The warning signs have been there for SGI, especially for those involved in the inner circles at higher levels.
There is really no question, that if a SGI higher-up, in the inner circle of SGI tried to come forward with real information about what has gone on, that they would stop at nothing to silence them.
Its similar to the Scientology "fair-game" doctrine.

When SGI sees a serious "enemy", they will literally stop at nothing to deal with that person.
So for those who were higher-up in the SGI food-chain, near the top, there is no question fanatical senior SGI people would stop at nothing to "eliminate" the problem.

Again, that is not going to apply to a local SGI person who is at the edge of SGI, or a regular person.

But near the top of SGI, then they are dealing with many billions of dollars, its a different story. The warning signs point to the fact that they will stop at nothing.

Quote
Rothaus
commongirl ... if you are a person hope you read all this ...

The thing is, a serious SGI loyalist would not be moved by any of these accounts at all. When I was in SGI, I used to hear leaders say that the Japanese tabloids were always making up stories about SGI to sell newspapers. Now, they would just say that disgruntled and trouble-making ex-members are using the internet to spread their spite or jealousy of SGI members. They point out that Nichiren Daishonin was oppressed repeatedly in his life because he was telling the truth...and that SGI is now being oppressed for telling the truth -- that the existence of these kinds of stories, is, in a strange and interesting way, proof of the correctness of SGI's positions! It's so bizarre, how these SGI leaders and members can do this! They can take something, like negative newspaper stories about SGI, that should be evidence that SGI is wrong -- and turn it into evidence that SGI is RIGHT! I've never encountered any group of people, anywhere, who are so slick. Used car salesmen could take lessons from these people.

So what's true? DO I really know with 100% certainty that all of these stories I've copied have actually happened exactly as written? I wasn't there, so I can't know that. I do find it interesting that there are just so many similar stories on so many different sites and from so many different countries. Look, Time, Forbes, the San Francisco Chronicle, The Australian Magazine, Korean and Japanese Newspapers, The Strait Times (Singapore), Congressman Kawasaki of Japan, Victorious America, and the Spokane County Court system. How would you get all of these different people, publications and groups to unite against SGI? Why would they want to -- unless SGI members actually were guilty of some wrongdoing?

Members of SGI Unofficial messageboard also had some things to say about "The Day The Clear Mirror Cracked.

-----------------------------------Beginning of Quote--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "billanker1" <banker91344@...>
wrote:
>
> This story has a strong ring of truth about it but I think I need to point out
that Mark is using it as part of his campaign against the SGI and President
Ikeda. I don't know where he got this story or who the story is about, but it's
clearly not his story and he doesn't make that clear at all. I wonder, having
read the story, how the person who wrote it would feel about it being used,
without attribution, as part of a campaign against the SGI and as a recruting
tool.
>

Hi Bill!
I agree that this story has many marks of truth in it. But I also recall what
one of my best mentors in the practice, the late Rollo Turner, used to tell me:
There are two sides to every story. Reading this narrative, I am utterly at a
loss to understand the motives of the character called Matt. Perhaps he is as
erratic, illogical, and unstable as he is portrayed, or maybe we don't have the
whole story. I also found it very difficult at many points to understand exactly
what the point of contention was.

That said, we all know that there have been many cases of leaders misbehaving,
slandering members (just consider what they said about Andy and the other IRG
folks), and generally doing very destructive things. Unfortunately, SGI sweeps
such things under the rug, and so the opportunity to learn from them is lost. I
think SGI would be a stronger, better, and certainly more credible organization
if such episodes were openly acknowledged and discussed. I also find it
interesting that the worst of these stories always seem to come from California
or New York. - B.
-------------------------------------------End of Quote---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note: "Andy" was a member of the IRG, a group asking Soka Gakkai leaders to give members more say in the organization -- for which he and his friends were badly slandered by SGI leaders.

