Another idea I am starting to look at right now, is what is being called "Positive Psychology", which was created by Dr. Martin Seligman.
He has a book out called "Authentic Happiness" and a website.
[www.authentichappiness.org]

The difference I personally see in this, and I am open to criticism on this, is that this is being done using the scientific method.
[www.positivepsychology.org]

Seligman is a legit psychologist, who is trying to get mainstream psychological science to look beyond pathology, and look at mental health, not just mental illness.

Now of course, ALREADY, some sleazy self-help salesman are perverting these ideas, and using them for their own advantage.
But at this point, I consider what Seligman and other psychologists are doing here to be of real value.
They are trying to do proper studies, and actual scientific research, and not just some guy making stuff up, and then selling it with persuasion.

I am only just beginning with this, but what I have seen so far, I like.

Coz

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This is the point in my LGAT process where either participants had psychotic breaks or experienced the emotional high "transformation" from abnormal serotonin production caused by lack of sleep and cognitive confusion.

I have been thinking about this "emotional high" concept as an orgasm of sorts. It is systemic and short lived. For instance, when I listen to a good piece of music I often refer to its effect as an "ear-gasm"- its not a sexual thing- as much an intense (however transient) feeling of elation - perhaps a seratonin or endorphin rush if we want to be clinical/scientific about it.

My first thought is there is nothing wrong or unhealthy about wanting or enjoying these "emotional orgasms"- but the mode in which one acquires it has to be looked at carefully. The mode/method can be dangerous or expensive (eg. cocaine and LGATs). Plus you have to keep the "need" in check so that it does not become an addiction or compulsion that impedes your ability to function in society.

I am unsure what a healthy way is to achieve this though. Perhaps meditating on a mantra...sort of a self induced trance? Is that really safe though?

Maybe I am just attempting to rationalize the continuance of an addiction here. I don't know.

Hi Aurora, I am not sure I know exactly what you are talking about, but I will take a stab at it.

Are you talking about feeling "excitement", or "ecstasy'?

To get a "high", vigorous physical activity can give you this.
Also, just "doing something different" can do it as well.
This may be why people go rock climbing, mountain climbing, and adventurous physical things of that nature.

For me, I enjoy going into DEEP nature, and that gives me a great feeling as well.

So one can set out and do specific EXTERNAL activities, that can trigger these feelings.

As far as doing things in an "intra-personal" way, I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Using Visualization, and creating internal dialogue, you can get yourself to feel almost any feeling you want. For example, you can make yourself feel "totally loved" at almost any time, by learning to do what's called "self-soothing". Self-soothing is a very important psychological skill to learn. (it might be one of the most important things a person can learn in life).
Also, its possible to learn how to make yourself "feel happy" by modifying your Cognitions, and the Images in your mind.

Now of course, all of these things can be taken to extremes, and unless you are a professional monk, you are not going to "feel happy" 24/7.
But we don't need anything outside of ourselves to learn how to modify our own feelings.
This is what CBT and REBT is all about.

Actually, its most important to learn how to modify our own feelings ourselves. Because, is it possible to go and take an adventure vacation, yet to be miserable? Sure.
This is what I love about CBT and REBT.
It gives me tested tools to modify my own emotions.
Does it work 100% of the time perfectly? No.
Does it work most of the time? Yes.
Does it solve all of life’s problems? No.
Does it solve some problems? Yes.

Again, I might have misinterpreted what you have said.
Are you looking to create these feelings once in a while for yourself, or on a daily basis?
Are you talking about something healthy, or are you talking about Mania? [www.psychologynet.org]

After all, I think why people gamble, do drugs, and do "firewalking" is to get that manic high, and that is not a healthy thing, in my view.

Coz

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Aurora

I have been thinking about this "emotional high" concept as an orgasm of sorts. It is systemic and short lived. For instance, when I listen to a good piece of music I often refer to its effect as an "ear-gasm"- its not a sexual thing- as much an intense (however transient) feeling of elation - perhaps a seratonin or endorphin rush if we want to be clinical/scientific about it.

My first thought is there is nothing wrong or unhealthy about wanting or enjoying these "emotional orgasms"- but the mode in which one acquires it has to be looked at carefully. The mode/method can be dangerous or expensive (eg. cocaine and LGATs). Plus you have to keep the "need" in check so that it does not become an addiction or compulsion that impedes your ability to function in society.

I am unsure what a healthy way is to achieve this though. Perhaps meditating on a mantra...sort of a self induced trance? Is that really safe though?

Maybe I am just attempting to rationalize the continuance of an addiction here. I don't know.

One of the "alternative" paths I am exploring more fully is Buddhism. Currently, I am beginning to go thru Dan Millman's [u:525ed7d4ef]Everyday Enlightenment[/u:525ed7d4ef] (the 12 gateways to personal growth).

What a refreshing comment he makes at the beginning of the book:
"Take what is useful and discard the rest. [b:525ed7d4ef]Read with healthy skepticism.[/b:525ed7d4ef] Test these ideas against your own experience. My interest is not that you trust me, but that you trust yourself and the process of your life unfolding."

