Dear Backnforth:

Some do instantly and some don't [become former members]. Otherwise, good post. Thanks.

Mark

Welcome exmio! And thank you for the youtube link, I really enjoyed listening to it. I've got the Dealing With Difficult People bookmarked to listen to next. I think I need that one.

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Nichijew
Backnforth...

I should probably have said, why not join a more orthodox sect of Nichiren Buddhism, one that more faithfully adheres to the basic tenets of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren. I certainly am not saying, my way is the one true way. What I am saying is that the Gakkai way is not the way of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren. Find another way or you are complicit. This group is entitled, Former Cult Members and Affected Families Soka Gakkai International -- SGI. It is not a forum for current SGI members or even those who support the SGI. Many of us were damaged by the SGI, materially, psychologically, and spiritually. It is an affront to us coming here and praising even one aspect of the SGI. It is like saying, "This is a wonderful apple. There are only several worms in it" or even saying, "This infested apple has some good parts and tasty flesh. Why don't you just cut away the bad part?" I say to you, ditch the rotten apple and go get a clean and pristine apple.

Nichijew, I am bothered by this post for several reasons:

1) It is proselytizing. You didn't mention a specific sect (other than SGI) by name; however, you are directly encouraging someone to identify and join a sect within a specific religion which you did name. I do not believe you are proselytizing any less just because you are addressing an individual who already practices with a Nichiren Buddhist organization.

2) The following command...

"Find another way or you are complicit. This group is entitled, Former Cult Members and Affected Families Soka Gakkai International -- SGI. It is not a forum for current SGI members or even those who support the SGI."

Are you suggesting that Rick Ross doesn't intend for current cult members to participate here if they are sincerely questioning their ties to those groups? If so, why haven't the mods intervened and said so? Logicallly speaking, how is someone supposed to become a "former cult member" if they are barred from participating in a support group like this while they are still involved with the cult?

3) With regard to the following statement:

"Many of us were damaged by the SGI, materially, psychologically, and spiritually. It is an affront to us coming here and praising even one aspect of the SGI."

Personally, I suffer no affront. You do not speak for me. I don't see anyone turning this forum into an SGI fan club. I have little love for the SGI (though I do care for some of its members), and count myself among the "damaged." Even so, I have no objection to hearing someone point out things they liked in SGI. Many of us devoted years…decades…of our lives to it, and can't just flick the entire experience off the fingers of one hand like water! I find SGI's distortions as disturbing as most others here. Still, the main reason I left SGI was the intolerant, arrogant personal behavior of several leaders I knew over the years. With all due respect, Nichijew, the attitude you have expressed in your post would seem to rival the worst of them.

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BeingAdagio

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Nichijew
Backnforth...

I should probably have said, why not join a more orthodox sect of Nichiren Buddhism, one that more faithfully adheres to the basic tenets of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren. I certainly am not saying, my way is the one true way. What I am saying is that the Gakkai way is not the way of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren. Find another way or you are complicit. This group is entitled, Former Cult Members and Affected Families Soka Gakkai International -- SGI. It is not a forum for current SGI members or even those who support the SGI. Many of us were damaged by the SGI, materially, psychologically, and spiritually. It is an affront to us coming here and praising even one aspect of the SGI. It is like saying, "This is a wonderful apple. There are only several worms in it" or even saying, "This infested apple has some good parts and tasty flesh. Why don't you just cut away the bad part?" I say to you, ditch the rotten apple and go get a clean and pristine apple.

Nichijew, I am bothered by this post for several reasons:

1) It is proselytizing. You didn't mention a specific sect (other than SGI) by name; however, you are directly encouraging someone to identify and join a sect within a specific religion which you did name. I do not believe you are proselytizing any less just because you are addressing an individual who already practices with a Nichiren Buddhist organization.

2) The following command...

"Find another way or you are complicit. This group is entitled, Former Cult Members and Affected Families Soka Gakkai International -- SGI. It is not a forum for current SGI members or even those who support the SGI."

Are you suggesting that Rick Ross doesn't intend for current cult members to participate here if they are sincerely questioning their ties to those groups? If so, why haven't the mods intervened and said so? Logicallly speaking, how is someone supposed to become a "former cult member" if they are barred from participating in a support group like this while they are still involved with the cult?

3) With regard to the following statement:

"Many of us were damaged by the SGI, materially, psychologically, and spiritually. It is an affront to us coming here and praising even one aspect of the SGI."

Personally, I suffer no affront. You do not speak for me. I don't see anyone turning this forum into an SGI fan club. I have little love for the SGI (though I do care for some of its members), and count myself among the "damaged." Even so, I have no objection to hearing someone point out things they liked in SGI. Many of us devoted years…decades…of our lives to it, and can't just flick the entire experience off the fingers of one hand like water! I find SGI's distortions as disturbing as most others here. Still, the main reason I left SGI was the intolerant, arrogant personal behavior of several leaders I knew over the years. With all due respect, Nichijew, the attitude you have expressed in your post would seem to rival the worst of them.

