I have to funnel the anger, contempt and disgust I have for the AR organization in a healthier direction.

Thanks for the direction, Oz.

Hi Aurora, there is so much to say about this. Too much.
I can only tell you a little what works for me, and i am always trying to learn more...

- those Philosophical methods mentioned.
- next is CBT. Writing out those specific Thoughts, and then vigorously Disputing them, and coming up with more healthy thoughts. Its explained in books like...

"The Feeling Good Handbook" by David Burns
Mind Over Mood" by Greenberger/Padesky.

But each person is very different.
Another person might benefit from some other type of therapy, or studying high-pressure sales, or by reading anti-cult books, or writing things down, etc.
You could even use NLP to overcome the abuse of NLP!

Trust your own gut, and try some different things, and see what clicks for you.
Maybe the Philosophical stuff works for you, but for others they might want something more personal and emotional, or vice versa?
Trust your own thinking and intuition.

One question though.
Have you been WANTING to go to his seminars?
Or WANTING to buy more programs, etc?
I am just curious...

Its a long road to seperate the wheat from the propaganda.
Patience is a virtue.

Coz

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Aurora
Coz and others,

I am in the early stages of re-programming myself back to a more independent state of mind and was wondering how one goes about losing the mind control jargon? (for me it's TonyTalk).

While I definitely quote AR(Anthony Robbins) less- I suspect his jargon has been imprinted in my routine vocabulary and hence my routine thought processes :oops:

Thankfully I was not fully indoctrinated and bankrupted - but I still need to re-discover my true self again. I hope I am making sense enough for readers to understand my inquiry.

Any advice or references?

I have wanted to go to UPW only to see what it is all about---I have ellicited many opinions on it and have heard many mixed reviews... I would like to have an outline of its curriculum but apparently that does not exist or it will not be made public. I have absolutely no fear of firewalking (although I do have some other phobias that are alive and well).

I abhor hard sell marketing tactics and I hear that goes on at UPW ad nauseum. UPW seems like it may be about 3 hours of "core curriculum" and the rest of the 4 day weekend- sales pitches and manipulations. I would never watch a TV program for 100 hours if I was aware 90+ hours of it was commercials.

Oh.... but I have wanted to go and even imagined crewing at future events (WOW - I can go for free if approved!) I have made some connections with very genuine (and skeptical) AR forum members and would like to meet some of those people at an event.

I imagine I may have my own unique version of a psychotic episode during or after a Tony seminar---not because of being programmed but due to the anger inside me (anger related to the awareness of the unconscious manipulations being used on participants) needing an appropriate outlet.

Mind you I think UPW has some beneficial content but suspect it is outweighed by all the hype and sales pitches. And even with a free ticket (opposed to paying $700 or more) - I am seeing less and less any real benefit from attending. Especially in light of the LGAT effects I am familarizing myself with.

I had started ToYL recently but that is on hold indefinitely (its a borrowed copy). Now I have a strong desire to learn more about unconscious influence and covert sales techniques---not because I have something to sell- but because I want to know on a conscious level what we all are faced with. And with a comprehensive understanding of it- I would like to educate others about it in layman's terms---so that they are more able think freely before they decide to subscribe (aka informed consent)

I have a graduate degree in a counselling field - so perhaps that is why I desire to be a strong advocate and educator.

On a personal note, I should probably take up karate or kickboxing to have an outlet for some of this anger and contempt I am feeling.

I have been a "passive participant" in several cult-like groups primarily during my comparative religious studies about a decade ago. (eg., Eckankar, protestant radical groups, mystical christian orders/secret societies, Wicca - just to name a few). I knew with them "going in" I had no plans on truly joining as I have always been a skeptic when it came to any organized religion.

Actually this is no joke but I became intrigued with Tony Robbins work shortly after having a dream where he was vividly present. I thought it was a vision or a "sign" (being open to new age ideas) but perhaps it was some mystical application of "unconscious influence". Maybe thats a stretch...maybe not.

