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16 years ago
JackSF
rrmoderator -- Aside from tossing the same weblinks at me over and over, you've done nothing aside from complain about me repetitively and sarcastically. Speaking as one moderator to another, I'd say you've done a poor job of moderating this discussion. If you've got a specific point to make, please do so. Otherwise, I'm not doing your work for you and I don't e
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
LoriS -- First, thank you for a vivid, specific and heartfelt post. I don't doubt what you say and I'm sorry for the pain and loss you have experienced. As I have said, I'm glad this site exists. LGATs, including Landmark, have hurt people; I don't discount that. I came out of est, not damaged, but definitely pissed off by the contradictions and craziness. I never saw any
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>Again, it seems that your specific intention is to defend Landmark. >Your posts eventually come to that without fail. rrmoderator -- We've already been through this. See the topic I started, "Landmark Manipulation Techniques" for numerous counter-examples. And lately I've mostly been defending myself against unfair attacks. I will criticize Landmark a
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>Your comments are not on point, but really rather an effort to >divert attention from the facts you have repeatedly chosen to ignore >or "gloss right over." rrmoderator -- My comments were right on point for what I have been responding to--namely a pile-on of name-calling, ad hominem attacks and obvious misrepresentations of my position, not to mention a fai
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>It seems Jack was trying to be clever. More mindreading from rrmoderator. The fact is that I would recommend Landmark to some people, just not to anyone in this current discussion. I said what I meant to say--no more, no less. Oz -- I was sufficiently concerned about Landmark that I put off my SELP course and I haven't decided when or if I'll do it. I've been ta
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>You know Jack when people quote from an encyclopedia or some other >reference source the way you have, it seems like an admission that >they have run out of steam and essentially lost an argument. rrmoderator -- No, in the more usual world of discussion, quoting from a source is considered good form--a means of supporting one's assertions, and therefore indicates
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
So there's no mistake ... I would not recommend Landmark to those posting in this forum. In fact, I would recommend against it--not that I imagine anyone here wants my advice.
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>Seems like your purpose is to apologzie and/or shill for Landmark. > >Do you have anything else to say? rrmoderator -- If you read my posts attentively, you will notice that I have said many things about Landmark, some good, some bad. I started this topic in response to a question from a participant asking what I liked about Landmark. Now, aside from questioning m
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
rrmoderator -- Again, I am not the subject here. >Jack appears to be a Landmark groupie that only posts here to support and/or defend that group. False. I started this topic, "Landmark Mainpulations Techniques" and I have provided many substantive posts critical of Landmark. ******** Doing a little digging, I discovered that name-calling, at least acc
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>Sorry Jack, but that response falls flat like so many others you have made on this board. This is simply an argument by assertion. rrmoderator makes no attempt to support his point, he just asserts it. >It seems to me, the Landmark "supporters" who post here, (who claim >to not be supporting Landmark), have a very simple argument. They >basically
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
rrmoderator -- I am not the subject here. You and others here have spoken about critical thinking and the lack thereof among Landmark graduates. Frankly I haven't seen much critical thinking in this forum. The ad hominem is one of the most basic logical fallacies and name-calling, such as "You are an idiot", the most obvious variety of it. If you don't like my definiti
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
QuoteAttacking the Person (Ad Hominem Argument) This error is committed when a person's characteristics or circumstances are irrelevantly attacked in order to discredit her arguments or views. An arguer's personal characteristics are never relevant to the strength or soundness of her argument. --The Critical Thinking Handbook, Bierman & Assali How is calling me an "
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
rrmoderator -- Actually I've read most of the links here at Rick Ross and many good ones there are. I'm glad this site is here. My post does not persuade you? Fine. I didn't really expect that it would persuade most people here. Loris asked me questions; I answered them. However simply declaring that my football analogy falls flat and is an attempt to change the subject d
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
rrmoderator -- Glad you showed up. I moderate several online groups myself. In my groups and most other groups, ad hominems--such as "You are an idiot, Jack"--are prohibited. One of the elementary duties of a moderator is to step in when such name-calling appears. I respectfully request that you do so. Jack
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Markus, As best I can understand your argument, you are saying that because I've done Landmark I am now programmed by Landmark and therefore incapable of thinking for myself about Landmark and anything I might say in defense of Landmark can't be taken seriously. It's polite, but ultimately this too is an ad hominem argument. My arguments are not addressed directly but dismis
