@BeingAdagio

I agree.

@Being Adagio,

I think it is hard to stop the Gakkai speak, especially after 20-plus years, I still speak that way and I have not been to a meeting in over a year, I sometimes have to go back and erase something I have written to post because I know it sounds very Gakkaish.

Such is the way of cults and getting over being in one , the behavior and verbiage is hard to shake. I think the forum is very helpful for new people finding their way out of the cult mentality , but a little discouraging for those who may want to leave the Gakkai cult and keep the Buddhism.

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Morgaine
@Being Adagio,

I think it is hard to stop the Gakkai speak, especially after 20-plus years, I still speak that way and I have not been to a meeting in over a year, I sometimes have to go back and erase something I have written to post because I know it sounds very Gakkaish.

Such is the way of cults and getting over being in one , the behavior and verbiage is hard to shake. I think the forum is very helpful for new people finding their way out of the cult mentality , but a little discouraging for those who may want to leave the Gakkai cult and keep the Buddhism.

@Morgaine,

I agree. I left SGI almost three years ago (after almost 30 years), but chose to continue practicing independently. I lapse into SGI-speak myself sometimes, and do not fault Backnforth for it. When I do it, I want it called to my attention. I also feel it's important to point it out when it crops up in a forum that is being read by people of diverse viewpoints and varying levels of knowledge about SGI and Buddhism generally.

It's so easy to convince ourselves that we are just innocently passing along something we find valuable in our own lives, and so difficult to look squarely at the "karmic brownie points" we are quietly, almost imperceptibly counting up in the backs of our minds, or confront the fear of "karmic retribution" for criticizing SGI that nips, like a determined little dog, at our hearts and minds from the dark places within ourselves where SGI-think still battles for dominance. The biggest challenge, for me, is sharing the practice without that SGI "what's in it for me" agenda running silently in the background like a computer virus.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2010 03:45AM by BeingAdagio.

@BeingAdagio

You said:

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It's so easy to convince ourselves that we are just innocently passing along something we find valuable in our own lives, and so difficult to look squarely at the "karmic brownie points" we are quietly, almost imperceptibly counting up in the backs of our minds, or confront the fear of "karmic retribution" for criticizing SGI that nips, like a determined little dog, at our hearts and minds from the dark places within ourselves where SGI-think still battles for dominance.

You are making my point for me. Being immersed in the "Cult" we all were willing accomplices to the misleading dogma. Freeing ourselves from it involves challenging the "truths" that our cult-conditioned minds produce in the face of other people's experiences. Just like what would happen at a district meeting, everyone would crowd around the new person hoping to persuade them to make the decision to join. No harm in that, except... when they would start asking questions and talking about their problems, the members would begin giving "learned responses" that would reinforce the validity of the teaching and SGI. Everyone gave "guidance" and the longer you practiced, the more that "guidance" sounded the same. "You can definitely change your karma by chanting", "do activities and you will earn blessings", "your problems are due to the ten worlds and your karma", etc.

I guess you can look at if from a different perspective as well. Each of us at one point or another adopted the SGI dogma as the "actual truth". That is why insane things like likening Ikea to Ghandi could go past without us batting an eyelash. Everything that disagreed with the dogma then became an exception, with the actual truth being the SGI view. That being the case, the Cult perspective inserted itself into our lives and minds as the "real truth about life". Now, when we challenge this mind-set we find ourselves trying to pry those mis-beliefs out of the floorboards of our reality, and it is no accident that the stuff creeps in.

Questioning the SGI point of view should not be a case of contradicting the "essential law of the universe", it should be a case of pointing out that if it is the "essential law of the universe", how come it is inconsistent? And why does the organization want to shut down discussion about those "critical elements" of the teaching?

Who here believes that if a vote were taken today of all SGI members world-wide, Ikea would be acclaimed as Buddha? He might score high because many people have been conditioned by the Cult to regard him as being "the one" but I doubt he'd even get 60%.

Wakatta

This is a great discussion, and I've enjoyed reading these posts. My feeling is that Morgaine, Doubtful, and Backnforth have spoken from a caring heart, feeling that chanting is valuable, and beneficial. They may be concerned that I'll have regrets if I give it up permanently.

Some posters are saying, then, okay, maybe you really won't get "stuff," "benefits" and protection if you chant -- but you will get "a higher life condition," and "reveal your Buddha nature." Okay, "high life condition," and "Buddha nature," are terms that I heard at SGI meetings, but what do they really mean? That I can be happy, at peace, compassionate and sensible even when everything is going badly?

So when I chanted a lot, was I like this -- happy, wise, kind, at peace -- in challenging situations? Sometimes I was, sometimes I wasn't. I knew a lot of people in SGI, who chanted hours a day, and did not seem to be like this -- and yet, maybe they'd have been worse if they had not been chanting.

Now that I'm not chanting? Well, life has been pretty smooth lately. Oh, the usual ups and downs but nothing catastrophic. So will I fall apart when a crisis comes up? Maybe. Maybe not.

