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16 years ago
JackSF
>And constantly seperating Est from Landmark, though a clever public >relations and apologetic device, falls a bit short of reality. I separate est and Landmark to separate my experiences of twenty years ago and my more recent ones with Landmark. It's not a device. Believe it or not, there are differences. How significant those differences I wouldn't say since I on
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
sunsetserene -- Thanks for your heartfelt response to this thread, and your earlier ones as well, which are the sort of posts I hoped to see. One small thing. I don't know that appealing to American Psychological Association will provide much support. Raymond Fowler, an Executive Vice President and CEO of the APA is on record that:QuoteIn my opinion, the Landmark Forum does not place in
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>That was clever. I love that combining of the name and the burning down part. You confused me for a bit before I got the Guy Fawkes reference. Actually when I wrote it I was thinking about William S. Burroughs' novel, Junky, in which 'burn down' is slang for when an addict goes to a doctor for prescription meds so much that the doctor won't prescribe them anymor
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
LoriS -- You'll notice that I based my post on observations from a friend. This friend didn't like est. I paid for him to do it and he dropped out after the first weekend--twice. Still he was willing to grant that est did some good for me. I don't think est gave me qualities I didn't have already. But after est I felt more able to let them shine. Now I know that to s
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
rrmoderator, gc4602 -- Thanks for the substantive posts. elena -- To me room for dissent in an online group means being able to post views different from the group yet respectful without being harassed with ad hominems, mindreading, sarcasm etc. Yes, I can continue to post here--as I can in the Landmark group--but past a certain point what's the point. When I see people routinely respon
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Yes. Concerns about whether a group is a cult or not, are often really about what Lifton and Singer call thought reform. These are excellent passages that I refered to often in my cult discussion in the Landmark group.QuoteI do not believe that either Landmark or The Landmark Forum is a cult or sect, or meets the criteria of a cult or sect. --Margaret Singer Landmark uses this tiny snippet fro
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
I've been through the web pretty thoroughly about Landmark and cult issues. There is little that Elena or anyone can post here that I haven't seen before. And I've recently argued that Landmark is a cult in a pro-Landmark group, so I know the definitions and arguments quite well. So please give up the idea that I'm naive or uninformed. It would be nice too if people gave
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
I'll quote Harry Rosenberg again:QuoteIn the United States, we have altered the public conversation about our workand our enterprise. For example, it is no longer possible for informed people or publications to pin pejorative labels on us. In the anti-cult world there's no question where Landmark and Erhard stand. However, in the rest of the world I'd say Rosenberg is right and, f
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Unlike Guy, I did not burn down my family, friends, and workplace when I was sharing the Training. I told everyone about it, and let them know that I would be happy to take them to a guest seminar if they liked, but I didn't push it any further than that. It was a golden rule thing--I knew I wouldn't want to be treated that way and if I was, it would only push me away from est, so
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Gosh. I do make you guys crazy. You are misreading me entirely. I'm serious about this topic and Landmark has been so determinedly litigous about any association of their name with the word 'cult' that they have scared a number of people publishing in any format (note the big DISCLAIMER at the bottom of every web page here) that I don't know where the RR moderator draws t
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Whoa! I'm pleased to discover that this thread topic made it past the moderator. Those of you who are critical of Landmark would do well to focus on the cult question. Landmark's case that they are not a cult is largely a bluff. Their real muscle is the threat of lawsuits. In open debate, however, it's difficult for them to make headway against the cult charge. I know that
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
QuoteIn the United States, we have altered the public conversation about our workand our enterprise. For example, it is no longer possible for informed people or publications to pin pejorative labels on us. --Harry Rosenberg, CEO Landmark Education Corporation Is Landmark a cult? Landmark has worked hard, most notably through lawsuits, to prevent Landmark from being called a cult in public.
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Guy -- You asked for it. Now I'm going to "share"! This week I have a houseguest, one of my oldest, dearest friends that I've known since high school. While he's been here, we've talked over the Landmark stuff. He said that as he remembers me before and after the est Training, and he said that he saw a big change in me--that I came out from the intense shyness
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
To be sure, NLP techniques can be used by the unscrupulous to manipulate people. You could check out Ross Jeffries' Speed Seduction site for an obvious example. However, basic to the practice of NLP, as taught in all NLP practitioner courses, is the notion of the "outcome frame" -- obtaining a clear, specific statement of what the client wants in the client's terms. When
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
gc -- Another great post. I love the detail. Along a similar line, not only are most of the words in the Landmark conversation scripted but much of the non-verbal part too. At my Advanced Course there was a senior Leader sitting at the back who was training the the younger guy leading at the front of the room. On occasion the senior guy would stand up and breathe fire into the room. His d
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Guy -- End of the personal discussion. I'm interested in what you have to sav about Landmark, not about me. Period.