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>no one is attacking u. No, I'm just being called an "idiot", someone who is "losing humanity", a "snake-oil salesman" and "a product" and apparently a Nazi accomplice. These are still ad hominem arguments, gentlemen and gentlewomen. If you wish to engage me, please refrain. Also, keep in mind that I'm just one person with a life
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Lori, Sorry for being late with this response. As to your questons about adverse reactions. Landmark can be a stressful experience. They have toned it down considerably since the est days, but even so. I don't think Landmark is for everyone. However, the blunt fact is that just about everything has risks. For instance it's not well-known but each year six of seven Amercan
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
kittypaw -- Wow! Great post. Perfect detail. "Stepford-wives" is an analogy I have used to Landmark people to explain how they come across. Jack
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>You are an idiot, Jack.QuoteAttacking the Person (Ad Hominem Argument) This error is committed when a person's characteristics or circumstances are irrelevantly attacked in order to discreedit her arguments or views. An arguer's personal characteristics are never relevant to the strength or soundness of her argument. --The Criticial Thinking Handbook , Bierman & As
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>First, what makes you think you are dissenting? dissent -- to differ in opinion or feeling; disagree. >u may not even be able to comprehend the idea but since u have been >involved with landmark u havent had an opinion or a conclustion that >is your own. > >of course u dont claim your conslustions are right. u dont have any. > &
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Lori, Thank you for not responding with ad hominems. That's a large number of questions, so I may not get to all of them. Keep in mind that I only took the Forum four months ago. I have one Landmark friend, aside from some acquaintances I met under other circumstances and whom I see only occasionally. I have not kept up with any people from the Forum or the Advanced Course. Other
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
So I decided to drop in on sessions #8, #9 of a Landmark seminar series (a 10 session sequence meeting once a week) and I was surprised at some of the differences from an est Graduate Seminars circa 1983. * Smaller -- ~35 participants versus ~80-100. * Less hype for guests or seminar enrollment -- ~5 minutes versus ~40 minutes, as I recall, out of 3 hours. * Fewer guests -- only 1 guest per
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Welcome, Jan. I'm the guy who started this thread and I hope to hear more from you. I really appreciate information from the inside such as you have to offer. I was active in est for six years (only as a participant--leading intros and programs always looked way too heavy to me) and recently have taken the Forum and AC. I can well believe the abuse you describe and think it's gre
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
QuoteAttacking the Person (Ad Hominem Argument) This error is committed when a person's characteristics or circumstances are irrelevantly attacked in order to discreedit her arguments or views. An arguer's personal characteristics are never relevant to the strength or soundness of her argument. --The Criticial Thinking Handbook , Bierman & Assali Just so people know what
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>You do see that you waved aside the answers to your >questions FROM OTHERS regarding the cultic aspect. I listened, but just because people here answer my questions doesn't mean that I have to accept those answers anymore than I have to accept whatever I hear from Landmark people. >Close enough. He's a "provocateur," in his own mind. Or just
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>The person that started this? Probably a plant. No, just a guy who felt confused and ambivalent about Landmark after taking the Forum recently and est some years before. I was surfing for material on Landmark and this site had some of the best material I could find. Much of the criticism of Landmark here resonated with me. I added some criticism of my own. (See "Landmark Ma
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
It's nice to see that the threads I started here are still pretty active. After being attacked on this board and on a Landmark board for not getting with the respective programs of either vilifying Landmark or supporting it, I took a break. Then I talked to my friend whose example led me to consider the Forum. She said that if I was concerned that Landmark was a cult, then that was tota
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
What are the details to this class action in Ohio?
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>I finished SELP a few months ago and there is absolutely no moment >when the "leader" gives you the opportunity to leave dutch -- Thanks for the friendly post and the heads-up. They didn't give an opportunity to leave in my Advanced Course either so I figured there probably wasn't one in SELP. Basically after my recent experience in the online Landmark
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Guy -- As far as I'm concerned, you're just a particularly thuggish version of a Landmark leader telling me the way I am and the way the world is with no support other than your willingness to be abusive. It's the same deflection counter-attack type of manipulation documented in the other thread. I don't like it in Landmark and I don't like it here either. I would be
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
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