"Mark" is Mark Rogow, a member of Kempon Hokke, and a blogger on "Fraught With Peril." I believe that "The Day The Clear Mirror Cracked" was first posted on Mark's blog on the Fraught With Peril website. I don't know who the narrator of the "The Day the Clear Mirror Cracked" actually is. Apparently, it's not Mark's experience. Is it Nichijew's? I don't know. Reading it, I was thinking that a woman was the narrator, and Nichijew's clearly a man. I'll have to go back and reread it.

I agree with "B." SGI just sweeps all this stuff -- leaders' and members' misbehavior under the rug. They refuse to even discuss it. They really would be stronger, and more credible if they would admit to, and discuss problems. With the Internet, there's no way that a group can just keep its struggles to itself -- the details can be broadcast worldwide in seconds. Yet, SGI just doesn't learn. The attitude still is, "Problems? What problems? Just troublemakers making up stories."

well what strikes me is that as Tsukimoto has pointed out already that the stories and experiences are very similar.
As my own personal one even the the cracked mirror one is not sensational it would not even suffice as a basis for a news article (to many issues an outsider won't understand), but it does show that if members base their action on what the perceive to be Nichirens teaching and leave organisational issues aside is enough to cause suspicion.
SGI rather looses members that to allow for more tranparency in its decission making process - what do they have to hide??
The lady in that experience quite nicely showed that in her situation even to base her arguments on the Gosho did not do the trick. Even when she argued along the line of mr. ikedas "guidances" she was out to loose, as one has to know which "guidances" from which time line she used. Mr. ikedas guidances do have one great flaw - depending from when the originate they contradict themselves.
She also described that the leader in quetsion could not debate - how should he anyway there are si many issues members are kept igrnorant on. The internet for SGI surely must be a terrible thing ... more an dmore people are abel to tell their story and after searching for a while will find a platform to make their story heard.
And its those little scandals that make people think "hey I experienced something similar".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2009 02:16PM by Rothaus.

The Following is a summary of the October SGI USA national leader's meeting:

"When You Lose You Actually Win."

HOW FORTUNATE I AM TO HAVE A MENTOR LIKE THIS.

[www.sgi-usa.org]

Tariq Hassan:

We just got back from Japan receiving guidance and meeting Sensei. Though it was a hard time with the loss of the LDP and Komeito, Sensei was in high spirits. He gave us tremendous guidance, "When you lose you actually win!". So very important, the unity of mentor and disciple as we walk along side our mentor. Sensei said to his Japanese leaders, "please learn from America the spirit of oneness of mentor and disciple". We met Hiromasa Ikeda and Vice President Hasagawa who said: "facing times of change, how much greater the mission of America. With ever deeper faith in the oneness of mentor and disciple we will protect sensei." Again, as disciples of President Ikeda let us joyfully advance. We make the mentor proud when we unite wholeheartedly with him. With the Mentor we will always win (does that mean lose? HA HA). Sensei's guidance was on the importance of statistics and statistics department. I am the head of the statistics department though I didn't volunteer for this job (joke). There will be monthly statistics meetings for the districts. New form to remove someone from the SGI statistics roll. I will be happy to assist the SGI in doing statistics. In Japan, it takes six months before someone is removed from statistical rolls, signature of district and chapter chief required.

Linda Johnson:

Chant to live up to the mentor. Learn from President Ikeda. He gets this Buddhism. He has never lost (then he has never won?? HA HA sorry to interrupt). Linda J. continues, To manifest your capacity...vital to study Sensei. Send out only Sensei's encouragment on the internet not your own. Lets learn from the best. Home visit every member. It is the time to teach them about Sensei and how to win (which is really losing???). "Bless her" (Kitty Shapiro who helped her when she was a new member) hallelujah. Chant to let me win. (shouldn't she have said, chant to let me lose which is actually to win?). Then she spoke about the attitude one should have when we chant. Maybe she mentioned the Gohonzon one or two times. Determine that your members will win today. Challenge ourselves to care about the members winning. Never leave a home visit without impressing on that person the oneness of mentor of disciple. This is the eternal formula we must get and teach. To insure through our care that every single member always tap unlimited potential and win we must practice with the spirit of mentor and disciple. Change our lives, the lives of our family, and this country.