You certainly would be better off criticizing the SGI than me. Any praise whatsoever for the Soka Gakkai gives those on the fence pause for thought. Why allow that here? This is the only forum on the internet where one is absolutely free from SGI propaganda. Lets keep it that way. A bit of vigilance is in order. Let me remind you that recently we had an SGI plant here and I was the first to remonstrate with her her before the moderators took her to task. I really don't want this forum turned into a witch hunt or litmus test for those most committed to protecting people from the ravages of the SGI but neither should it devolve into tolerance, even veiled tolerance for the cult.

Nichijew

Thank you Backworth...

I appreciate you taking the time to reply and I can very much relate to what you wrote. I now have to deal with my decision and its good to know I am not the only one in this boat. Cheers! Exmio

@Nichijew, @BeingAdagio

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You certainly would be better off criticizing the SGI than me.....

Just to pull a SGI-ism out of the past here, but "the eyebrow is the closest thing to our eyes but we never can see it directly". Sometimes, being deeply invested in one belief or another prevents you from seeing your own biases. I hope no offense is taken by what I'm about to say.

When I read Nichijew's response I immediately knew where it was headed for. I do agree with BeingAdagio's point. People who come to this board are seeking relief from SGI propaganda and providing alternative but similar things might not be productive. Recall, that when we all started with SGI we didn't know what the organization was about until we had experienced it for ourselves and discovered those shortcomings. In those early days we were fired up with the passion of new converts, and only after a long time did we fully understand what was "under the wraps".

I submit that the same situation exists with any other organization like SGI or it's ilk, and I fully agree that encouragement to simply trade one bucket for another, similar, but somehow unstained (the truth of which only to be understood through the same process we learned about the SGI) may not be productive in this forum.

Like the disclaimer says, actual performance varies, batteries not included.

Respectfully...

Wakatta1

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wakatta1
@Nichijew, @BeingAdagio

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You certainly would be better off criticizing the SGI than me.....

Just to pull a SGI-ism out of the past here, but "the eyebrow is the closest thing to our eyes but we never can see it directly". Sometimes, being deeply invested in one belief or another prevents you from seeing your own biases. I hope no offense is taken by what I'm about to say.

When I read Nichijew's response I immediately knew where it was headed for. I do agree with BeingAdagio's point. People who come to this board are seeking relief from SGI propaganda and providing alternative but similar things might not be productive. Recall, that when we all started with SGI we didn't know what the organization was about until we had experienced it for ourselves and discovered those shortcomings. In those early days we were fired up with the passion of new converts, and only after a long time did we fully understand what was "under the wraps".

I submit that the same situation exists with any other organization like SGI or it's ilk, and I fully agree that encouragement to simply trade one bucket for another, similar, but somehow unstained (the truth of which only to be understood through the same process we learned about the SGI) may not be productive in this forum.

Like the disclaimer says, actual performance varies, batteries not included.

Respectfully...

Wakatta1

Fair enough. Anytime you want to pull the planks out of my eyes, you go right ahead.

Mark

Welcome exmio, you wrote, "I said with all due respect for Daisaku, I am very sorry but I cannot identify myself with me being his disciple and the more you talk about it and the more I don't want to hear about it. I don't understand why we always talk about Daisaku Ikeda's greatness at every meeting instead of teaching members how to get more out of the correct attitude while practicing this buddhism, and I cannot and will never be able to bring my shakubukus to any of these meetings as long as this goes on... After the meeting I left because I said what I had to say and didn't want to talk about it anymore. This Daisaku Ikeda discussion have been going on for years and who am I to want to change that? This is precisely what drove me out of the SGI after 21 years. It was hard to leave at first, but then it became easier. Anyone out there who is contemplating leaving but fears practicing alone: I am here to tell you having an indefinite period of time to practice alone works out just fine. I still have no plans to return to SGI or to even get together with current or former members to chant. I also am not seeking another Buddhist sect. I can already see that, inevitably, organized anything moves away from the original purpose. I continue to make progress in my life in general and when unpleasant stuff happens, as it will to all people in and out of all religious faiths, all I have to do is remain committed to self-improvement, respect for myself and others. I definitely don't need to support meetings that tout the amazing Ikeda. I have written this before, but I have had no problem recognizing his actual accomplishments. I do believe he is worthy of recognition in the larger Buddhist community since he did introduce many to the practice, directly and indirectly. If names like the Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh can be household names, why not Ikeda? If Jack Kornfield can sell lots of books on Buddhism to the American public, why not Ikeda? But this is where it ends. If SGI wants him to be recognized as some quasi-deity, that won't happen. If SGI wants him recognized as some great educator, that won't happen. If SGI wants him recognized as some great humanitarian, that won't happen. If SGI wants him recognized as some great peace activist on par with Gandhi and King, they can forget it. I wonder: Is the devotion to getting him recognition in and out of the organization a way of devaluing the practice? Does SGI in some way lack faith in Nichiren Buddhism to the extent that they have to force a paradigm onto the members? When I joined, Ikeda's importance was about right. I never felt that I was being forced to seek his heart or call myself his disciple. I would have been out the door otherwise. I could invite people to meetings and help guests to join when I felt that the organization was generally a good thing, but around 5 years ago when the MDM began, I lost the ability to do either but my life kept getting better. Finally, like many here I know most SGI members are really nice people. They are not consciously trying to hurt themselves or anyone else. Some of them have really been there for me when personal, professional, and family issues nearly defeated me. Indeed, sometimes I feel bad for criticizing the organization when I remember those kindhearted members who took time to come over, talk, and chant with me to overcome the problem at hand. I will never forget them or stop praying for their happiness and success. I know there are others here who have had similar experiences. However, I cannot allow a few powerful experiences to be the reason I support activities that have become more and more cult-like over the past five years. If I could have just ignored the unpleasant parts that would have been one thing, but that gets pretty hard to do when the MDM is on almost every page of the publications and in the mouth of every leader and many members.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2010 01:05PM by doubtful.

