Heh, WT didnt have to post more than once in "The Anti Cult Cult" Topic before I knew what he was all about...

Im good... :wink:

Sorry Warytraveller2, did confuse you with another apologist.

I am Jewish, which is posted at the Ross Institute main page under About Us.

My work has included serving on two national committees for the Union of American Hebrew Congregations, the largest Jewish denomination.

So, yeah I guess people who post here do believe in something, just not EST/Landmark and other groups that appear to hurt people on a steady ongoing basis.

I have been receiving serious complaints about EST/Landmark since 1983. And now receive almost daily complaints.

But most organized religions, support groups, educational seminars, schools, clubs and organizations are benign.

The so-called "cults" and destructive groups listed at the Ross Institute database actually occupy a very small portion of the overall population.

But a small portion is still millions of Americans, and many millions more around the world that fit into the "cult" category.

The relevant issue that defines destructive groups (as previously linked) is not belief, but behavior. And if groups don't hurt people they typically generate very little concern.

EST/Landmark constantly generates complaints, bad press, lawsuits and critical posts on this board.

At best Landmark is a controversial group with a very troubled history.

And unlike the Catholic Church they don't seem to be doing anything about it, except blaming the victims and engaging in constant denial about the inherent problems within their course structure.

Like you, they cite specious polls about satisfied customers. But produce no objective evidence to support their claims.

No one has ever called me in my 22 years of full-time work experience dealing with cults and destructive groups and said, "The Catholics brainwashed"--my son, daughter, wife or partner.

For that matter I am still waiting for my first call about "brainwashing" concerning the Presbyterians, Methodists, Unitarians, Tibetan Buddhist followers of the Dalai Lama, Anglicans, Humanists, Nazarenes, American Baptist Convention and list goes on and on.

But I get "brainwashing" complaints about Landmark all the time.

Do you get "it"?

Rick wrote:

"I am Jewish, which is posted at the Ross Institute main page under About Us.

My work has included serving on two national committees for the Union of American Hebrew Congregations, the largest Jewish denomination.

So, yeah I guess people who post here do believe in something, just not EST/Landmark and other groups that appear to hurt people on a steady ongoing basis."

Good post. I have no disagreement with anything you've said. In fact, if I stuck around Est long enough I may have had an overall bad experience. But I didn't. So my posts reflect that I was satisfied with their "product."

As "Socrates" posted earlier, let's not try to "mind read." I said I liked the Est Training I took years ago. Nothing more than that. And I won't change that view because others tell me it can't be true. I can see that some did not have a positive experience or if they did they changed their minds after being manipulated or used.

Honestly, I'm one of the worlds biggest skeptics. Some would say I'm cynical. I apply that approach equally. Whether it is LGATs, religious institutions, or a Cult Education Forum.

Oh, and I got it! Thanks for stating your position so directly and honestly.

The most significant distinction for me is that EST/Landmark Forum was and is a privately held for profit organization. That means that nobody gets to see their financial statements or books. Where exactly is their money going ? Who gets it ?


The second massive incongruity is the all but complete disappearance of Werner Erhard. Here was a man who was held up as an exemplar, living proof of his philosophy, a man who would change the world.

Yet, he vanished and has never made a public statement surrounding the events that ended his carreer as The Messiah II.

Two highly implausible explanations are given by Werner apologists.

Scientology has hit men who are planning to eliminate Werner, thus he has to stay out of public view.

And, in order to protect his family from further embarrassment Werner is making the tough decision to remain silent. This is then offered as proof of his deep devotion to his family.

What I find exceedingly strange is that the Forum community, former ESTies, etc, have been able to engage in whatever cognitive gymnastics need to rationalize this event. What kind of philosophical system or "mind science" makes possible the uncritical acceptance of patently ludicrous explanations given for Werner's conduct ???

In my thinking, it was the way that he personally, and the rest of his followers RESPONDED to the crisis was infinitely more telling about the way their belief systems operated than the 60 Minutes expose itself.

LGATs:

First, there are many ways to be Roman Catholic--there are ultra conservative Catholics, politically liberal Catholics. Go to various parishes in your own city and each will have a different ambiance.

There are Catholics in communion with Rome who use the liturgy, theology and canon law of the Eastern Christian Churches--these are the 'Byzantine Catholics' whose traditions trace from Central and Eastern Europe and the Near East. Their calendar of saints and liturgical music are totally different from those of Latin Catholicism, yet they are in full communion with Rome.

There is no such diversity within a problematic LGAT.

The Vatican is under constant media scrutiny all over the world. Some newspapers have special correspondants stationed in Rome who report regularly on changes in church policy.

Many loyal Catholics who disagree with various policies of the church publish newspapers (National Catholic Reporter) and journals (The Tablet)

and do so unmolested by the Vatican.

This is more than can be said of most problematic LGATs.