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16 years ago
socrates
to quote directly from one of your links: "Recently, theories of learning have become more interactional, seeing acquired or inherited behavior. internal cognitive factors, and environmental influences operating as reciprocal determinants of each other (ie, behavior affects the environment and cognitions; cognitions affect the environment and behavior; and the environment influences behav
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
Well, I've got one foot out of the door. The other will follow soon. Let's reframe this some. I think you will agree that there is a spectrum of responses to coercive methods. It isn't Either/Or. A few remain totally within their own locus of control. When I speak of internal literacy I mean that a person is skillful at mediating internal dialog, internal imagery, they are "
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
:D OK, in parting with your company, let me say this. The problem has much to do with rigidity. It would help greatly if people who though about LGATs, cults, and all of their ilk had a good funtional model for the distinction between rigid and elastic thinking. It is also very impostent to make the distinction between a finely honed mind and an elastic mind. A mind, as also can be true wi
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
Sorry. Powerful thought can be disturbing. Disturbing to illusions, disturbing to the settled order of things. Maybe what is actually disturbing is that there is knowledge you don't understand, knowledge you never knew existed. Doesn't make you wrong. Doesn't make you bad. You might have to accept though, that some people have been places you haven't, and they have done things
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
that's ok with me. Let me explain something about me. I have made consciousness exploration a major part of my life. I have tremendous respect for what it can mean when done in a powerful and coherent way. I also have experienced deep revulsion at at abuses of consciousness that I have seen. I'm not saying the things I say from random disgruntlement. These are based on a life time of my
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
hmmmmmm..... that certainally is an interesting perspective....: "And no one "must discuss language explicitly and...must understand it on a higher logical level." Really now ? Why do you say that ? "The concern of this website is education (i.e. RI is an educational nonprofit), not philosophy, nor is it concerned with "what your humanity means." Most
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
"I understand now why Corboy wrote the response he did. Socrates, did the thought ever cross your mind that your reaction might have caused greater confusion or more psychological damage than the original course to the other participants????????" Trust me, baby, I know EXACTLY what I'm doing. We're not simple bumkins, you see ! " If you actually did want you say
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
I don't mean this as a personal affront. I do think we need to look at how this intial question got dissapeared in the present discussion. Notice that Alexis raised what appears to be a fascinating question: "I was wondering if any ex-FLs or ex-staffers (or anyone who's overcome these) could help with dispelling the Should/Have-To "conversation" in the forum and the Ne
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
Knowledge is Power. The critical piece to think about here is that EST/Landmark and Wernerism (is that aphilosophy, a religion, or a fashion statement ?) are NOT confined to the classroom, so to speak. Their cognitive styles, means of describing things, languaging things, even the peculiar intonations of their voices, have generalized into our culture as a whole. You don't need to at
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
this like will take you to an NLP site which details the "pieces of the manipulation machine". LEC actively uses these pieces for their ends, NLP uses them for other ends. You must understand that you are dealing with a "meaning making machine" and that machine is made up of components. Here they are. Pay close attention to: "Nominalization: A linguistic distinction in
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
thanks, templar ! "I'm on your side more than you're on your side" - a line used by forum leaders to get you to behave. :?
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
Your friend is trying to handle more thought loops that a bagful of pretzels. The best thing is to find a neutral topic (something that he did have a strong interest in that isn't Forum related) and discuss it at length. Could be fly fishing, could be civil war history, just talk and listen. Let him regain a feel for his old interests. He's been programmed to get upset if you challenge
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
"Sorry, but your attitude reminds me of the hard-ass est/forum beliefs." That's too bad. I came by my hard assed thinking the old fashioned way. I got sick of watching people let themselves be mentally raped, OK ? The way you don't get mentally raped is you learn to think hard, you don't make nicey nice because some creepy peer pressure gig tells you to make nicey nice
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
Your attitude is fatalistic and your position is incorrect. I nicely fucked up a Six Day training and I knew exactly what I was doing. I out thought them and broke their trances. Well and thoroughly. The trainers themselves didn't even know what was going on until the last minute, and by then it was too late. The key point is NOT that you possess raw intelligence or not. The key is that you
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
on balance, it is vastly more important to open the doors, windows, ventilation shafts, and let people know what IS happening. The more the public consciously understands HOW they are manipulated, be it by LGATs, advertising campaigns, public relations companies, political spin doctors, then the more they are liberated to think for themselves. The risk of another Werner Erhard coming along ? Fea
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
