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Rothaus
Good grief reading that quote in SGbye's comment made me shiver:

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SGBye
Genuine disciples give their all to protect their mentor from malicious attacks, even if they come under fire themselves. They have the spirit to take on persecution to shield their mentor from harm. In contrast, ungrateful individuals who trample on the profound debt they owe their mentor are certain to receive stern retribution in accord with the law of cause and effect. (2/19/10, World Tribune)

How much more self-adulation does it take from that charlatan ????

What a talented ghostwriter! All the SGI buzzwords in one short paragraph! Mentor/disciple, spirt, persecution, harm, ungrateful, debt of gratitude, stern retribution. That writer couldn't fit "victory" or "victorious" in, though. I guess nobody's perfect.

Can anyone please explain to me how Ikeda has been persecuted -- or has ever sacrificed much of anything? Martin Luther King Jr., Gandhi, Aung San Suu Kyi of Myanmar, Nichiren Daishonin...these individuals suffered terrible persecution, and made great sacrifices for the good of others. Ikeda is a pampered billionaire who can go wherever he wants and do anything he wants, and he has a loyal, fanatically devoted staff, eager to satisfy his every wish. When's he ever suffered -- when he had to stay in a hotel that didn't have gold-plated faucets in the bathroom?

Poor man, it must have been just awful!

@tsukimoto:

"Can anyone please explain to me how Ikeda has been persecuted -- or has ever sacrificed much of anything?"

Actually, it is a pretty clever ploy. It plays to the fact that since "Sensei" is unreachable and remote the member (who buys the proposition) feels he or she is playing an important role in protecting the organization (tribe?) from the hostile forces of the outside world. In fact, it might even resonate with those very same people's desire that they themselves would be protected by "Sensei" and by extension, the organization itself. Sort of appealing to the protective instincts of the believer.

The truth be know, I'd be surprised if "Sensei" suffered much more than a paper cut or a cold sore in his "significant" life. I've dealt with CEO's on a number of occasions and I have seen the same behaviors. They rely upon silence and remoteness to substitute for their involvement. By not being there, but being there symbolically they cause their audience to supply it's own preferred model (which in many cases is far more complete than they could ever hope to be). How many community centers had the "President's room" which basically sat empty in preparation of the day when "Sensei can come and spend time with us"...? Which he of never did, but it instead provided a certain wish-fulfillment to the members. Slowly, they just talk themselves into believing that he "actually" is right there with them, suffering along with them and guiding them to their human revolution. (<ack!>. Let's all do two stanza's of "forever sensei" and then a rousing Ay Ay Oh! :) )

Identifying an outside threat, and then suggesting that the membership, out of its gratitude readily throw itself under the bus ties into the Japanese tradition of Kamikaze as well. In fact, in olden times, if you failed or displeased your "master" you were expected to do seppuku (hara kiri) in order to repay your debt if filial piety to him. Of course if he was *really* disappointed with you, he would not allow a second to do a "kaishaku" in which they severed your head in such a way to permit your seishin (spirit) to easily leave your body. Sounds a little bit like Jonestown, and considering we are talking about a cult, it may actually be truer than we might expect.

Wakatta1

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wakatta1
I've dealt with CEO's on a number of occasions and I have seen the same behaviors. They rely upon silence and remoteness to substitute for their involvement. By not being there, but being there symbolically they cause their audience to supply it's own preferred model (which in many cases is far more complete than they could ever hope to be).

Identifying an outside threat, and then suggesting that the membership, out of its gratitude readily throw itself under the bus ties into the Japanese tradition of Kamikaze as well.
Wakatta1

This reminds me of a line I read somewhere, don't remember where -- "No man is a hero to his wife." The context was, that marriage is so difficult --because living with someone, you have to deal with his or her faults, weaknesses, irritating habits, and mistakes every day -- as he or she must live with yours. With someone you never meet -- it's very easy to adore, and hero-worship him or her. You can't really know what they're like -- they're like God or Santa Claus or a movie star. You can just fill in the lines, and imagine that they're anything you wish them to be. Having a crush on a movie star is oh so easy, and so unreal, while trying to work out relationships with real people is damned tough! They're stubborn, willful, moody, and so damned insistent on doing what they want -- instead of what you want! And they say that about you!

The entertainment industry has made a fortune selling fantasy to people -- and so has SGI. The difference is -- the movie ends, and I know that it was just fiction...while I used to go to SGI meetings and I thought it was reality.

