA has a tradition of attraction rather than promotion. The cult weakens the follower psychologically by making him or her depend upon the group to solve his or her prob
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WHAT IS A CULT? The term "cult" is a pejorative label used to describe certain religious groups outside of the mainstream of Western religion. Exactly which groups should be considered cults is a matter of disagreement amongt researchers in the cult phenomena, and considerable confusion exists. However, three definitions dominate the writings of social scientists, Christian counter-
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QuotebarabaraIn the town I live in, it isn't any particular group that promotes destructive or cultish behavior; rather, destructive behavior seems to be pervasive in all meetings at the local "Alano club", and cultish dogmatism is the rule at many meetings taking place outside the club. I heard, every time I went to the Alano Club, admonishments to "make the group your hig
Forum: Recovery from Destructive Cults and Groups

Early sponsorship in AA was very different then what we have now. In Akron the sober alcoholics would meet once a week in someone's home and eventually moved out to the King school. On Saturdays they had a dance and socialized with each other. Back then people didn't go to 4 and 5 meetings a week, they worked their principles and practiced their faith in their life. A sponsor was the pe
Forum: Clergy and Therapy Abuse

retracted
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QuotebarabaraJesus said that the only way to reach God was through him. Are you saying that the only way to reach God is through AA? Or are you saying that AA teaches that the only way to reach God is through Jesus? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. I thought AA was about staying sober. So, is AA religious, after all? No, that's not at all what I�
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QuotebarabaraQuoteThat being the case why do you have so much objection to the AA program, it is chock full of the teachings of Jesus. Read my previous posts for the answer to your question. I don't get it??? Were basically doing in AA what Jesus taught his followers to do.....but we would avoid the turning of water into wine. :lol: Colter
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