The suggestion that I might seems like more of SGI's fear-based propaganda: leave SGI and your life will go to hell in a handbasket. Stop chanting and you will suffer from a "low life condition." This fearful fortunetelling mentality is something that I hated in SGI. Can fear create genuine spirituality? I don't think so, and yet religions use fear as whip to get people to practice. "You won't attain a high life condition, or Buddhahood" isn't as bad a threat as "You'll go to hell," but both are threats: Do what we say or you will suffer -- or fail to get something wonderful (heaven or Buddhahood.)

I want to say welcome to Tibbs - your post from the 10th made me laugh. I can relate to what you said.

And to everyone, I will try to watch for the Gakkai talk, but I am not sure how to do that. Nichiren talks quite a bit about Buddhahood; it's not a Gakkai thing. I've seen the 'actual proof' (oops) of this life condition difference many, many times. I don't think most of us are trying to say that Nichiren Buddhism is a cult practice, but the Gakkai - either has always been, or is becoming more and more - a personality cult of sorts primarily due to idolizing President Ikeda. Thinking back, it was always there. I was in Hawaii in '85; a pretty new member and participated in the parade but when the people were going starry eyed over this man that I wasn't very familiar with, I wanted to head over to the beach instead. It was much more interesting and 'amazing' to me than some short Japanese guy. It's just not in me to idolize someone and I'm not really that inclined to have a mentor at all. It should have been a red flag, but I was young and I was experiencing that higher life condition for the first time - and it felt great.

So, talking about Buddhahood and the higher life condition from chanting, is Buddhism talk to me . . . . . perhaps the real objection is to warning someone about backsliding, promising them the world from their chanting; that sort of thing. I hope I can stear clear of that.

I don't think that people should necessarily avoid "gakkai talk." Maybe we should be talking about it more. Those of us who were members for years, were immersed in it -- well, as a fish is in water. What I want to do is look at the gakkai language, all those phrases, and buzzwords that I used for years without really thinking about them -- and think about them. What do I mean when I think about karmic retribution, attaining Buddhahood, getting benefit, making a good cause/bad cause, being in rhythm with myoho, having a high or low life condition? Words were one way that I was manipulated into certain thought patterns, feelings, and actions. So if I look at the words, hopefully I can see and undo that manipulation. Isn't that Buddhist, too? Right thought, right thinking?

Words are so powerful. Why do we refer to our friend Daisaku as "President" Ikeda. Presidents are elected for a set period. Who elected him? Nobody. He is dictator for life, but "Dictator" Ikeda wouldn't play. "President" makes him sound grand, historic...and democratic, which he's not! I am trying to avoid even referring to him as "President Ikeda." Why can't I refer to him as Daisaku? He's human....so am I. The idea even seems strange, almost naughty to me...which tells me that I've still got some of that SGI conditioning stuck in the brain.

Backnforth, I think we have more in common than not. If I'd been in Hawaii, I would totally have gone to the beach rather than to see Shorty mesmerize the masses.

Morgaine, Backnforth, I'm necessarily saying reject Buddhism either....maybe in the end, I will...or maybe I won't. I think that what I'm trying to do is look at how I think about Buddhism, SGI, chanting...ask myself if what I am thinking is accurate and realistic. If I cannot know if something is real -- is it beneficial or hurtful -- and why do I think it's helpful or not? I think that if a philosophy or practice is valid, it stands up to this kind of questioning. This questioning could lead me back to Buddhism some day, or away from it...I guess I just have to keep an open mind.

Sorry, in the previous post, I really meant to say: "I'm not necessarily saying, reject Buddhism either." Bad proofreading!

Hi all,

First I was remiss in not welcoming Tibbs to the forum, welcome Tibbs.


@BeingAdagio, yes , I agree it is important for us to help each other out with the deprogramming and I completely see your point and where you were coming from. I lapse into the SGI speak still too. So thanks .

@Tsukimoto: I think that is a great idea to deconstruct Gakkai speak and see what we were told it meant and what it REALLy means, I remember when I first started chanting I was told to "fight for my members" and I had a real problem with that, I did not understand why a movement for peace would require me to "fight" for anything.

@Wakatta, I see some of your point, I must say though , I was never on board with the Ghandi , King , Ikeda thing and told as many people as I could that it was/is ludicrous. But yes, most of the SGI dogma I did agree with and follow, it is hard to deprogram yourself. I think if they took a vote and said that Mr. Ikeda was a Buddha/second-coming of Jesus/Zeus all rolled up in one, much more than 60% of the SGI worldwide would vote yes, their brainwashing is in overdrive.

Hope everyone had a good weekend. Peace, Morgaine.

I am a long-time SGI member who withdrew from active practice for a number of years, but returned a couple years ago. I really appreciate your thoughtful comments. You bring up many questions that I've had for a long time, but was afraid to voice to fellow member, since I did not want to negatively affect their practice and tried to express to leaders one on one, but they did not seem to fully understand the problems I was having. I hope to share more later.