Its interesting to me how I was nearly blind sided by AR and associates. They were not pushing any of the "usual Gods" out there and I did not think them a religious group and perhaps let down my skeptical guard a bit. I had barely dabbled in NLP in my graduate studies as it was not a popular field and the professors barely mentioned it in the course work. AR rekindled an interest in it for me and that is how I was pulled into it. I connected with many on that forum pretty quickly. Their motives seemed benign and the friendliness seemed genuine. Some forum members were quick to contact me via PM or email to try and sell me various health and self help products (not all affliated with AR). I pretty much ignored them or asked for answers to tough questions or free samples. Other members closer to my homeland expressed an interest in meeting in person. I have rang a few and met a few in person and for the most part it was pleasant and non-eventful. On a few occasions though I got a sense that the person was trying to manipulate me with NLP techniques. It was subtle at times and obvious at other times... but I got out my emotional armor and would not allow any penetration. It was exhausting emotionally though. This is when I first suspected something more sinister was associated with AR. I started to explore this lesser known side of AR and came upon some contraversial data. I then happened upon this forum. After reading some here and elsewhere- that is when the smoke screen cleared for me.

Obviously some kind and decent people frequent the AR seminars and forum. Teasing them out from the "snakes in the grass" can be challenging at times especially with the exceptionally savvy salespeople tip toeing around.

I still have contact with a good number of those on the forum...but my ability to trust is diminished. Its almost like I need to start over with them now that my mind is clearer. Start with a blank slate again...

Sorry for my long winded "brief" account :wink:

Its incredibly difficult to sort the baby from the bathwater.
Even TOYL, or other things, might have some genuine content in them that is useful. But the problem is sorting the useful content, from the manipulation. Its extremely difficult, and might be close to impossible. They are all interwoven together.

Going to UPW (Unleash The Power Within) is quite "dangerous".
Why?
This is the first "indoctrination" seminar he has been doing for over 20 years, so he has had lots of time to fine-tune it. In my view, its meant to "prospect" the audience. Sort the "fatted calves" from the "broke turkeys". The place is CRAWLING with super-salespeople.
Obviously people have to come to their own determinations, but IF I personally go to any more events like this, I am doing it on my terms. I would sit near the back, where there is some open space. And don't participate too much, don't bring your credit cards, and don't buy or sign anything there.
Easier said than done though, as they have all sorts of "special deals", and lots of social pressure.

The problem here is the social pressure. If you don't "throw yourself into it", people give you are real hard time, with all of the hugging, and group activities, and massaging strangers backs, etc.

Its amazingly difficult to sort what useful "content" there might be in these seminars, from the manipulation of the seminar itself.
Only a very small part of the seminar is content. Its not a "a speech". Its an LGAT Thought Reform "brainwashing" session.

And you don't escape this from being on the CREW! Talk about social pressure! Could you even imagine expressing doubts as part of the CREW? You would be socially ostracized.

If Robbins came to my city, I would most likely go see him again, but I would sit near the back, mime along a bit so as not to create a fuss, and just WATCH what he is doing to people. Just to learn. Then I would get a refund by leaving at the time written on the ticket, usually before the end. (check the specifics).

Is this smart?
Or does he still have a hold on me after all these years?
Both. Even after all these years, that stuff is still in my brain.
Its very powerful, some parts are permanently changed.
That is his intent.

Is going back into the Lions Den destructive, or helpful?
I don't know.
Its probably best to just leave Robbins behind, and find other ways of giving oneself the same thing.
Its very tough to sort legitimate psychological knowledge, from the hype.
But I do think it is possible.

Coz

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Aurora
I have wanted to go to UPW only to see what it is all about---I have ellicited many opinions on it and have heard many mixed reviews... I would like to have an outline of its curriculum but apparently that does not exist or it will not be made public.


Oh.... but I have wanted to go and even imagined crewing at future events (WOW - I can go for free if approved!) I have made some connections with very genuine (and skeptical) AR forum members and would like to meet some of those people at an event.

Mind you I think UPW has some beneficial content but suspect it is outweighed by all the hype and sales pitches. And even with a free ticket (opposed to paying $700 or more) - I am seeing less and less any real benefit from attending. Especially in light of the LGAT effects I am familarizing myself with.

quote]

You may have seen one of his infomercials, or part of it. Those infomercials are designed to get inside you like that. Its a form of Trance induction, nothing mystical at all.

