'sadhu-sanga', 'sadhu-sanga' sarva-sastre kaya
lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi haya

"The verdict of all revealed scriptures is that by even a moment's association with a pure devotee, one can attain all success."

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya Lila 22.54

--

Too bad this doesn't exist in ISKCON (not for 26 years anyway) :(

Hi Everyone My name is Prasadam das and I have been involved in Iskcon since 1970 and I have been through many things as a devotee. I must admit that the positive and healthly aspects of Iskcon far out weigh the negative.

I have a lot of friends who were involved in Iskcon back in the 70's many left because of politics and others because of their own attachments. Yes it was very fanatical back when I joined. We really didn't know any better although some people certainly took advantage of their positions and abused their power.

The practice of Krishna consciousness certainly transcends Iskcon and ultimately is something experienced internally between the devotee and the Lord. Are there any pure devotees in Iskcon? I know quite a few folks who are very pure, very loving and from my experience VERY God realized. Many are married, many are women and many are very genuinely involved in wanting to improve their lives through the practice of bhakti. I know people who have been hurt by the negative aspects of what happened in the organization. What matters most is that we improve ourselves and learn to Love God. Critical Thinking is very very important and being a mindless zombie is really not what being a devotee is about. Vaishnavism is not Iskcon and certainly Iskcon as I have seen it has matured greatly over the last few decades.

I think that this forum is excellent as it helps people learn more about alternative forms of spirituality and I am in complete agreement that the abuse that takes place in many spiritual groups (including what has taken place in Iskcon) is a bad thing. However, Spiritual Growth and Love of God is very, very important and I would encourage those of you on this forum to genuinely develop your spirituality. Associate with God loving folks and discover your identity as eternal soul. The external religious system or path is not really what is important as much as the process the progress that you make.
A moment with a sincere seeker of God ( and not a mindless cult member) will transform your life. The proof is in the pudding! Hare Krishna!

Prasadam Das:

It is interesting that suddenly there is an interest expressed by ISKCON devotees concerning this message board.

Please understand that the purpose of this board is not really to help "people learn more about alternative forms of spirituality."

In fact the rules prohibit proselytizing.

The purpose of the board is to discuss controversial groups and movements, some that have been called "cults," such as ISKCON.

You have chosen to post on a section that is specifically about "recovery" from such groups. Though it seems that this is not your issue.

But thank you for acknowledging that many people have left ISKCON and that it can be "very fanatical."

However, assigning blame regarding members leaving ISKCON to "politics and... attachments" sounds a bit like victim bashing or at best cult apology.

Is that your purpose for posting here?

You say that "the positive...outweigh the negative" at ISKCON, which again sounds like an apology.

ISKCON has a very serious criminal history and one of its most prominent leaders was sent to prison.

Note the following article:

[www.culteducation.com]

ISKCON had also admitted to gross child abuse. And though it claims to have addressed this issue, the children victimized at ISKCON don't seem to agree with that assessment.

Note the following articles:

[www.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]

Historically, when cult groups have been caught and/or exposed regarding their bad conduct they typically claim to have subsequently changed.

But has ISKCON really changed?

Nori Muster, a former ISKCON devotee and noted author, doesn't think so. Please read her article linked below.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Specifically, what meaningful leadership changes have been made at ISKCON?

Bishops have stepped down amidst the scandals that have recently rocked the Roman Catholic Church.

What officials at ISKOCON have stepped down?

Instead some ISKCON reformers have been removed.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Hindus also have raised serious questions about ISKCON's teachings.

See the following links:

[www.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]

And why does the organization persists in its effort to solicit in airports, despite repeated court rulings?

See [www.culteducation.com]

I continue to receive complaints about ISKCON, as recently as this year, from families and former members.

As you say, "The abuse that takes place in many spiritual groups (including what has taken place in Iskcon) is a bad thing."

Please understand that the complaints I have received about ISKCON are not about its "spirituality," but about the behavior of "mindless cult member" and/or leaders at ISKCON.

As you say, "The proof is in the pudding!"

And given ISKCON's sordid history of destructive behavior I would not recommend it as an "external religious system or path" to anyone under any circumstances.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I want to make it clear that I am not in complete disagreement with what you are saying as it most certainly is true. When I wrote that many devotees who left Iskcon did so left as a result of politics did so due to politics or attachments I did not mean that to sound as though I were placing on blame on them. I formally left the ashram back in 1981 due to the politics of the current situation. Quite frankly I had personal issues with the local temple president and others who were running things. I know many friends who left around that time for similar reasons. I saw a lot of people involve themselves iin leadership positions for what I felt were wrong reasons and as is history many abused that power. Some of my friends also left because quite frankly they just were not cut out for ashram life. Not everyone is meant to be a monk which at the time the attitude in the 70's was very zealous. I was pretty fanatical myself and I can think of a lot of other devotees I knew at the time who were even more fanatical than me. One of my best friends who i am still very close with left because he wanted to pursue a career in dance. He had been trained in classical ballet since he had been a child and really had strong desires to pursue this art form. Back in 1979 it would not have been acceptable for him to pursue this goal so he chose to leave. I must add that he although he left living in the ashram he has remained favorable to the movement and still practices to some extent. In my own experience in the present Iskcon my friend would not have had the same sort of difficulties as it is completely acceptable in the present Iskcon for devotees to live outside and pursue whatever their calling in life might be. The idea in the philosophy is to dovetail it for Krishna.

