- in addition to the post on superiority complex above, it is worth noting that in part, it is this complex that allows some people both the gusto, and misplaced normality, that they can freely take something from others that simply does not belong to them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2021 05:29PM by facet.

OMG - Oh My God is a film currently available to watch online in various places, there is a full synopsis written about it on Wikipedia to check if the film is right for you to watch.

There is also a warning before the film in some cases that states it is a work of fiction, and that no offence is meant toward any particular religious sects etc.

[en.wikipedia.org]!

I think it is a good film with a nice message, and it is quite funny. If you are seriously devout then the film will be very offensive to you, so it is worth checking the synopsis first before watching.

If it wasn’t for meat eating, none of us would be standing here today.. pun absolutely intended :D

Quote
High meat intake correlates with moderate fertility, high intelligence, good health, and longevity with consequent population stability, whereas low meat/high cereal intake (short of starvation) correlates with high fertility, disease, and population booms and busts. Too high a meat intake and fertility falls below replacement levels. Reducing variances in meat consumption might help stabilise population growth and improve human capital.

[pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Related, there has been a large community of “ex vegans” and vegetarians growing over the last five to six years, searching the term on YouTube will throw up many individual experiences shared from personal realities involving restricted diets.

This information is copied completely from a page on Rational Wiki, found via the link at the end.

“Some thoughts from an ex devotee to add to this page”

Hi everyone, I'm not sure this is the right way for me to go about things but here goes:
I noticed that the page for International Society for Krishna Consciousness is closed - or at least, I can't edit the main (first) body of text. I imagine that some very devout devotees have come in here trying to delete things, or to post apologetic information, or something. Anyway, whatever the reason, there is something I'd like to add to it that I feel is of importance. It is in regards to the following body of text:

"Although ISKCON is often regarded as having 'gone astray' its often bizarre beliefs and exploitative or abusive practices actually find support in A. C Bhaktivedanta's many books and recorded talks. Among the 'purports' he wrote to accompany the Srimad Bhagavatam he condones rape and encourages child marriage, and he encouraged deception and considered anyone who disagreed with him as "envious," demonic and deserving of destruction."

Firstly I must congratulate whoever wrote that for having so succinctly described the way ISKCON and its founder's writing works. For context - I'm an ex-Hare Krishna devotee - I served them for 2 years and lived in an ashram, studying the books and so forth. I'm very happy to see someone put in just two sentences the summary of what took me about a year to realize after I had left them!

To this area, perhaps at the end of the quotations from Prabhupada's works themselves, I wanted to add that his Bhagavad-Gita "As It Is" (quotation marks my own) was revised into a Second Edition by some of his successors. When I was a devotee, there was also rumour that this same selection of devotees, who formed the editing team at the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust (as far as I'm aware), also revised and edited his other books, principally the Srimad Bhagavatam and the Chaitanya Charitamrita.

I've seen first-hand the original 70's Bhagavad-Gita "As It Is," and the newer Second Edition, and have noted the differences. This ties in a little with the saying that ISKCON has "gone astray," and is actually still a point of contention - devotees in my area did not want to talk about it, because if you dug too deep with who edited what and why, you might start questioning the authority of the present-day gurus.
Also, it has been said that Prabhupada's Srimad Bhagavatam has omitted large volumes of text dealing with sexual mysticism and yoga.

Unfortunately, I can't verify this just yet; though I still own a copy of his Bhagavatam it isn't with me right now, and it's a very large text. Just tossing it out there to the community perhaps might get some feedback? I'd be interested to know which Bhagavatams are good to cross-reference, or if anybody has done this work before. At the very least, I know that he interprets the parts of the Bhagavatam that deal with sex, mysticism, and alternate paths of yoga practice in a very skewed light. The end result is always, "join my devotees, chant hare krishna, follow the rules."

Prabhupada's Gita, skewed verses, and why it matters to talk about/satirize it.

Another addition I thought of making was a sub-heading dealing with Prabhupada's Gita, "As It Is." There are devout Hindus across book-review websites including Amazon and GoodReads who have rejected his version, on grounds that Prabhupada's polemical writing style, and his constant vilification and condemnation of those who disagree with him, is not in keeping with the true spirit of the Gita. There are also a fair number of deliberately mistranslated (I say "twisted") texts, most notably the "Brahma Havir" verse, Chapter 4, Verse 24. The Prabhupada version can be seen here. By cross-referencing it even with its own word-for-word translations, it is easy to see that the full translation offered, and the purport following, are complete nonsense.

