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The Anticult
I used to believe in a "sophisticated" form of New Thought, [skepdic.com] which leads you down some strange paths.
You try to believe that Thought has some kind of direct impact on the "external" world, in some spooky way. This is at the root of almost all new agey philosphies.

And as mentioned, you get into things like the Confirmation Bias [skepdic.com] and other related thinking errors.

With CBT, you take a belief, and then try to see how accurate it is. If you think about it, it really makes sense.

Just that one thing, to look for real evidence for a belief, seems to help alot.
But again, this is real evidence, not Post-Hoc fallacies, or the Confirmation Bias.
It also takes courage to be ready to give up a sacred cow belief, if it is false.

"You try to believe that Thought has some kind of direct impact on the external world." Yes, that sounds very much like the Buddhist chanting group that I was in, and the Christian meditation group that Sallie was describing.

My group is VERY big on stories. Leaders pushed you to tell "experiences" at meetings -- basically this followed a formula. You had some problem, you chanted about it a lot, and you resolved it. If the problem was a very serious one, perhaps you had to go to a leader to get "guidance" (Their advice was usually to chant more, work more for the group, and sometimes give a financial donation to the organization as well.) There always had to be a happy ending to the tale!

In the beginning, I'd think, "That sounds corny, and unrealistic when I heard some experiences." Over time, though, my thinking changed....so slowly and subtlely that I didn't realize it. You can say, "Oh, it's just someone's story," but you hear enough of these stories from people that you like and trust -- and you really get into this confirmation bias, where you see what you expect to see.

If a member is chanting a lot, other members will constantly remind him or her of all the things that are going well. The smallest success will be magnified, treated as a huge triumph. Any setbacks or problems that the person faces will be dismissed or minimized. "It's no big deal. The way you're going, you'll overcome it in no time!"

If things go badly wrong for a member, other members will say things like, "Well, maybe you're not chanting enough," "You're chanting with the wrong attitude," or "You're not working hard enough for the group."

This kind of thinking becomes a filter through which you view and reinterpret everything that happens in your life. The filter really becomes a big part of your thinking -- and you might not even realize it. People who say, "Well, if you didn't like your organization, why didn't you just leave?" just don't get it at all. The group has just slowly, gradually changed your thinking --- yeah, you can leave the group physically -- but the group is IN your head now. Even if you are miles away from them.

I took a creative writing class a few years ago, and the teacher said something that has remained with me: "People think of memory as this permanent, unchanging thing -- but the truth is, we constantly break down and rebuild our memories as we go through life." We're always learning new things that we then use to reinterpret the past...and change the present and future. This got us into our group, and their way of thinking --- but it can also get us out.

I also think that the placebo affect, and the effects that chanting and meditation can have on the brain can't be discounted.

My father, when he was in the Navy as a young man, had this shipmate who had terrible insomnia. The guy consulted the medic, who gave him some pills and told him, "These are the strongest sleeping pills I have. Just take one before you go to bed -- never more than one." The guy was soon sleeping like a baby. The medic told him, much later, that the pills were really just sugar, a placebo! Yet the sailor believed he was taking a strong sedative -- and so he slept.

In my case, I was told so many times that chanting could change my life -- and when I began chanting, I felt so different, calmer and more focused. In the past, situations like job interviews were terrible for me. My anxiety would keep me from speaking and presenting myself well. Then I started chanting before interviews -- and I could go to an interview feeling more calm and confident. I'm not saying that chanting got me the job in the sense that it sent positive vibrations out into the universe for me...nothing mystical like that. It's more that chanting reduced my anxiety and allowed me to put my best foot forward at the interview.

Getting the job made me feel, "Well, if this worked out for me, maybe other things can too." My family had, and has, a very negative view of the world -- they never thought that anything was going to work out, for anyone. If you applied for a job, hundreds of better-qualified people probably had too. You wanted to meet someone? There were no good men, or women out there. If you were going to a party, it was probably going to be a bore. Yes, when I first met members of my group, they seemed awfully Pollyannna -ish, but their optimism felt like an antidote to the gloom and doom I'd grown up with.

Being a member of this group was not totally awful -- the chanting did relieve my anxiety. The other members' optimism did make me feel that I could change my life, that good things could happen to me. It's just that, after awhile, I started noticing a lot of things that I just couldn't accept, like the extreme dedication to our leader.