Next young mens's division leader Nathan (Abraham Lincoln) Gauer:

Who will uphold Sensei's legacy? 50th anniversary of his visit to America in July. Culture festivals. Sensei determined to spend the remaining part of his life in America, the country he loves best. Culture Festival for Sensei. REALLY REALLY GREAT (Must be spending too much time with Danny Nagashima.) Real short speech.

Vanissa Shaw national YWD leader, Crest toothpaste girl, actress, and Ikeda disciple extroadinaire:

ARE YOU READY TO ROCK THE ERA. ROCK THE ERA MEETINGS AND FESTIVALS IN JULY. AMERICA CAPITAL OF MENTOR AND DISCIPLE. "Entire focus, the mentor". duh. As Sensei has said always sing a gakkai song during our Rock The Era meetings. Sensei we will create the capital of mentor disciple.

Keith Beeber student division leader: National direction... shakabuku on college campuses. Since July, 15 universities 200 guests and 35 shakabuku. Carry on the spirit of the oneness of mentor and disciple based on the mentors guidance form student groups. Bring joy to Sensei by warmly embracing our leaders.

Danny Nagashima shouting as usual:

HELLO EVERYONE ARE YOU HAPPY? THANK YOU THANK YOU VERY MUCH. We did 1984 shakabuku in the month of august, the most in twenty years. We have been waiting for this moment for twenty years. (somewhat surprisingly, muted cheering and clapping). The time has come. We have to create AMERICA WITH YOUTH DIVISION. I'M THIRTY YEARS OLD. EVERYONE IS YOUTH DIVISION. AS LONG AS WE SEEK SENSEI WE CAN REMAIN YOUNG. THE KEY TO VICTORY IS STATISTICS. 70 % increase in membership (I have a bridge to sell you). As a disciple of Daisaku Ikeda,the oneness of mentor and disciple IS THE KEY. We will make exhibits of mentor and disciple. Fifty years since Sensie's first visit to United States. We are experiencing in America, the great character of Daisaku Ikeda, we are fusing with him. Something genuine is the oneness of mentor and disciple. What is the Genuine meaning of oneness of mentor and disciple? SEEKING SENSEI (Im getting a freaking migraine). Genuine disciple of sensei is never defeated. Ever victorious. Always winning. KANSAI NEVER LOST SINCE 1957. With your bond with sensei you will be ever victorius, EVER VICTORIOS WITH SENSEI (flailing his arms and coming back to his chest), with sensei. SCREAMING AGAIN. YOU BODHISATTVAS TO CREATE EVER VICTORIOUS AMERICA. HOW MUCH CAN WE CREATE THIS KANSAI. KANSAI NEVER LOST SINCE 1957. Orlando Cepeda joke and then 7 points of victory for Kansai. Oneness of mentor and disciple, repeating it again several times. SHOUTING AGAIN: READING GOSHO AND SENSEI'S GUIDANCE; UNITY; FIGHT AGAINST INJUSTICE; LIGHTENING SPEED IN COMMUNICATIONS AND GUIDANCE; ACTION ACTION ACTION; ALWAYS WIN (which means lose?); Last one I didn't get(BECOME A LION?) BASED ON ONENESS OF MENTOR AND DISCIPLE.

Platitudes upon platitudes.

6 mentions of Nichiren Daishonin. >100 mentions of Ikeda. No mention of Shakyamuni. One or, at most, two mentions of the Gohonzon, No mention of the Lotus Sutra.

Are they winning? That must mean losing HA HA.

Protect Sensei? The guy's already got dozens of body guards who will take a bullet for his old self but they want you to protect him all the way from New Jersey.


On October 13, 1282, surrounded by his disciples and followers, and reciting with them the "Stanzas of Eternity" (Ji Ga Ge) from the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra, Nichiren expired at the age of sixty one. The cherry trees bloomed out of season and the earth quaked. Our tears flow unceasingly.