Nichijew quote:

"You certainly would be better off criticizing the SGI than me. Any praise whatsoever for the Soka Gakkai gives those on the fence pause for thought. Why allow that here? This is the only forum on the internet where one is absolutely free from SGI propaganda. Lets keep it that way. A bit of vigilance is in order. Let me remind you that recently we had an SGI plant here and I was the first to remonstrate with her her before the moderators took her to task. I really don't want this forum turned into a witch hunt or litmus test for those most committed to protecting people from the ravages of the SGI but neither should it devolve into tolerance, even veiled tolerance for the cult. "

Wakatta1 quote:

"People who come to this board are seeking relief from SGI propaganda and providing alternative but similar things might not be productive."

Nichijew, I think we are all better off supporting, rather than discounting and trying to eject people who undertake the painful and courageous process of questioning their participation in SGI…whether they are still in the org or not.

I also suspect that displaying the same rigid, exclusionary attitudes that are so rife in SGI is much more likely to push "those on the fence" back into the organization (where there is safety in the familiar), or away from Nichiren Buddhism altogether, than any praise of the SGI. Remember, people get onto the fence (and over it) in spite of being exposed to huge amounts of praise for the SGI on a daily basis. I agree with you that this forum should be a safe haven from SGI propaganda. Even so, I doubt that anyone who has gotten far enough to read or participate in this forum is going to run back to SGI just because some "plant" spouts a little SGI speak.

I would ask you to once again reflect on, and try to appreciate the fact that many of us have literally spent decades in SGI. I was a member for nearly half my life, and even though I left three years ago, I still wrestle with the loss of friends and sangha. Don't get me wrong -- the struggle is well worth it for the growing sense of integrity and freedom from cult thinking that I now enjoy. However, just running out and getting a new gig is not the answer for many of us.

Dear Doubtful,

Thank you for taking the time to welcome me and share your experience. I can relate to your experience and I must honestly say that I am in what feels like a mourning phase since I officially announced here on this forum that I am divorcing the SGI. I also feel disgust and anger. Sad for the sincere members I've met and wondering about Nichiren Daishonin intention? Didn't he warn us to follow the law and not the person? For the longest time I thought that Daisaku Ikeda could not possibly be aware, support or behind all of these activities which have been going on if he is indeed so wise, sincere and so good ? Why would he let this go on if he was ? Is that what Josei Toda tought him or did he misunderstand...? Did something happen to him or was he always like that ? I do feel bad for all those good people who want to believe, who do believe and give it all they've got. Should I warn them, tell them? No, I think not, they would not listen to me but I will if they ask me...

Fortunately I spent most of my 25 year practice trying to improve my gongyo and developing the right attitude during daimoku. Most of what Daisaku wrote was good but a lot of it had been written before in other words by other writers and philosophers. Because I moved a lot and never got hooked on any particular group for very long, not even Patrick Duffy's group in WLA! I had to stand on my own, study alone and follow my own heart most of the time although it was not always easy nor by choice but it is now helping me to disconnect completely without guilt knowing that it was not me, nor a bad attitude that kept me away from the SGI groups but my lack of conviction in them... The only activity I really enjoyed was going to those YMD 6am morning gongyo in Santa Monica, CA when I started in 1983 (it was NSA), or attending those energetic daimoku tozos where I didn't have to talk or listen to long speeches. It's going to be a while before I get over this break up, but I know this too will pass. It's been helpful to me sharing my experience with you and I thank you for your interest and support. Cheers! Exmio

Buddhism and Sects [www.youtube.com]