Also, I have found that this type of LGAT attracts both Doves and Hawks. (Sheep and Wolves).
The Doves are genuine, nice, decent folk, who just buy into the salespitch, that its all about personal development, and saving the world, etc. They are the ones who get "fleeced".

The Hawks/Wolves see what's going on pretty fast, and they LOVE Tony, as they can learn what he is doing, and do it to other people, and increase their sales, and things of that nature.

So again, its very hard to sort the Doves from the Hawks. Some Doves are actually Hawks underneath. Some are just Doves.
If you were a Hawk you would not be having this discussion. You might think, "that's just the way the world is". "If they are so dumb, they deserve to get fleeced", etc.

Everyone of my old "Robbins buddies" has walked away from him, and frankly hate his guts. (they were all Hawks acting like Doves, but they got Hawked by the biggest Hawk of them all). To even bring up his name would spoil an entire dinner.

So its hard to sort genuine friendship from manipulative "user" false friendship.
Robbins #1 Sales technique is "MAKE THEM FEEL LIKE YOUR BEST FRIEND".
See the paradox, and the seductiveness?

Obviously, don't listen to me, but these are just my viewpoints, and some may be inaccurate.

But "friendship" is Robbins #1 sales tool.
Make your prospects feel like your close friends.
Good salespeople love his stuff, as it works.
But you have to be pretty cold-blooded. Ya gotta be a hardcore Hawk to make it work.
Again, very tough to sort the wheat from the chaff, the hawks from the doves, the baby from the bathwater.

Coz

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Aurora

Actually this is no joke but I became intrigued with Tony Robbins work shortly after having a dream where he was vividly present. I thought it was a vision or a "sign" (being open to new age ideas) but perhaps it was some mystical application of "unconscious influence". Maybe thats a stretch...maybe not.

I connected with many on that forum pretty quickly. Their motives seemed benign and the friendliness seemed genuine. Some forum members were quick to contact me via PM or email to try and sell me various health and self help products (not all affliated with AR).

Obviously some kind and decent people frequent the AR seminars and forum. Teasing them out from the "snakes in the grass" can be challenging at times especially with the exceptionally savvy salespeople tip toeing around.

Quote

Aurora - I congratulate you on your honesty in answering COz's question:

"Have you been WANTING to go to his seminars?
Or WANTING to buy more programs, etc?"

I thank Coz for asking this question too. it has raised some questions for me.

From an emotional perspective, (and I am cringing as I write this), I wished that my LGAT was not a con. While it deeply sadens me to witness what it did to my life and what Landmark did to my girlfriend and has and is doing to other people I know, I still have a longing for "transformation". I am talking about my feelings, not my interlect. From a rational point of view, I know first hand that these LGATs and cultic groups are dangerous - emotionally, spritually, interlectually and psychologically. A person is never really quite the same after going through the process. But the emotional tie, though it be 13 years ago, is still there.

In my case, I put it down to the love bombing and the serotonin high from the emotive transformation, (not interlectual or spiritual transformation). This feeling was like no other I have felt. I imagine it is like the high from Heroin. It is to be avoided at all costs.

I am not stating or alluding to the idea that I am having an existential crisis. I have a very strong traditional faith but still, I have this emotional tie.

It is an emotional addiction and I have been sober since 1993.

Oz

I know this may sound like over-simplistic comparison... but I feel hurt and betrayed. I really would like this all not to be a con too. But it is. It like that feeling you get when it really "sunk in" - there is no Santa Claus. And you keep asking yourself why did they do that to me and to everyone? What was the purpose? Its a strange analogy maybe but why did my parents or my social group perpetuate the Santa Claus lie? Perhaps because they were conditioned to do so. And the root of the matter in that lie? Retail greed/ need for profits.

In as much as I would like to return to the innocence and purity (that ignorance is bliss feeling) - I know I can never return there again.