This is the problem. The group WASN'T totally awful; if it had been, I'd have just left fast. I'm aware of the bad, and potentially dangerous aspects of my old group -- but how do you stop missing the good parts?

the placebo effect is something that has to be looked at very carefully.

placebo effect
[skepdic.com]

but in theory one doesn't have the throw out the baby with the bathwater.
For example, lots of people say a "Hail Mary" and that seems to help emotionally.
and basic Mindfulness meditation unconnected with a cult, seems to help people.

and hey, there might even be a classical Buddhist "chant" a person could do, if they are into that, that might be helpful to them. Like you see on TV the classical monks chanting in that low-voice in the mountains...
certainly neutral "chanting" could calm the mind, in many ways. it doesn't have to be connected with a cult.
or martial arts, or some Samurai mythology. [en.wikipedia.org]

The problem is never really with the "content" its with the destructive group that exploits people.
The SGI leadership appears to just be cynically using some classical methods to control people.

Quote
The Anticult
certainly neutral "chanting" could calm the mind, in many ways. it doesn't have to be connected with a cult.

Anticult, you are right, a person can just chant or meditate without being part of some group. Still, I think a person has to be careful with chanting and meditation, if they're leaving a cult where these were practiced. Right after I left my group, I could not chant...trying to just triggered too many thoughts and memories of the group. I tried a different chant, that I'd learned in a yoga class...same thing. The act of chanting simply triggered bothersome thoughts. Silent meditation may work for some people. For me, it never really has; I seem to just daydream or fall asleep if I try. I really needed to take a break from chanting, and I did.

Now that more time has passed, I find that I can chant and it's a good experience again. I still chant as I was taught by my group. It's what I know...going out and looking for another mantra, a different prayer just doesn't seem natural. I still believe in this religion. Why would I want to recite another religion's words -- or sounds that mean nothing to me?

The period when I couldn't chant -- I was knitting a lot. Now, I'm a terrible knitter, and I often had to unravel my stitches...but somehow, it was just relaxing. I would also just write on my computer, just typing out whatever I thought without editing or censoring it. Most of that, I later deleted, but the act of writing also was soothing. So, I don't know, if you can't meditate or chant, maybe you can write? Or knit, string beads, walk, sway and move around to music, sand a piece of wood -- anything repetitive that requires a bit of concentration?

yeah, I agree. People should find something that they feel comfortable with.
In theory, they could even find a LOCAL group of people that they can hang out with, who have a similar interest. That social connection is crucial.
But of course, that's tricky. Just have to make sure these folks are not part of some global or local culty group!!

There are even loose groups of things around hobbies, or even some Humanist groups that get together once in a while, that type of thing.

But my rule of thumb is if you find yourself chanting for a Mercedes, or praying in front of a life-size poster of a dude in an orange pajamas with huge hair (Sai Baba)...then you may be on the wrong track!!
Just please stay away from all these "self-improvement" seminars that cost thousands, or maybe start at a few hundred. They exploit all these human needs, its a huge business.

but Mindfulness meditation is being proven by studies to have good effects for some people. CBT has been proven to help many people.
Or maybe learning science and thinking about the Laws of Nature can provide the same thing. There is no meditation as calming as thinking about how the law of gravitation works throughout the entire known universe! Or how Evolution works...thinking can be very calming too, contrary to what the cults tell you as they try to suppress your ability to think!

Your problem isn't really that you don't meditate enough or that you waste a lot of time. Your problem seems to be that you obsess about whether these things are "good" or "bad" or "right" or "wrong". Let go of all these thoughts and self-judgments and maybe you will begin to understand that these thoughts are the cause of your suffering. In reality...EVERYTHING you do is a spiritual activity.

You do not need to go anywhere or do anything. You do not need to follow a guru or become Buddhist simply because all your friends have become Buddhists. All you need to do is let go of all this obsessive thinking and look within yourself...no guru can do that for you. Allow yourself to be at peace.

My advice would be to spend a few minutes each day asking yourself, "what is it that is noticing these thoughts?". Do NOT expect to find an answer...just asking that question is enough. You can do it in between television programs and you do not have to sit cross-legged to do it. Anytime you find yourself getting carried away with self-destruction thoughts about being too spiritual or not spiritual enough...let go of that guilt and interrupt the pattern you have created by asking this question.