People unite if they feel that they have a common enemy -- very old trick. Nikken and the other Nichiren Shoshu priests served that purpose well for a number of years. In the recent World Tribune article it sounded like SGI was just referring to a generalized threat....again, that appeal to fear. There are these awful people out there threatening SGI, and you will suffer "stern retribution" if you don't do everything possible to protect Sensei and SGI! That fear and guilt manipulation again....we can't even tell you who the threat is...or what will happen to you if you don't resist the threat....it's just too horrible to think about! It's like some problems....the anticipation, what you imagine might happen, can be more anxiety-producing than dealing with the actual problem.

It makes me glad to be out of SGI -- and free of all the SGI-produced melodrama. Now, when I want drama, I just go rent a dvd!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2010 10:44AM by tsukimoto.

Well, to be fair, Ikeda did go through some suffering, but it happened ages ago. I'm talking about the war, his tuberculosis, and how he helped his mentor Toda when his business was in financial ruin. It's been very easy for me to remember all of this because he only mentioned it in every single frickin' speech he ever gave in his life! And, here, I have the quotes to prove my point. Enjoy!


When I was young, I gave my all to support and assist Mr. Toda. After going to prison for his convictions, Mr. Toda faced economic difficulties upon his release. I was there for him, both in propagating Buddhism and supporting his business, ready to do whatever was needed. (12/4/09, World Tribune)

When Mr. Toda's businesses failed, I worked tirelessly to support him in paying off the debts. (12/11/09, World Tribune)

I always fought intensely to reply to Mr. Toda. I fought tirelessly with all my heart. (12/25/09, World Tribune)

When Mr. Toda's businesses failed in the turbulent years following WWII, plunging him into enormous debt, I worked wholeheartedly until all of his creditors were repaid. (1/22/10, World Tribune)

I supported Mr. Toda day and night. I dedicated my entire youth to my mentor and the Soka Gakkai. (1/22/10, World Tribune)

I tirelessly supported and assisted Mr. Toda. No disciple has ever cared more for their mentor. (2/5/10, World Tribune)

Even facing the bitterest adversity, when Mr. Toda's businesses fell into dire financial straits, I gave my all to support and protect him, taking on the full brunt of all criticism from society. (March-April 2010, Living Buddhism)

Many individuals who had been deeply indebted to President Toda abruptly turned on him. But I did not waver, not in the least. I prayed earnestly that President Toda could lead our movement, and I fought a desperate, all-out struggle to make that happen. (March-April 2010, Living Buddhism)

As Mr. Toda's disciple, I did my utmost to support and assist him. (March-April 2010, Living Buddhism)

In those days, though Mr. Toda's businesses were in a dire state and he was struggling terribly, he continued to train me without interruption. I dedicated myself wholeheartedly to supporting and serving him. (March-April 2010, Living Buddhism)

It is impossible for me to fully describe in words the joy and honor I feel at having worked alongside such a great mentor as Mr. Toda. I did everything I could do to support and assist him, ready to give my entire life and all my worldly possessions if need be. (2/19/10, World Tribune)


OK, OK, Ikeda, we get it already!!!
This just goes to prove that if you have one issue of the World Tribune or Living Buddhism, you have them all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2010 12:15PM by SGBye.

Hey you guys did you forget Sensei's tuberculosis, his all-nighters for the sake of the members, carrying Toda on his shoulders, his pork and melon soup, his humble beginnings? ;)

does anyone remember when Ikeda linked up with some Rabbi in LA? I remember thinking wow this is great he is reaching out to the Jewish community. I also remember that many Japanese are not educated about the Holocaust. Actually Japan like others has a lot of skeletons in the closet. Does Ikeda really care about the plight of the Jews? Do the members understand their country of origin and nationalism and imperialistic thinking? I doubt it.

Just another PR stunt by and for Ikeda.

Vomit.

I am not to sure on japanese culture only that some things are very different once you get a closer look at it. What I do know is that there are japanese members, at least here in Europe, who leave for same sort of reasons we all here did.

Between the lines of the World Tribune quote I read that its about the enemies of SGI, those who talk 'bad' about SGI, those who publish unfavourable reports etc. ... thats people like us and anyone in the media picking up the issue in a critical manner.

SGI has been going on about the temple like beating on a dead horse for nearly two decades. I guess its now time too look at the 'defectors' . This may sound scary, but SGI is not as powerful (at least in the west) as some might think so - and if they do SGI will finally show its true face .... I wonder when they will start to call for witches to be thrown on the stake.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2010 02:49PM by Rothaus.