Namu Myoho renge kyo
Namu Myoho renge kyo
Namu myoho renge kyo

Nichijew

More fun with SGI members, from mombu.com

First, Japanese housewives behaving badly:

---------------------------------------Beginning of Quote, mombu.com--------------------------------------------------------------------

TIME Magazine
November 20, 1995 Volume 146, No. 21
JAPAN
THE POWER OF SOKA GAKKAI
GROWING REVELATIONS ABOUT THE COMPLICATED AND SINISTER NEXUS OF
POLITICS AND RELIGION
EDWARD W. DESMOND/TOKYO REPORTED BY IRENE M. KUNII/TOKYO
According to ex-followers, Soka Gakkai spies on its own ranks, trailing and intimidating those who are unsure of their
commitment. Shuichi Sanuki, editor of a biweekly newspaper for the 10,000 members of the Soka Gakkai Victims
Association, claims to have overseen, among other activities,
the sect's alleged spying apparatus in Tokyo. He quit, along with
many other disenchanted members, in 1991 when the Nichiren
Shoshu, which provided the sect's priesthood, grew angry
over Ikeda's attempts to take over the religious wing and
excommunicated him. Sanuki says he received death threats over
the phone, and members of the Soka Gakkai Housewives'
Association even contacted his wife and urged her to divorce him.
Says he: "I know what the group does to people whom it regards
as its enemies. It's not safe for anyone who dares to
criticize it." For its part, Soka Gakkai resolutely denies any
involvement in such harassment.

-------------------------------------End of Quote--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please note that divorce is not nearly as common in Japan as in the west. Normally, SGI Japan would advise a wife to stay, chant more, and try to be a better wife, even if the husband were violent, a drunk, or a cheater. But hey, Sanuki criticized the SGI, so it's surprising that the Soka Gakkai Housewives Association didn't advise Mrs. Sanuki to put rat poison in her husband's tea.

Our next account: YMD behaving badly. Their leader in this mayhem? None other than our friend and mentor, Daisaku!

--------------------------Beginning of Quote, mombu.com-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE OGASAWARA INCIDENT

A book about the Soka Gakkai, highly praised by Daisaku
Ikeda for its accuracy, renders this account of the circumstances
surrounding the Ogasawara incident, wherein an 80 year old
priest was stripped to his underwear and assaulted: 1

"Toda had not always displayed the reverence and humble
loyalty that might be expected of a lay believer toward the priests
at Taisekiji. Addressing members of his organization, he would often
speak of 'bad priests,' compared with whom Toda was a far better
student of the canon of Nichiren Shoshu in both knowledge and
conduct...

.Toda felt particularly bitter toward one Taisekiji priest, Jimon Ogasawara....
" (He) felt that the priests, and Ogasawara in particular, were largely
responsible for the government suppression of Soka Kyoiku Gakkai and
for Makiguchi's death in jail
" ...Toda never forget this, nor did he forgive Ogasawara.

On the eve of April 28, 1952, when Taisekiji held a major service
to commemorate the founding of the Nichiren sect in 1253,
Toda visited the temple with _4000_ members of his Youth
Division (__led by__ __Daisaku Ikeda__) and assaulted Ogasawara.
Toda felt justified in doing so to avenge his late teacher and demanded
an apology from the octogenarian priest. When Ogasawara refused,
the young men mobbed him and carried him on their shoulders, tagging
him with a placard inscribed: Tanuki Bozu (Racoon Monk). Ogasawara
was taken to Makiguchi's grave, where he was forced to sign a statement of apology.

"Interviewed on July 2, 1956, in the Japan Times, [Toda] admitted
hit ting the priest 'twice' and said that this was the cause of the extremely
unfavorable press his organization then received --which labeled Soka
Gakkai as a 'violent religion.' "

"Ogasawara filed a complaint with the authorities against Soka
Gakkai for assault and battery. In November 1952, Nissho, the high
priest of Taisekiji, reprimanded Toda for the April 27 incident and
Toda responded with an apology printed in the Seikyo Shimbun....
He promised that Soka Gakkai would follow the iron rule of absolute obe-
dience to the policy of the (Taiskiji) administration would con-
tinue to serve its interests.. " 2