He offers a few seminars but I do not imagine them to be in LGAT format.

This forum is not the place to promote any author but his work is one of my focuses along the journey of recovery/rediscovering myself.

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Are you talking about something healthy, or are you talking about Mania?

I think a distinction can be made between the two. And I also believe someone can get a natural high from an LGAT experience as well as some may suffer a manic episode from that same LGAT.

Manic episodes are by definition of a duration at least a week and typically necessitate either hospitalization/psychotherapy, and make it impossible for the person to function in society as they had prior to the episode. (That is just some DSM stuff)

I have known people who have attended LGATs (AR seminars) and they had no manic episode in the clinical sense and have not been "swallowed alive" financially or psychologically by the LGAT facilitator. The LGAT gave them a huge boost emotionally and some sustain it for a long while.

Obviously some people are more vulnerable than others. In a nutshell, I do believe there can be totally positive experiences from attending an LGAT---but like corboy has said---it a matter of informed consent. One should know of the techniques being used at LGATs so as to be prepared.

And of course---there is always some risk going in because you never know your vulnerablities until they are unsurfaced.

Just to be clear, I am not talking about a formal, technical "manic episode", which is an arbitrary line anyway. I am talking about moving in that direction towards "manai" along a continuum.

And boy, do i disagree with some of what you have said here.
Certain people are VERY suggestible, and they can really be taken for a ride.
Sure there are people who go to these seminars and don't really feel much of anything. Some people even hate them and leave early. Some are just bored.
But I have not been talking about those people.

Also, when people are getting into trouble with a Guru, they do NOT KNOW IT, by definition. They are generally totally unaware of what is happening, and think everything is fine, or even GREAT!
Only years later do they figure it out.

Also, there is what is called ERBN and LRBN.
Emotional Reasons To Buy Now and Logical Reasons To Buy Now.

People BUY for an emotional reason, and then rationalize it after to themselves, by trying to figure out what were the "benefits" of what they did.

Most people have no idea of what is happening to them, and part of the programming is to "feel good" about what they are doing as they are doing it, and to "feel good" after they have done it. that's all part of the programming.
Only many years later does this stuff sort itself out.
Sometimes more than 10 years later.

Coz

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Aurora

I have known people who have attended LGATs (AR seminars) and they had no manic episode in the clinical sense and have not been "swallowed alive" financially or psychologically by the LGAT facilitator. The LGAT gave them a huge boost emotionally and some sustain it for a long while.

I do believe there can be totally positive experiences from attending an LGAT---but like corboy has said---it a matter of informed consent. One should know of the techniques being used at LGATs so as to be prepared.

It's fantastic to have this forum here. When I left the TM cult, there was not support. It's been a good process. After 16 yrs though, am only now realizing how much of my inner paradigm is still vestigil from the cult, and/or because of constant reinforcement as my parents still involved.

What helped me most was jumping into life elsewhere, moving away and just trying all new. I left the TM Movement at age 30, after having been raised in "The Movement" and married and had 3 kids while living in TM-Mecca (fairfield, Iowa). That was 16 yrs ago.

I attended college, and developed my career, volunteer activities, exercise, outdoor activities. The exercise and outdoor activities provided the exercise 'high' to replace the TM twice daily. I didn't know about exit counseling. I made a conscious effort to learn to relate to people without using my lifetime of jargon. It was awkard for awhile. Eventually the jargon wore off.

Still, after all these years, I find myself 'floating'.. sort of spacing out mentally (what we used to call 'transcending')... it feels great!.. as I lie in bed in the morning slowly waking up to my alarm clock set on the classic music station! Oh well, Yes, i do miss doing TM. The self hypnosis neurochemical high felt great. A s Oz metioned, like heroin, it's better to stay away. Living in the TM community was wonderful in terms of social support, helping with each other's children etc. As long as you didn't think for yourself. I was always a voracious reader; but could never discuss my reading with anyone else!.... too radical!

Later on w/o cult involvent, and divorced, I was living a 'normal' single Mom life. I had relationship w/ another cultee (guess I'm just a glutton for punishment) which ended painfully, as posted elsewhere. Am now FINALLY dealing directly with my childhood cult issues. better late than never! Yes, am in a cult recovery therapy group. Reading LOTS on cult thought reform, recovery etc. Sometimes I think i'm done completely, but then another wave of something will come up. If I lurk and post on these boards, i must still be processing something!

There was a deep sense of lifelong betrayal when I finally accepted that my entire life has been cult surrounded. Am not angry w/ my parents, but am at even greater loss as to how to relate to them now.

I find that physical activity and 'hobbies' are grounding. The physical activity and the outdoors provide the natural endorphins. For myself : swimming, hiking in nature, reading, gardening, art museums, travel, foreign flicks, sewing... whatever I find enjoyable. and it's OK if my kids call me a 'nerd'... :D It's wonderful to live only for my own approval. Am blessed to have a life full of many 'healthy' loved ones. We have mutual appreciation and respect for our uniqueness. No jargon, nor shared paradigm defined by someone else, and discuss each other's opinions openly.
But it took conscious effort, and several years, to develop this life.