You have all been so helpful. I have been reading previous posts from the previous years of this thread. I enjoy learning about all of your experiences, and can certainly relate. I have to tell you that I am in the shock phase. I wanted to believe so much that this group is/was for World Peace. I started to put things together, and in the last two months...I am seeing things with clearer eyes. I also understand that there is something in me that made me want to be apart of a group like the SGI. I want to work on this so I don't feel the need to all at once join some other group on the rebound. I feel like someone who was in a relationship with someone, broke up, and feels some betrayal.

For now, I am keeping my distance from members. I am not accepting calls, and not responding to e-mails. I don't know if this behavior is best, or if I should be nice and answer e-mails, but like someone else mentioned on the boards, I do not want to engage in a dialogue. Does anyone think I owe any of these members anything (like my kindness)? I don't want to be rude, but I am also afraid that if I am kind, I will get guilted into coming to a meeting. I also need to mention that I still am a YWD district leader.

I also want to take down my Gohonzon/Butsudan. Has anyone taken their Gohonzon down by themselves? I like my Gohonzon, but don't like the whole mentor/disciple stuff and the idolization of Ikeda, and the pushiness to get new members.

I remember when I hadn't been to a meeting for 6 months. Some of the other members were shocked that I looked as good as I did especially since I hadn't participated in so long.

@SGBye:

"Well, to be fair, Ikeda did go through some suffering, but it happened ages ago. I'm talking about the war, his tuberculosis, and how he helped his mentor Toda when his business was in financial ruin. It's been very easy for me to remember all of this because he only mentioned it in every single frickin' speech he ever gave in his life! And, here, I have the quotes to prove my point. Enjoy! "

I always wondered how much of his "human revolution" saga actually happened and how much just was an idealized picture he presented to the world to sell the NSA/SGI meme. I doubt seriously if any of the Japanese "vice presidents" would have leaned over in a meeting and said "Say, Daisaku, aren't you just making a lot of that stuff up? I don't remember you doing *anything* like that..." And if any had, would the still be in the leadership 'circle'? He just seemed to always have a story to fit every situation, as if he was just 'borrowing' from other people's life experiences he had heard that had impressed him and then incorporating it into his "story".

I also wonder whether, like the paranoid drug addict, the Japanese leadership (who know full well what they have done in the name of the "faith") might be a just a little worried about repercussions and would then prefer to install some layers of protection for themselves using the lay members around them. Certainly when Ikeda was groping the WD members who were part of his inner circle he had to be worried about angry husbands and perhaps even revenge motivated individuals outraged by the behavior.

Oh, by the way, in the US we had the civil rights and segregation issues of the fifties and sixties. In japan you have the equivalent practice against a social group called the "Buraku" people who have historically been the social outcasts since before the Meiji period and earlier. These were the "unclean" people, butchers, tanners, animal skinners, etc. I used to enjoy raising that point when a Japanese would go into how "bad" the western world was on racial equality and how morally superior the Japanese were. The core problem is that the japanese national registry (Shohon and Tohon), where the government tracks your mother and your father (and you) so if your lineage is questionable all sorts of bad things happen (for example, the police tend to "keep an eye" on you more readily or employers are less eager to employ you). Also, since the Japanese are very Xenophobic other ethnic groups fall into the "Buraku" model such as Koreans and others. That means that they are always something lower than second-class citizens. Unable to own land, etc. It's a pretty sad situation overall and the Japanese try very hard to pretend it isn't there.

Wakatta1

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wakatta1

I also wonder whether, like the paranoid drug addict, the Japanese leadership (who know full well what they have done in the name of the "faith") might be a just a little worried about repercussions and would then prefer to install some layers of protection for themselves using the lay members around them. Wakatta1

This is exactly it! Just like ever other cult in the world. Plus the ends always justify the means, that has nothing to do with 'faith'.

I've been wondering recently about the SGI situation in the west. In Japan SGI is essentially a mafia organisation, very rich, very secretive, links to politicians, business, criminal elements, even the courts and police. In Japan Ikeda is basically Al Capone, and is utterly untouchable.