I know in my own experience that being completely extreme and fanatical does not work as it is artifical and not natural. I can relate to the young lady who started this post as I was a lot like her in my approach to the practice and went through similar experiences. I had another friend who left the movement due to this drug addiction. If he had stayed in it would have helped him. He died of an overdose as he totally refused to get involved with any treatment programs that could have saved his life. He was a great guy and being in the ashram actually helped him control his addiction.

In my own experience Iskcon has changed. I know that there are some who would disagree but I can only relate my personal experiences. I know a lot of the leadership personally and while some of them did some really stupid things twenty or more years ago they have matured greatly in their old age. Have you met any of them?

I honestly do appreciate what you are doing with this message board as being in a high pressure religious group can mess a person up big time and this has certainly been the case for some people who have left Iskcon. Recovery and healing is very very important and I am mainly posting as I think that my own experiences might help others. I also strongly believe in education and open mindedness and I think that the idea that Iskcon is a terrible cult does not accurately represent the facts of the matter. Things are not black and white and the spirituality is what matters. In my own quest for self discovery the practice of Krishna Consciousness has helped me and continues to help me and the proof most certainly is in the pudding. Anyway, I am posting as a friend and certainly in no way mean to be disrespectful as I feel others might learn from my own experiences. Thank you so much for providing this opportunity to share.

Maybe I am apologizing a bit for what has taking place and please forgive me if I sound preachy I just want to encourage people in their self growth and I feel that anytype of recovery should include healthly spirituality. I personally have experienced in Iskcon that things have changed for the better.

Prasadam Das:

Would you please respond to the points raised by Nori Muster?

Given the history of abuse you have acknowledged, what specific democratic reforms have been implemented within ISKCON to avoid power being abused by its leaders?

Which of the top gurus Nori cites, other than Kirtananda who went to prison, were removed since the ISKCON founder's death?

What checks and balances, specifically exist at ISKCON now constitutionally, which officially mandates meaningful accountability to the general membership?

How do regular members know where the money goes and how ISKCON leaders handle it?

Is there an independently audited financial statement that reflects all assets and any compensation paid to ISKCON's leaders and staff? Is such a statement filed and/or published? And is it then distributed annually to the general membership?

Why does ISKCON persist with its legal actions regarding solicitation at airports such as LAX?

Since you have been in ISKCON for more than 30 years hopefully you can answer these questions to clarify whatever meaningful changes have been implemented at ISKCON, other than changes made in the residential ashram system you have mentioned.

[www.flameout.org]

Checks and balances are really important in any organization. While I do not know Nori well I have friends who do. Her book about her experiences as a devotee is excellent and I highly recommend to anyone interested in understanding the problems experienced in the movement. Nori is the type of devotee that I would like to see more of as she sincerely wanted to change things for the better within the organization but met a lot of resistance from the more conservative elements within the leadership. I am actually quite conservative myself but I do recognize the need for reform when you have corruption taking place. Besides Keith Ham several other gurus were removed from their positions for various reasons. Even as recently as 1998 one of the original eleven gurus appointed by our founder Prabhupada was removed due to problems he was experiencing on a personal level. There are checks and balances within Iskcon.

In the past the leadership had absolute authority which contributed to a lot of the abuse that took place. In my local temple the temple leaders are appointed by a board composed of members of the local congregation and our Governing Body Commissoner. The leadership is accountable to the congregation and if there are problems the situation is mediated and appropiately taken care of. The temple finances are audited by an independent firm and are made available to the members of the congregation. The money expenses/income are posted monthly in a public area.

The us and them mentality that would have existed back in the early days is certainly no longer present nor is the fanaticism. The local temple president is completely against this type of sectarian mentality and discourages it among devotees young and old. I think that if you actually took the chance to get to know some of us you might have a different perception of the movement. HOW MANY PRACTICING HARE KRISHNAS DO YOU ACTUALLY KNOW? How many members of our congregations do you know? It is pretty easy to focus on problems that we have experienced . What about the good things that have taken place as a result of Iskcon? Have you met any of the current men and women involved in running the organization? If not WHY NOT? and would you like to? ?????? I am certainly open to any and all criticism and I would like to see more open mindedness and tolerance. If you have any further questions or if I can help in anyway please feel free to ask. I would prefer though that we focus on that which is constructive and promotes tolerance and understanding as that is what is most important not ignorance of the complete picture.