You do not need to make yourself suffer just because you don't meditate enough or have a guru. You have created a problem where there is no problem. What's important is that you forgive yourself for all the unnecessary suffering given yourself. You do not deserve to suffer like that.

There is an open awareness within you and around you and that open awareness is enlightenment itself. No guru can give it you and, although beneficial for some people, no amount of hours sitting cross-legged can give it to you. Spend some time each day connecting to this open awareness...even if it's just a couple of minutes while sitting in a lazy-boy chair. When you find yourself going back to your obsessive self-judgment about who "you should be" and "who you shouldn't be"...just laugh it off and tell yourself, "I am doing my best and that's all I can ask of myself".

I know a lot of posters here will not like this advice but I give it in all sincerity. You can try it out and then decide you want nothing to do with it. I am just offering it because I have been in similar shoes and have found a way out through years of looking. I have not changed my clothes or my taste in music. I still love watching football and basketball games. I still have the same friends. The only difference is that my suffering has disappeared and not there is a great sense of inner peace and feeling of completeness.

I hope this helps and I would like to end by saying...let the flaming begin!

THE_DEAN_001
Your problem isn't really that you don't meditate enough or that you waste a lot of time. Your problem seems to be that you obsess about whether these things are "good" or "bad" or "right" or "wrong". Let go of all these thoughts and self-judgments and maybe you will begin to understand that these thoughts are the cause of your suffering.


Dean,
OK. I give up. I re-read the statement and your explanation several times. Help me out. A thought that ''causes suffering'' would not be good....correct? So the thoughts which ''cause suffering'' and are not good....would be bad...correct? So are you saying that it is ''bad'' to think about what is good or bad because.....nothing is bad????
Or are you saying that only ''thinking something is bad''....is ''bad''.
I admit...I just don't understand your point.
Also...obsessing would be to think repetitively...correct? So if it is bad to obsess then, are you saying it is bad to meditate??

Dean,
One more question. To judge would be to discern and separate....correct? Humans being the complicated creatures that we are.....we tend to create many categories and names for our deductions. Can I assume that you do not categorize the results of your ''discernments'' into groups of good or bad but that, you instead label thoughts as ''ones which cause suffering'' and ''ones which do not cause suffering''?????

OK one more thing. You mention ''your problem''. I don't know if you were talking to Pegasus or Tsukimoto or another board poster but I have my own thoughts on that. No one has a problem. Tsukimoto doesn't have a problem and neither does Pegasus. They, as well as myself and other posters have ''identified'' a problem. The ''problem'' is that groups of people have tried to impose ''discerning conclusions'' about the events of life on us...and they base those deductions and conclusions on the ''thoughts'' of others. There is no problem with the ''thoughts'' or ''judgments'' of any poster on this board.
As for obsessing...I say go for it. Each and every modern day covenience that we enjoy is the result of someone's ''obsessive'' thinking. Of course the ''obsessive'' thoughts were not mindless repetitions.Airplanes were nott invented by people who constantly chanted ''I wish to fly''.... Inventors ''obsessively'' try to determine what works(is good) and what doesn't(is bad). I for one am grateful to scientists who, after obsessively considering a thing, decided on which amount of penacillin works(is good), and which amount of penacillin kills the patient or doesn't work(is bad).
I am equally gratefully to posters on this board who are creating and considering and inventing different ways to deal with brain washing.

Tsukimoto mentioned that chanting before an interview really did help...etc.
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I was told once to keep chanting ''they need me...I don't need them'' when I took a job as a bar maid and...I was completely in the dark...unqualified... very young....terrified and had already broken a bunch of glasses. All through the night I kept repeating ''they need me...etc...''. It literally worked like a charm. My family was also very negative towards me and that was the source of my lack of self confidence. The chant did two things. It gave me confidence. It also gave me no time to recall the toxic brainwashing of my parents. So I know exactly what Anticult and Tsukimoto mean. Some chants really can help to keep the mind from recalling some of the garbage we've been taught. When we need to focus on something like a job interview or a new task....a quick chant to help dismiss the memories of hurtful things we've been told.....yeh...it works.