However I've been trying to understand why SGI hasn't changed its 'tact' in the US and Europe. As far as I'm aware (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) membership in the US and Europe has been pretty much staying static. Now either SGI has realised it will never be able to grow any larger in these areas or is puposefully remaining at such a level.
This could be for a number of reasons, all of which would be made easier by having a relatively small membership because, a) they will be easier to contol and manage, b) less likely to appear on the 'national radar', keeping SGI nice and quiet. These reasons could be, 1) keep just enough members to have official charity tax exempt status, 2) keep a presence in these countries to allow back-door influence of Government officials, 3) have a watchful eye on academics and media organisations which might be critical of SGI, giving them the 'heads up' and time to prepare a counter in advance.
Add to all this the idea of SGI members in US and Europe having their own 'imagined' view of Ikeda, and you could say in the west Ikeda is Kaiser Soze.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2010 08:15PM by DavidM.

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SGBye
Well, to be fair, Ikeda did go through some suffering, but it happened ages ago. I'm talking about the war, his tuberculosis, and how he helped his mentor Toda when his business was in financial ruin. It's been very easy for me to remember all of this because he only mentioned it in every single frickin' speech he ever gave in his life! And, here, I have the quotes to prove my point. Enjoy!

I supported Mr. Toda day and night. I dedicated my entire youth to my mentor and the Soka Gakkai. (1/22/10, World Tribune)

I tirelessly supported and assisted Mr. Toda. No disciple has ever cared more for their mentor. (2/5/10, World Tribune)

OK, OK, Ikeda, we get it already!!!
This just goes to prove that if you have one issue of the World Tribune or Living Buddhism, you have them all.

Yes! The World Tribune and Living Buddhism are like a closed loop, repeating themselves endlessly.

I'm not arguing that Ikeda did not suffer during and after World War II...but let's get a little perspective here. Japan was devastated, both physically and in spirit by its defeat. Homes, schools, businesses, roads and bridges were destroyed, people were homeless, malnourished and jobless. Orphans tried to survive on the streets; young women from respectable backgrounds became prostitutes for the occupying American forces --- just to survive. Was Ikeda's suffering greater than that of other Japanese his age? Did he endure more than Koreans or Chinese his age, whose countries were occupied by the Japanese Imperial Army?

And it's also a good point that Ikeda's contemporaries are not going to say, "Hah -- WE were doing all the work at meetings, while DAISAKU was just flirting with the YWD!"

And as for Japan's racial equality -- Wakatta is right, there isn't any, despite what some Japanese will tell you. A Japanese Women's Division member once showed me some yen, paper money, and pointed out that the man on a bill was a philosopher, Meiji era, who said something like all people are equal under the heavens. She said, "See? People think that the Americans brought us democracy in 1945. That is not true. We had ideas of equality and democracy long before that." Uh huh. And the military dictatorship was just a bad dream?

The reality is that the Japanese treat Amerasians, people with a Japanese mother and American father, like trash. Japanese discriminate against the Burukumin, Japan's untouchable class. During World War II, the Japanese forcibly brought Koreans to Japan to do work that was considered too dirty or dangerous for Japanese. After the war, many of these Koreans were stranded in Japan. Some of their descendants still live in Japan -- without the civil rights that "pure" Japanese have. Have Ikeda, or any other SGI Japan senior leaders ever spoken out regarding Japan's discrimination against Amerasians, Burukumin, and people of Korean ancestry? I doubt it.

An interesting note is that there are some right-wing Japanese websites that want to discredit Ikeda -- and one of the things that they say about him is that he is of Korean ancestry -- which is a great insult in Japan. (I doubt that this could really be true -- if he really were of Korean ancestry, I'm sure it would have been proved by now.)

SGI has been in the United States since after World War II, and yet the SGI-USA director has always been a Japanese man -- George Williams, Fred Zaitsu, Danny Nagashima. After all this time, there is NO American qualified to lead SGI?

SGI's charter says that national chapters of SGI should be autonomous. Again, the reality is quite different. They're not and probably never will be. SGI-USA's senior leaders are handpicked by Ikeda, finances are run by Japan, local chapters study what Tokyo says to study. How is that autonomous?

We had a poster a while back, Commongirl. She was pro SGI and pro Ikeda, and as you'd expect, quite critical of this thread. She says her mother was Japanese, her father American, and the family knew George Williams, the then director of SGI USA (which, back then, was called NSA -- Nichiren Shoshu of America.) She did not like George Williams, saying that he expected women like her mother to wait on him, and that he (Williams) felt that American leaders like her father were incapable of truly understanding Buddhism anyway. Interesting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2010 10:12PM by tsukimoto.