Prasadam Das:

You say, "Several other gurus were removed...[this included] one of the original eleven gurus appointed by our founder Prabhupada."

What are the names of the gurus that have been removed?

Do you mean to say that 10 of the 11 gurus "appointed" are still intact despite the fanaticism, sexual abuse and criminal conduct that took place under their supervision?

Kirtananda (Keith Ham) was "removed" by law enforcement, convicted of crimes and sent to prison. As I recall, the other gurus repeatedly and publicly defended this man before his arrest, despite very serious and public complaints about his conduct.

How were those gurus held accountable after Ham's arrest?

You say, "Local temple leaders are appointed by a board composed of members of the local congregation."

How is that board formed? Is this done through a general election that includes all temple members in a democratic process? What is the nomination process for board members? Please explain how this is set up constitutionally through set bylaws.

You say, "If there are problems the situation is mediated and appropriately taken care of."

What do you mean by "mediated"? How is this mediation specifically "taken care of"? Please be more specific.

What are the specific constitutional bylaws and procedures provided for mediation?

How can an individual member hold leaders accountable through what mediation process provided by your bylaws?

Please cite the specific bylaws and the exact process to address any member's grievances.

You say, "Finances are audited by an independent firm and are made available."

What is the name of the accounting firm that audits ISKCON?

Is there an audited financial statement that is published?

Is this audited statement distributed to every member annually?

Is there a published audited financial statement that is available to the general public?

Is this done for ISKCON and/or each temple individually?

Is it required by the ISKCON bylaws that this be done annually, published and distributed?

Your answers seem rather vague and not very specific.

Also, you didn't answer the question regarding airport solicitations. When will ISKCON stop its legal action in the courts?

Also, when will ISKCON settle the lawsuit filed against it by children abused through the organization?

The Catholic Church made settlements under similar circumstances, why hasn't ISKCON?

Yes, I have met ISKCON members and leaders.

Quote

Even as recently as 1998 one of the original eleven gurus appointed by our founder Prabhupada was removed due to problems he was experiencing on a personal level.

Sadly, this is what became of the ISKCON funds entrusted to Harikesh Swami (Robert Campagnola); the funds received by both people who bought books from ISKCON devotees, and ISKCON devotees themselves:

[img:27c54bbc5e]http://www.french-property.com/properties/classifieds/prop-images/33_1.jpg[/img:27c54bbc5e]

[www.french-property.com]

This doesn't even include the US$1 million taken from the European BBT by Brajanath das before he joined Narayan Maharaj.

Hopefully funds will be better taken care of in the future.

Read Nori Muster's book for the full story about the gurus. Of the original 11 only two are actively working within Iskcon and one is semi-retired due to physical health problems. The history is in Nori's book and she describes the situation pretty well. In terms of mediation or dispute resolution it all depends upon the individual situation. Sorry if this sounds vague. An excellent web site (supportive of Iskcon, but also critical) is [www.chakra.org] it is run by devotees but welcomes contributions from anyone.

Please bring the issues that you raise in the form of an article to be put online there. I really don't think that you will have a problem getting it accepted on line providing you are not too heavy in your approach. Just raise facts, your specific concerns and if you might your suggestions for improvement. While there might be some disagreement from individuals I think that as a whole your comments and intelligent imput as a third party would be appreciated. I am NOT a liberal Hare Krishna but I certainly am into seeing our movement improve its image by correcting things that have been done wrong or could be done better. I am really not into the politics of Iskcon and I have always been turned off by people who abuse power or hurt others. You clearly have a LOT to offer and I would like to see you reach more people as I think that Iskcon as well as people in general would benefit.

Interesting that you should mention the Catholic church. A good friend of mine who is Catholic and also a Hare Krishna devotee works for the Catholic church in the States. Recently his boss, a Bishop resigned. My friend and other employees was told that it was due to health concerns. Three hours later they find out that he was accused by several men of having sexually abusing them as youths. My friend felt totally BETRAYED and lied to. He is aware of the same type of crap that has gone on in Iskcon and was really disgusted as he has to work for these people. The Catholic church of course is an organization.and composed of all sorts of individuals but it is pretty clear that the churches handling of things could have been a lot better. Iskcon has the same type of problems and has made the same type of mistakes. Anyway, Please consider yourself a friend of the movement and don't be shy about offering your views, even if they are rejected by those who are too conservative and afraid of change. I have seen Iskcon change for the better over the years and I hope that it continues as it has so much to offer the world in terms of knowlege and spiritual insight. Please check out the Chakra web site or similar devotee forums and contribute as knowlege wasted is not a good thing. Thanks for listening and take really good care of yourself. I would love to see you sit down and chat with some of the leaders in Iskcon as I think that you would have a lot more in common with them then you might think.