my flashing meme alert warning light is signaling something :idea: Nobody here will describe specific inductions, specific language, specific routines. I don't believe that's accidental. I strongly suspect that "the technology" has implanted, much more deeply and efficiently than you consciously realize, prohibitions against being fully conscious of what transpired. A good p
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
well, I must disagree about that point as far as my personal experience is concerned. I listened to Sugrue's Plato course and read some of the Dialogs long after my EST experience. I found it to be wonderfully liberating. 5th century BC Athens was infested with cultic types, the Sophists. Plato's Socrates would be very much like an interviewer in today's media. He sits these guys d
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
the key to the lock is specificity. Try and describe one, just one, hypnotic sugestion they used, in detail. the EST trainer pulled this one on us. He got all worked up as we were zoning out in a light trance, and then he bellowed "if you keep doing things the way you've been doing things you WILL get CANCER :twisted: !!!!!!!!!" Besides being absolute horsecrap on a factual
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
OK that was an overgeneralization. When I did EST I had the feeling that a high percentage of the participants wanted to get "it" without doing long term work, therapy, real growth experiences. The selling point was that EST had a technology that could move you to that place without the long study, struggles, dealing with real life over time. A good example is my neighbors. The hav
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
Unfortunately, most people are apallingly lazy when it comes to using their minds. LGATs work very hard at A. moving you into a highly suggestible state, and then B. forming new unconscious associations while you're there, then C. installing "thought locks" that make it difficult to think in ways that defeat their new associations formed in step B. Those who have been through b
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
a great technique for reclaiming "locus of control", the confident sense that you are directing your own thought processes, is a phrase borrowed from the intelligence community, "walk the cat backwards". Write out your best literal understanding of what these terms mean. Explain what the disctinctions are so that a non-participant could easily understand what about them mak
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
I'm in total agreement with that. 20 years ago we didn't have this board. There was no way to compare notes with others who had a critical perception of the LGATs. The LGATs are sneaky about installing a belief, or I guess you could call it an "implant", that is if you are unhappy with their program, it is because there is something deeply wrong with you (never with them, beca
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
The most significant distinction for me is that EST/Landmark Forum was and is a privately held for profit organization. That means that nobody gets to see their financial statements or books. Where exactly is their money going ? Who gets it ? The second massive incongruity is the all but complete disappearance of Werner Erhard. Here was a man who was held up as an exemplar, living proof of
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
That may be his purpose, although one should be cautious when ascribing motives to others, or "mindreading". Even if it is his purpose, no harm in letting him have his say. If his points can be rebutted, then let's rebut them. Critical thinking is well honed thereby. Please, lets not reduce ourselves to the level of those wretched trainers who rely on nothing else than their ord
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
yeah, ok, but he's, warytraveller that is, has a good point and the same thing has bothered me for the longest time. My family is irritatingly christian, although not catholic and my non-christianity has been one of the subliminal hard things between us. Expedia is sending me my one way ticket to Hell, on Heresy Airlines.... as far as the Catholic church is concerned: "There a
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
you may find the whole article here: BTW, that's Freiberg, not Freidberg, university, or University of Freiberg for you purists reading this... sorry about the spelling error on the last post... Contra Mundum No. 13 Fall 1994 Heidegger Deconstructed by Peter J. Leithart (please note some very curious correspondences between Heidegger and Landmark philosophy: " the great
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
I believe that I'm beginning to see a pattern here. You have an article by A. Gottleib posted on your website that discusses the bad influence of Martin Heidegger on philosphy, language, and, ummmmm..."being in time". Heidegger was the house philosopher of the Third Reich. They made him the rector of Freidburg Unviersity: "Before Heidegger became the Nazi rector of the U
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
searched around, these came up: "Attacks on Peripheral versus Central Elements of Self and the Impact of Thought Reforming Techniques" Richard Ofshe and Margaret T. Singer, The Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 3 #1, Spring/Summer 1986; American Family Foundation, P.O. Box 1232, Gracie Station, New York, NY 10028 (212) 533-0538 "The Utilization of Hypnotic Techniques in Religi
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
"There are certain "implants" that are designed to find a resting place in the innermost core of a person's personality or character and alter the rest of his or her beliefs, ideas, impressions, feelings, and behavior. " Implants ? My girlfriend had them, firm silicone gel, looked great in a tight sweater though... Seriously, that's a fascinating idea. How woul
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
16 years ago
socrates
""Socrates", you described something that sounded like the 6 day. Is that what you were talking about? If so, you went way further than me. Some of my friends did it. I said no way. Detailed divulging of intimate details of your sex life....yikes!!! I was way to square back then to be part of that! And I know how to keep those healthy boundaries now! " The course was called
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
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