1 Murata, Kiyoaki; Japan's New Buddhism: An Objective Account
of Soka Gakkai; John Weatherhill, Int, Tokyo, 1969.
2 bid.,pp.95 -97.
----------------------------------------------End of Quote--------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no doubt that the Ogasawara Incident really did happen -- it received huge amounts of publicity in Japan at the time, was covered in all the major newspapers. Daniel B. Montgomery's book, "Fire in the Lotus" also describes the attack in detail. Toda himself admitted to hitting the elderly priest. This makes me think that other reports of Soka Gakkai members attacking and harassing people could also be true. The pattern was set right then and there -- Toda and Ikeda believe that it's commendable to strike out at anyone whom they perceive to be an enemy of SGI.

Their apology and promise to obey the priests? Didn't mean a damn thing; it was just to get people to stop criticizing SGI. I honestly think at that time, Ikeda and Toda vowed that they would be free of priestly interference someday. This attack in 1952 foreshadowed the SGI/Nichiren Shoshu split of the 1990's. I think that they were planning the split as far back as then. They were just waiting for SGI to have the money and the numbers of members -- and then when they did, they could say "Sayonara" to the priests.

Years ago, I asked my leaders about the Ogasawara Incident. They, not surprisingly, defended Toda and Ikeda's actions, saying that the priest had caused the Japanese wartime government to imprison Tsunesaburo Makiguchi, the first SGI president, and Toda, the second. The imprisonment was very brutal. Makiguchi, an old man at the time, died in prison. Didn't I think that Toda's rage was justified, the leader asked me.

A mob of young men beating up an eighty-year old man? Justifiable? How much did he actually have to do with Toda's and Makiguchi's imprisonment? They were defying a very brutal and repressive military dictatorship. Regardless of what the priest did or didn't do, was the Japanese government going to let them get away with it?

It bothered me then, as it does now, that my leaders would defend Toda's and Ikeda's actions -- a mob of young men beating an eighty-year old man? Especially men from a Buddhist organization that talks about peace, and the value of human life? But that's SGI ---ANYTHING Toda and Ikeda would do is good. If they'd murdered this old priest, my leaders would think that it was good.

I can't help thinking of Pope John Paul II going to visit the man who tried to assassinate him -- and forgiving him. The Dalai Lama, forgiving the Chinese for their actions in Tibet -- but still speaking out against them. Martin Luther King and Gandhi, and their followers, peacefully resisting violent people who wished them harm. Then I think of Ikeda and his friends, strong young men beating up a lone elderly man. I think of the exhibit, "Gandhi, King and Ikeda." How dare SGI compare Ikeda to Gandhi and King?

More on the Ogasawara Incident

-------------------------Beginning of Quote, mombu.com-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1969, Daisaku Ikeda freely exonerated the Soka Gakkai for their at-
tack on Ogasawara, going so far as to call it "an act of kindness" carried
out to alert the priest to the errors of his writings.

In view of Ikeda's attitude, it is interesting to note a document issued by
Toda on June 25, 1942. This document gives support to the wartime
government's directive to enshrine and protect the Shinto Object of Wor-
ship, the Kotai Jingu.

The official statement regarding the Kotai Jingu (Shrine of the
Emperor God) was sent to each Riji and Shibucho of the Soka Kyoiku Gak-
kai by Josei Toda.(Toda changed his name twice; born dainichi, he later
changed this to Jogai, and finally to Josei.)

In the statement, Toda
directed that members should be respectful toward these Shinto objects in
their homes and not treat them carelessly.

This document from Toda stands in refutation to the Soka Gakkai's
claim that it never yielded in any way to the Japanese wartime govern-
ment's edict on religious policy.