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
I would like to know more about the frequency of adverse mental reactions to Landmark. Even from reading literature critical of Landmark I didn't realize they were not rare--aside from being bummed about the money and the manipulation of course. However, I respect gc's word on this. I do remember that I found est/Landmark upsetting for quite some time after I left. Five years late
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
> LEC 2020 I think I'm getting the picture. LEC 2020 was a big Landmark event about LM's mission plan for where it wants to be in 2020. I'm guessing that "Transformation: The Genesis of a New Realm of Possibility" was unveiled at that time and is now a seed that Landmarkians memorize, recite and refer to, as we did in the Advanced Course. >Everyone w
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
gc -- Thanks, your post contains exactly the detailed specifics that I appreciate. Having assisted at est I knew that special targeting was an ongoing practice and from what little I've seen at Landmark it's clear there is special handling for people who would supply entrance into other communities. Everyone -- It may be a drag, but I am going to come to my own conclusions in my own
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>And the other phrase which is a pure deflection in any given >situation is "you really need to notice who you are being at this >moment".... >It's never their fault, it's always about you. Any chance to >deflect something back on you is always taken. That is classic. This is dead bang-on to what unnerves me the most in dealing w
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Guy -- Call me naive, but I have the idea that human beings and human institutions are neither all good nor all bad. Much of life, as I experience it, is learning to distinguish the two and do one's best with what's there. I haven't reached a conclusion about how Landmark's pluses and minuses balance. I find it an interesting question. We probably disagree about many t
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Guy -- Actually you don't know what I want to hear, and I'm tired of people here and in the Landmark group mindreading me. Frankly you're handling me the same way the Landmark people are. "You'll look for all the reasons why I am wrong and why you're right." What I would like to hear is specifics about what goes on at the staff level that you were privy to
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
I remember "doing what works" from est, but not "it works for me." My most vivid memory of that phrase was Mel Gibson's semi-psycho performance in "Lethal Weapon". As far as I know "it works for me" is not Landmark jargon but a common American expression. If anyone can demonstrate otherwise, let me know. Check the web--it's everywhere. Th
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Guy -- I have other communities, friends and neighbors. I wouldn't mind having more. Plus I do have a few friends in Landmark and I respect them, which is why I did the Forum in spite of my concerns. And yes, I'm also a curious fellow who likes to learn things. It's gotten me into trouble now and then, but my instincts are generally pretty good. I found my way out of est and
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>and now u tell us that it has been >toned down ? Compared to how it was done at est, yes. Back in those days there was a big scary buildup to these things with big scary names--"The Danger Process", "The Fear Process". And in the Fear Process, all the chairs were pushed to the sides of the room, the lights were turned out, and people lay on the floor while
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Rude Dawg -- I'd prefer you find or start a different thread for questions about Rick Ross. This one is important to me and I would like it to remain coherent. Getting back to the topic, I do want to hear more Landmark manipulation techniques. >people were processed until they gave in every time. >(typically with the horsesh*t line about being unreasonable) Another cl
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>You're not going to get the real experience of camaraderie, >contribution and challenge through LEC. Only a facade that will >keep you coming back for more. Could be. One of the my post-est insights was noticing that after six years of continuous participation I did not make a single friend. Now it's true that I don't make friends like a house afire,
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation. -- Cognitive dissonance is different from the trance language I described earlier, but elena is correct that it is "easier to sneak up on someone who is confused." In Ericksonian hypnosis (whi
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
elena -- Yes, I've read and reread Outrageous Betrayal a number of times. I know that side of the story. I keep hoping that there is something to salvage, that it's not all just a con and strip-mined idealism. >We didn't change anything about the core business from est...we just >changed how slickly we presented. We don't have to shock like we >u
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
JackSF
>Two, what are indications that a teacher, trainer or 'guru' is >making covert use of Neurolinguistic Programming? Listen for odd, abrupt pauses and changes in tone or tempo when teacher is speaking. "You don't have to help me with the dishes." (The embedded command is "help me with the dishes.") Notice if the teacher imitates the posture
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
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