It is out of step with what Krishna is discussing before and after, and the reason Prabhupada skirts around it is because the original translation leads to the conclusion that Brahman is everything ("All is One"), a staple of Hindu belief. This verse essentially describes the nature of Brahman and the relationship between religious practitioner, brahman, and the realization of that truth (Tattva). It has been raised as an example of Prabhupada's "dirty translating" in ex-devotee websites. Unfortunately, I can no longer link to my favorite source on this topic, because the author stopped editing. See Way Back Machine's archive of it here: Hare Krishna Women.
Point being: Prabhupada's books themselves claim to be presenting the "true Vedic wisdom," and the "original" Vedic tradition.

According to Prabhupada, the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, from which ISKCON stems (but deviates from), is re-establishing an ancient religion of Krishna worship that supposedly existed before Hinduism diversified and accepted "impersonalism" as a central doctrine.

As with all claims of "Truth" with a Capital T, skeptical analysis shows it to be bunk. I find his Gita is a good springboard for dissecting his views, how he put them into practice, and it might be a good way to mention the belief that Hare Krishnas are taught to believe that theirs is the "original" Hinduism, before "impersonalism," and Prabhupada justifies that belief by going to great lengths to conceal any trace of it in the actual texts he claims to present "As Is."

The Cult of Prabhupada.

Probably an even better sub-heading would be one that exposes the cult of personality that Prabhupada created around himself, and that his followers pushed even further after he died. In his books and even in recordings of interviews with journalists, Prabhupada explains that the guru must be treated like God. This has been the basis of how many gurus, especially corrupt ones both past and present, have justified their demands from their devotees, including the giving of money and the hanging on to every word the guru gives.

Nowadays, it is expected in Hare Krishna circles to never question authority.

While I lived with them, I could not question or talk back to, or even about, a "senior" devotee, even if their plans were obviously flawed or misguided, or they had no expertise or right to place themselves in authority. Positions of power were secretly vied for and once held, guarded closely by an elite who kept everyone "junior" to them in subordinate positions. All this, despite the scriptures themselves saying that a devotee would rise to spiritual advancement on their own merits and their own pacing, some faster than others.

The most major part of this don't question policy is to not question Prabhupada. It's actually a test of faith to see how many of Prabhupada's more outlandish and outrageous writings you believe. If you believe, for example, in Hare Krishna creationism, you will be one step closer to being initiated by a guru. If you believe that atheists are demonic and deserve destruction, you've almost got your foot in the door to get authorized to be married. That's right - authorized to be married. And if you believe their cosmology, and that we never landed on the moon, well, then you're fit for book distribution! Though there is a small faction of Hare Krishnas today who are questioning Prabhupada, they are frequently silenced and ridiculed in Hare Krishna circles. The most blatant and easily accessible space of fundamentalist Cult of Prabhupada fanaticism is the Sampradaya Sun, a kind of tabloid newspaper for Krishna cultists. The forums are particularly juicy.

The biggest marker of this Cult of Prabhupada, is the way people will parrot his speaking and writing style. Hare Krishnas have a list of jargon words and key arguments, which they try to present in their own words like real students might present an argument or fact they've learned from their teacher, but really, Prabhupada taught them to say it exactly as he did.
Some of these words include:
"nectar" this service is nectar his nectarian speech was so transcendental
"jaya" (rhymes with EYE, means joy or victory) I sold a book! Jaya!
"prabhu" (means master, used to address anyone to try and make yourself look humble) nice work on books, prabhu
"demoniac" (denotes anyone outside of the faith, really) man, universities have such a demoniac agenda.
"envious" and "puffed up" (assumes that people's souls are "envious" of Krishna and of devotees, resulting in abusive or "forgetful" behaviour) Scientists are just puffed up, they think they know it all, but really their soul just wants to deny Krishna.

All of these words and their concomitant stock phrases, and in turn the arguments in which they appear (e.g. the Frog in the Well) can be found in Prabhupada's books, letters, and audio recordings. Luckily for researchers, they're repeated quite often, so it's easy to find examples of them. Just browse any part of the internet where Hare Krishnas are openly singing the praises of some book and become challenged (like the comments section of Amazon.com) and you'll see his arguments present, with minor variations.