1 Murata, Kiyoaki; Japan's New Buddhism: An Objective Account of Soka Gakkai;
John Weatherhill, Int, Tokyo, 1969.

2 bid.,pp.95 -97.
-----------------------------------------End of Quote---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First, Ikeda's statement that beating up Ogasawara was an act of kindness is, well.....interesting. In SGI-Speak, being attacked by a mob is "AN ACT OF KINDNESS." Well, if you can say that losing an election is really victory, as the SGI-USA leaders in Nichijew's post did -- hey, why not? In SGI-Speak, you can twist words to mean anything you want. Love is hate. Peace is war. War is peace. Hate is love. Victory is loss, loss is victory. Again, I'm reminded of the Byron Katie thread on the "Cults, Sects and New Religious Movements" board. She scrambles language like that, saying things that sound as if they make absolutely no sense. There are those who say that she may have had a stroke, or be abusing codeine....and yet her followers eat it up. They can't understand her, so they are convinced that she must be on a whole different plane of wisdom than the rest of us mortals. Ikeda and his minions are just doing the same thing -- saying things that make no sense to mess with people's minds.

What I would say to Ikeda and his buddies: "Nonsense is not wisdom. Nonsense is nonsense!"

The bit about the Shinto talisman is very interesting as well. SGI's story, is during World War II, the Japanese military government wanted everyone to enshrine Shinto talismans. Shinto is about emperor and ancestor worship -- very Japanese, very nationalistic. The government wanted to promote Shinto rather than Buddhism. Shinto, they thought, would encourage the Japanese to fight harder in the war, to be super-patriotic, to fly their planes into the sides of Allied ships for the greater glory of the Emperor and his ancestor the Sun Goddess.

The government didn't really like people practicing Buddhism. Buddhism, or Christianity might encourage the Japanese to value human life -- which might make them less willing to kill, and be killed.

SGI's story is that the government wanted everyone to make a shrine in their home or temple to the emperor. People were given Shinto talismans -- a plaque or statue or something and they were supposed to make a shrine for it. SGI's story is that the Nichiren Shoshu priests were more than happy to make their little Shinto shrines in the temples -- but that Toda and Makiguchi absolutely resisted this -- and were tossed into very brutal conditions in Sugamo Prison for their resistance.

And yet this author, Murata, quotes a letter that Toda wrote to his followers -- "Be careful with the Shinto talismans, treat them with respect." Well, that TOTALLY contradicts what SGI has been saying for years about the enshrining of Shinto talismans. SGI SAYS that Toda was absolutely against doing anything with the talismans. SGI's stance is "Good Toda, wouldn't cooperate with the government on the talismans, bad priests would cooperate."

Well, maybe not. Maybe Toda really hated the priests' compliance with the government -- because he was guilty of doing the exact same thing. Sort of like that anti-gay politician who was found making advances to some guy in the men's room.

Last year, I followed the Byron Katie thread on the "Cults, Sects and New Religious Movements Board with great interest. I didn't know why I was interested in this thread, I just was. Now, I realize that it was because Ikeda actually acts quite a bit like Katie. Both will tell you that if you follow them, you can be forever happy. Both have made a fortune selling this message, and both want to spread their philosophy and influence throughout the world.

The senior leadership of SGI, as you'll notice on Nichijew's last post, uses language in a very confusing way. "Losing is winning." "Beating up an old priest is kindness." What the hell is this? And lots of "Let's unite with the mentor," "One-ness of mentor and disciple." It sounds like these people are crazy --- but what's really going on here?

Byron Katie is a woman in California who has made a fortune conducting large-group seminars, and writing books. She uses language in a similar way -- saying things that sound crazy, and almost inviting her to fuse with her, to become one with her -- in the same way that SGI leaders urge their followers to become one with President Ikeda.

The Byron Katie thread is over 200 pages. Many pages explain how and why she uses language the way she does. It has a lot to do with Ericksonian hypnosis and Neuro-linguistic programming. I can't explain it well, and briefly, but basically, it is about using confusing language to override the logical mind and get into the subconscious mind.

I think that SGI is doing the same thing in the speeches that Nichijew quoted. Oh, it sounds like a bunch of rah rah rah -- and some of the leaders sound a bit whacked, as Byron Katie does sometimes. But as Anticult and others have been able to explain on the Byron Katie thread -- what seems like babbling is actually done with a purpose. These people know exactly what they're doing. What appears to be babbling, confusing speech does get an emotional response from a certain percentage of the audience. It makes them want to connect with the speaker. Both Ikeda and Byron Katie have become very wealthy, creating organizations that have made millions for them (probably billions in Ikeda's case.) Both of them have many followers who will do absolutely anything for them. They may sound confused -- but they know exactly what they are doing.