Although I am comfortable with my own identity- I can't help but continue to long for that emotional "transformation" too. I didn't see it as an emotional addiction before....but maybe it is.

Aurora - It is the lying that hurts. It is the secretiveness that hurts too.

For me, it first came in my LGAT participation. I recall a journalist telling me how he was invited by the leader of my LGAT, Robert Kiyosaki - "Money and You", to do a story on him. It was 1am on Sunday morning when groups of 5 were playing the "blocks game", trying to communicate the essence of words like "Integrity" through the use of childrens' building blocks. This is the point in my LGAT process where either participants had psychoitic breaks or experienced the emotional high "transformation" from abnormal serotonin production caused by lack of sleep and cognitive confusion. The discourse between the journalist and Kiyosaki went something like this:

[b:7cc8b4030a]Journalist:[/b:7cc8b4030a] "What is happening now?"
[b:7cc8b4030a]Kiyosaki:[/b:7cc8b4030a] "I'd expect them to "pop" soon. [b:7cc8b4030a]Tomorrow their brains will be like mush and I will be able to make them believe in anything."[/b:7cc8b4030a][/color:7cc8b4030a] :twisted:

The Journalist returned with a film crew for the next 3 day LGAT, filmed the story aired it in a "4 Corners" presentation and Kiyosaki's LGAT was destroyed in Australia back in late 1993.
[board.culteducation.com]


(As a passing note: witnessing to the destruction of my LGAT through the powers of the media is why I am such a firm supporter of the future 60 Minutes Story on Landmark Education: [board.culteducation.com] )


My second round of LGAT deception came in another form when my ex-girlfriend entered Landmark which trained her in the art of seduction, secretiveness and profound lying.

I look at the whole 13 years like this: I can't change the past but I may be able to harness what I have experienced and learned to help others. In other words, change what was essentially a negative experience into a positive outcome. It still hurts though... :(

Like you, I am also comfortable with my own identity. This realisation provides a firm foundation on which to progress in the healing process.

I also now understand I have an emotional addiction to this transformation stuff but I will never fall to it again. My knowlege of the deception will not let me. I am no longer in denial. I am now FREE. :)

Aurora - you are also FREE :)

Oz

What I have done, and am doing, is to take the Emotional-Psychological needs that they were exploiting in me for profit, and find [i:83bb822a17]other ways to fulfill them[/i:83bb822a17].

In my view, we can still grow Intellectually, and still have Emotional development, works towards "success" as we define it, etc.

In REBT, Ellis said, "get more of what you want, and less of what you don't want".

Personally, I use CBT to deal with my emotional issues, and i have found it works great for me, usually, but not all of the time. And that's fine. No need for Emotional Perfectionism, which is a sick con-job.

So I think we can still be involved with "personal development" and personal growth, and even Self-Actualization perhaps, but just do it in a way that is more healthy, and not linked with an LGAT cult, or Guru who is messing with our minds?
For me, CBT and REBT, when linked with the Philosophy and theory behind it, which is then linked to REAL philosophy, and philosophy of science, as well as Aesthetics and Creativity, provides enormous opportunity for excitement and growth.
I can still study "Emotional Intelligence", and I can still use the many dozens of powerful techniques in CBT, to manage my Thoughts, Emotions, Behaviors, and even transform some of my Core Beliefs.

So i could be wrong here, but I am fulfilling those impulses in other, more healthy ways, that are not part of a LGAT cult.
I can even continue to study Robbins, to learn more about these techniques, and Sales techniques, so i can defend myself in that world out there. :wink:

Anyway, that is sorta where i am right now.
Maybe I am wrong, and should just be more involved in self-acceptance, instead of the self-hating which can be behind "personal development".

But USA, Unconditional Self Acceptance is one of the pillars of REBT, so even that is included.

Maybe i am like a smoker, who has replaced smoking with chewing gum, i don't know. But replacing smoking with jogging might be obsessive, but its still better than smoking.

to be continued....

Coz

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Aurora

Although I am comfortable with my own identity- I can't help but continue to long for that emotional "transformation" too. I didn't see it as an emotional addiction before....but maybe it is.