In the present day, Prabhupada is believed to have even been sent directly from the spiritual world to accomplish his mission of establishing ISKCON. One of my roommates even believed this. It's an interesting process to study for academics, because it might shed light into how prophets, zealots and other such big religious teachers metamorphosis into gods or divine messengers.

Hare Krishna and Women.

I've written a lot tonight so I'll be brief. The most well-known aspect of the Hare Krishnas, and the one I get questioned the most as to whether it's true, is their sexist attitudes and practices towards women. Marriage is controlled, women are seen as a lesser birth than men (and I quote, "less intelligent").

Marriage is presented to young men as undesirable, and sex is strictly for conceiving children. There are also some weird rituals that married couples are supposed to adhere to, including the invitation of a monk and congregation to witness the conception of the child, while they sing and chant mantras, though most (if not all) Hare Krishnas either don't practice that or know about it.

When I was there, we were encouraged to be Brahmacharyas (monks), at least for a few years before deciding to get married. If we came to the organization young and enamoured by the opposite sex, we were told that it was "not a marriage bureau," and scolded for thinking it was an easy way to get a family. If we did get married before accepting monastic life, it was more less treated like "girl pushups": you did it because you were weak and could not go the full mile.

Hare Krishnas are also keen on re-establishing a caste system, though not entirely in keeping with India's current system. There are even farming communities and gurukulas (lit. guru school, founded by Bhaktivedanta Swami and infamous for child sex abuse in the 80's).

Referencing for all this.

All this stuff I've posted are suggestions. I'll spend some time over the next couple of weeks combing the net for some reference material. I don't have my Krishna books on me at the moment, but may be able to get my paws on them over the year.

I'm really keen to expand the material on ISKCON and Hare Krishnas on here. I think whoever wrote the page on Hare Krishna Creationism did a bang up job, I'd just like to see a bit more substance and well-deserved satire on the main page describing what they're like.

Thanks for reading through all this! My name is Mr Fox and I'm happy to help in any way I can here on RW.

[rationalwiki.org])



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2021 01:10AM by facet.

Quote
Often the people doing the appropriating belong to a privileged group, while the people they take from belong to an oppressed or marginalized group.

This is an excellent article found online regarding the subject of Cultural Appropriation.

https://www.healthline.com/health/cultural-appreciation

It will not apply to everybody involved in this threads group mentions, if it does then you can understand and learn for yourself, and also spot it in others as a means of self care and self protection in the world.

Your posy has not yet been higjacked by Krishna fanatics? I guess that I am the lucky one! Lol!

Maybe because the moderator came in and mentioned something :-)

I think it is a valuable thing to be able to come onto a specialist forum such as this one and quote the scriptures of Krishna consciousness to those who have come away from it, they will have to behave in order to maintain their account.

For the purpose of those who may not not know: It is worth mentioning that Krishna consciousness is based on a bunch of re-written scripture, it is not the original Mahabharata where Krishna originally appeared.

[en.wikipedia.org]

In addition to the last post, “commentary” is someone’s own personal flavour.

Many “commentaries” on the original Baghavad Gita exist, which if the Gita is as it is, would need no such commentary. Tradition is handed down, although not without the additional flavours of someone else.

Continuing on, an interesting link on how Russia was forced into accepting the Baghavad Gita As It Is, despite their own countries findings:

Quote
The trial was initiated in June 2011 in Tomsk, Russia, based on an assessment of the book by scholars of Tomsk State University, which concluded that Prabhupada's commentaries incite religious, social, and racial intolerance. The trial caused controversy, which was reported in the Indian, Russian, and international media, as well as on social networks. The Indian government harshly criticized the proposed ban as "patently absurd" undertaking of "ignorant and misdirected or motivated individuals". The overwhelmingly wide negative response to the trial forced Russian officials to offer apologies to India, promising the necessary remedial measures to prevent the ban. The trial also sparked public protests and legal actions in India against the proposed ban and drew harsh criticism of the intellectual community in Russia, leading Russian scholars publicly denounced the perpetuation of the trial.

[en.wikipedia.org]

[theprint.in]

Quote
Three biases

The Gita’s western trajectory was primarily responsible for three biases that continue to inform politics in India today.

The first bias is that the Bhagavad Gita was and is the most representative text of Indian philosophy. This is by no means true because in earlier times there were many contending philosophical schools in India and the interpretations of Bhagavad Gita varied widely.