-----------------------------------Beginning of Quote, Byron Katie Thread, posted by Anticult-------------------------------------------------------
[Anticult's words:]

That language below is standard trance-work, twisted to her own method. Its more for her followers who have been exposed to her words before, and they will literally get swept into those words.
Artfully Vague, Induced Confusion, Double-Binds, paradox..
Its not meant for the everyday conscious mind, but for the UNCONSCIOUS, like the mind in dreams.

The twisted part is she is literally FUSING her own identity concept, with that of the reader, if they buy into the words. She even mimicks some Gnostic new testament language from John...I am in you..you in me...etc.
She wants the reader to FUSE and become ONE with the concept of "Byron Katie", and "belonging" to her. She plays with paradox and confusion-inducing.

Also, taken from the 'Nog' concept, she constructs "Byron Katie" as a type of mystery wrapped in an enigma living only in the moment, which is very destabilizing.
So the reader who buys into that trance-language, is going to FUSE their own self-concept with the Byron Katie concept, and the language being used is even similar to language from the new testament...to magnify that projection too.

I don't know, that language is not strange to me at all. You have to be very intelligent to write that sort of language, especially since its part of a huge system of writing, and stories, using Open Loops, etc. She has designed an almost entire new vocabulary of words and images, a seperate BK-universe.

Its perfectly rational and carefully written, in the context it was written, to speak to the UNCONSCIOUS...
To make you think she is some walk-in spiritual being from another dimension who is at the very core of your being. If you really buy into it, eventually she IS you.
The subject will literally totally identify with BK, in terms of self-concept.

Awesome and terrifying stuff.
This is why the NLpers and hypnotherapists are getting in on the act, they see exactly what she is doing. Those are all carefully written and designed Inductions.

but its very dangerous to FUSE your own self-concept with some destabilized guru concept like this.

How do you turn it off? To get rid of it, you have to excise those concepts from your mind, using the same methods in reverse.

[Quote, Byron Katie's Words:]

"I invite you all to inquiry, to your own marvelous death of the body (before it dies) as you understand it to be and to be born of who and what you are not to your mind and then to understand what you are in that, as that unknowable known."

"Your own answers to the questions and examples of turnarounds have kept us as one, undivided in peace and beyond, for so many months, even years."

"I live in you and I die in you, what else is possible? Nothing."

"I love living in you if you love it and I can tell you that you live in me and only that, you are my life."

"I love not belonging to me and you do and belonging to you when I do."

"What identification have you given me? I live as that."

"Do you love me yet? I welcome you to love beyond the self."
-----------------------------------------------------End of Quote---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's interesting to me that Katie speaks so much of fusion: "...kept us as one," "I live in you and I die in you," "...you live in me," "....belonging to you." The message, over and over, is that we must become one with her --- a total stranger. And frankly, a woman who's made a boatload of money off of the people who think they've become one with her!

And then look at what all those leaders said about how SGI members should relate to Ikeda: "Oneness of mentor and disciple! Oneness of mentor and disciple! Oneness of mentor and disciple!" Yes, become one with a man you've never met, and probably never will meet, and he's also made a boatload -- hell, you could fill a whole FLEET of boats -- with cash from people who think they've become one with him!

God help us, these gurus are just so similar!

@ Nichijew

To be honest I find the quotes from that october 2008 meeting quite disturbing - to say the least. Fanaticism pure actually.
Could not access the site since it seems password secured --- ehm how were you able to access them?

@ Tsukimoto

Its interesting for you to mention the Shinto issue. There is and was Shinto and Shinto. Shinto is the ancient "religion" of Japan and it sort of mixed with Buddhism and vice versa. The "state Shinto" what we often refer to in the West is a relatively new thing in terms of its formalism. Most, if not all, Buddhist traditions in Japan have picked up Shinto aspects and may it only be referring to some Shinto gods.
On the other hand building temples was something Shinto adopted from Buddhism. To actually equal Shinto to Japanese fascism would therefore be a grave mistake. Hitler in Germany tried something similar with Christian churches by germanizing them - luckily time ran out to complete this plan.