And, truly, I feel 'liberated' from others' expectations/demands for conformity. I'm happier than I've ever been!! :D

Hang in there, all of you, one foot in front of the other - you WILL pull through!

of various stressors from our modern, hectic environment.

IF you find you want to stay in the moment and not dissociate, there is not a lot of cultural support. You have to make very intentional efforts to do so and be very alert about the quality of your environment.

Thats what is sad. Lots of us decide we want to explore meditation, we look for a group or community that will offer information, support and validation for it---and its so very easy to find a group that peddles misleading information and in some cases, uses methods that are potentially harmful and doesnt give the truth about its guru's lack of qualifications to function in the guru role.

If you have any tendency towards dissociating, whether from TM involvment or from trauma of some other kinds--

It isnt just past conditioning from one's cult or family that can trigger dissociation.

We are now in a culture that pressures us to multi-task, that hampers most efforts to be in the moment.

Dont know if this has been scientifically verified, but Ive noticed that if I spend too much time indoors at my computer, I'm slightly spacier afterward. Thats the kind of work environment most of us are in today.

And many of us have to FIGHT to get enough free time for the activities that ground us--such as exercise, being in nature, etc. When you're a mom, getting access to self care resources is even harder.

There's also lots of subtle pressure through media etc to be 'up' to be super confident at all times. If you're depressed or sluggish or shy, use medication. If you think you want a spiritual path, there are tons of misleading messages out there that equate spiritual practice with seeking bliss or other altered states.

I am slowly coming to the realization I have a tendency to disassociate from my environment or circumstances very routinely. (Is it possible to actually [i:6edbab0b38]realize[/i:6edbab0b38] that one is disassociating?? ). Anyway, I am finding this quite disturbing in that I probably spend half my day on average in a disassociative state. They may be simply moments of it---relaxation techniques, stress reduction, meditation, day dreaming etc... and sometimes it's a longer period of disassociation- usually for the same reasons- when I have time to do it. Some of it is clearly intentional and other times I just go into that state spontaneously for no obvious reason.

I have been like this since my childhood and I sense do it more often now than I did as a child. I had always thought this behavior in a positive light as highly imaginative- but I am beginning to wonder how healthy it really is. Its not simply disassociating with the current reality (by clearing the mind like in mediation) but sometimes it involves creating other realities all together.

Perhaps what I experience is pretty normal in today's society as corboy stated there is not a lot of cultural support to stay in the moment. Maybe I should try and funnel these "creative tendencies" into art or writing so that it has more purpose and substance.

There are, however, official psychiatric conditions called disassociative disorders - and while I can see day dreaming on the mild end of disassociation and personality splitting or fugue/amnesia on the other end - I wonder at what point along the continuum do the symptoms become an official disorder needing attention/treatment?

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IF you find you want to stay in the moment and not dissociate, there is not a lot of cultural support. You have to make very intentional efforts to do so and be very alert about the quality of your environment.

'There are, however, official psychiatric conditions called disassociative disorders - and while I can see day dreaming on the mild end of disassociation and personality splitting or fugue/amnesia on the other end - I wonder at what point along the continuum do the symptoms become an official disorder needing attention/treatment?'

That point is probably different for each of us. A therapist would probably ask you

1) Do you dissociate voluntarily or involuntarily? If this happens involuntarily, this can be (at the very least) scary, and may hamper job safety/performance, relationships etc.

2) If you dissociate voluntarily, is this something you are addicted to, the way others are dependant on alcohol or drugs to manage moods? How much time in your day is spent dissociating. Only you can decide how much is too much.

I must have spent 4 hours a day dissociating when in high school. It was always under my conscious control, and I'd do it by creating vivid movies in my mind. But I was very dependant on it, the way other kids are dependant on TV, video games, etc. Id get anxious if I restricted how much time I spent 'hiding out' in my private movie theatre.

What helped me was finally getting to work with a therapist who specialized in PTSD/dissociative disorders. He created a sense of safety in the present moment (What a concept) and enabled me to feel curious about something I'd spent years being ashamed of. It also helped that by the time I began working with this person, a lot of information was now available about dissociative disorders. Back when I was in high school and college, I'd snuck into the psychiatry section in medical libraries but had found no description of what I was doing.

Turned out that I'd had lots of stress in childhood, dared not consciously admit it. I had all kinds of emotions of terror and anger, dared not experience this consciously, or admit that my parents were scaring me. So I'd create stories in my head that were intense and violent and matched the emotions I dared not acknowledge. I'd then transfer my emotions to my private movie theatre, and experience them safetly, at one or two removes from my day to day life.

Irony is, I was so good at managing my emotions using inner movies/dissociation that I never got into drugs or alcohol--I could use my mind to 'check out' rather than go to a liquor store or a dope dealer.

I fell hook line and sinker into a cultic relationship because the person matched up with one of my inner movies. So, thats the cult angle!