The second is that Indian philosophy, as represented by the Bhagavad Gita, was essentially religious at heart. This, again, is untrue because there were many philosophies in India, not just Buddhist but also of some schools of Vedanta, which were known as nastika.

And the third is that the most important shloka of the Gita is the one about us having a right to action but not to its fruits. As noted writer and theorist Sibaji Bandyopadhyay has shown, this particular shloka was never the centrepiece of the Bhagavad Gita, and was made so primarily by modern European commentators like Hegel, which in turn informed the Indian nationalist imagination of political action as sacrifice.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2021 12:50AM by facet.

Plenty of devout people may pop up to tell us that our experience of the group is faulty, not the group.

They want to protect the group for their own reasoning, and not anything else.

Here is an answer (from someone’s personal real life experience) to the question “what is the dark side of iskcon?” which will help acknowledge experiences that were not pleasant and are dismissed by others because it didn’t happen to them.

Quote
This answer is purely out of my personal experience with a family that I am very close to. I witnessed my friend who has a tough childhood and who is emotionally attached to his parents like everyone does. He lost his father in his youth and believed the rest of the happiness is with his family. All went well until ISKCON happened to his mom.

Her rare visits to ISKCON eventually turned out to be frequent and finally to an addiction. It made her a totally different person. I used to have a positive opinion about ISKCON for many years. When you get closer to it and don't fall into their scandalous basket you will understand its dark side too.

Like they always quote - It is also ‘A transcendental experience’. Their temple atmosphere and the aesthetics are very pleasant. You feel serene when you pay a visit. But, if you go deeper and observe, you can notice their pyramidal marketing strategy. It starts with their books.

The frequent visitors to the temple will always be the ones who are not happy with their lives or dissatisfied about something. These people are ISKCON’s prime targets to grow.

They say that you can climb up the spiritual ladder only through the attainment of Krishna’s consciousness. Their essence is that the outside world is full of wretchedness and suffering and you will be only saved if you follow the principles mentioned in the Gita [u](they have their own deduction of Gita by Prabhupada)[/u] .

Well, fine till here. It is possible. A good book will definitely soothe our pain. Next, you need to come out of material belongings and detach yourself from family pleasures and serve the Supreme Lord for self realization. They claim that the servants (called as Prabhu by the devotees, they will be given names usual ended with DASA.

You can see some of the answers to the questions about ISKCON will be written by them) of the Supreme should be treated like him. They are equally divine because they are serving the Supreme directly. And they believe that, the Lord will forgive if we speak ill of him but will not tolerate if we do it on them.

Now, this where I see a problem. My friend's mom who is fervently devotional, actually visited the temple just like she normally visits other temples. After a few months, her routine completely changed. Nobody can notice that she gets a good night's sleep. She claims the Prabhus who work in the temple are the true Gurus and they sacrificed so much and attained so much knowledge because of Krishna’s consciousness. To her, nobody is as great as them. She claims all the family she had till now is temporary.

There is no truth in it. Things changed between my friend and his mom. They are not the same anymore. She is in a trance mode. She stopped earning money. And… she started promoting ISKCON. Trying to sell and distribute their books to others. A pleasant life of theirs drastically changed because of an entity that ISKCON believes will change everything. His faith in family life diminished. He lost a good friend - his mother's emotional support when needed.

Questions to ponder: A low-income worker who works for a daily wage of Rs. 150 for 12 hours, travels 3 hours and lives in a Hut dedicating his life to his wife and his 8 year old child and for his education. Who is more great? The Prabhu who resides at the temple premises or the worker? Whose sacrifice is real? We don't have to dig deeper into books.

If God is really there and you confront him, do you think he will appreciate looking at what happened with my friend?

How about propagating God like this - There is only one God for everyone and he is busy taking care of us. How about you take care of your family, work hard for them, help others as much as you can and enjoy the luxury you really deserve? If they really propagate God like this how will organisations like ISKCON survive?

Conclusion: It's always a good deed to help someone else and that is how humanity is saved. If anyone is being affected because of your actions or addictions, I believe it is always better to consider their opinion before shocking them. Yes, the world might be full of wretchedness and suffering but I believe we can pass through if we have a loved one who will be through our thick and thin. Sometimes, they are right out there but we don't notice. God isn't harmful. Organisations like these are.

[www.quora.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2021 12:25AM by facet.