So in a way if Toda ever made such a quote it would not really surprise me as one should bear in mind the differences between Shinto and "State Shinto".
The way SGI portrays the events it sounds like some great anti-fascist movement, which it clearly was not as if it had been the two of them, Makiguchi and Toda, would have been executed right away. If SG would have protested against the war crimes Japan had committed this whole idea would make sense - but SGI is clever enough to go down that road.

Makiguchi and Toda were imprisoned for not supporting the war effort which is far fetched from high treason. Questioning the authority and integrity of the state, making public the war crimes would have resulted in treason. Some might argue that the Japanese were not aware of what happened in continental Asia especially China, but thats a myth as it was in Germany. The difference being that the Germans came somewhat clear with their history in an open and public debate in the media and educational system which the Japanese have not been very successful at.

So whatever Toda and Makiguchi were found “guilty” of had nothing to do questioning Shinto or the fascist System in its core at the time. Having said that it must have been harsh to have been imprisoned in Japan of that time on the other hand it would be exaggerated to portray the SG as a sort of anti-fascist movement, which the SGI of today does not say but tries to imply.

Rothaus, the speeches that Nichijew posted were indeed disturbing and fanatical. It's basically just a very emotional appeal to become one with Ikeda. Somehow the notion is just nauseating. I felt the same way when I read Byron Katie's scrambled speech -- "I live in you and I die in you." My thought was, "Hell, no, lady! I don't even know you, and I don't want you in me! Dead or alive, I don't want you in me!" I feel that way about becoming one with Sensei. "I am NOT one with you, Ikeda, you are a money-grubbing egotist, and we are complete strangers!" Ugh, this is just so sickening!

This business of "becoming one" with these greedy guru types, disgusting! If they can get you to think that you are one with them -- then you will give up EVERYTHING to them without hesitation. However, it doesn't go the other way. Ikeda and Katie do not feel like "one" with their followers -- at least not to the point where they'd give anything up for them. Ikeda's thought is, what's yours is his. And what's his is his. He's not going to give you even a piece of gum that he's already chewed.

Linda Johnsons's comments were interesting in light of an earlier discussion on this board about marriage -- and Anthony Elmore's comments about "the Ikeda woman." Now, Linda has commented that she wants to get married. You see from her comments why she hasn't. What man -- no matter how intelligent, successful, charismatic or devoted -- could possibly compete with her idealized vision of Ikeda? As Elmore said about another female acquaintance of his, any man in Linda's life would always come a distant second to Ikeda and SGI. Now, Ms. Johnson may be a very lovely, bright and charming woman -- but what guy wants to be involved with a woman who is obsessed with another man? I'd never want to be with a man who was obsessed with a fantasy-image of another woman.

I think that the speeches that Nichijew posted are also posted on Fraught with Peril's Kempon Hokke blog.

My point about the Shinto -- is that SGI has always told the following story: During World War II. the Japanese government wanted all Japanese, including the temples, to enshrine some Shinto talisman. The government was apparently using Shinto, or their twisted version of it, to encourage Japanese nationalism and support of the war. SGI's story is that the priests were perfectly willing to enshrine Shinto talismans right in the Nichiren temples --- only Toda and Makiguchi had the courage to resist. For which they were jailed under harsh conditions that killed Makiguchi, an old man.

If the letter is real, and correct, though, apparently Toda was willing at some point to cooperate with the military and government authorities at some point, and urge other Soka Gakkai members to. So why did he and Makiguchi go to jail? Did they initially enshrine the talismans -- and then change their minds? Or did they go to jail for something else entirely?

The issue is that SGI has possibly lied about Toda -- he may not have been as uncompromisingly anti-Shinto as SGI insists that he was. It would be like some German politician insisting that he ALWAYS opposed the National Socialist government during World War II -- and then you find some letter he wrote, urging other Germans to cooperate with the Nazis.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2009 03:06AM by tsukimoto.