@ tsukimoto:

I remember that meeting in 1993 very well, it was simulcast all over the US,many members did react, when he made fun of Mr. Williams many of the older members just got up and walked out. I remember thinking it was really bizarre , I think that was the last time we saw Mr. Williams in his capacity of leader of NSA.

Morgaine, I remember car-pooling to another city to go see the simulcast, and I remember all the excitement over Ikeda's visit....I remember nothing of the simulcast itself. I don't remember any of our leaders reacting to Ikeda's ridicule of George Williams. In other videos, I remember him ridiculing Eichi Wada, another senior leader. I thought that was mean; my fellow group members just laughed and said, "Oh, it's just friendly teasing." To me, it just sounded like the "joking" had a nasty edge to it.

Ikeda "joked" that Mr. Williams was playing his trumpet, not noticing that everyone had left the auditorium. Maybe his way of saying, "Poor clueless George! He thinks that people are still paying attention to him --- but he's history."

I'd heard that in the latest installment of "The New Human Revolution," there's supposed to be a revelation about the character who is really meant to be George Williams...that he betrayed SGI. Anyone hear anything about that?

@tsukimoto, you wrote to Morgaine, "I'm in a skeptical mood these days, and maybe it is because I was too trusting when I was in SGI. At this point, I think that chanting seems to work because we expect it to, and because chanting anything causes neurological changes in the brain. You believe otherwise. As with my Christian friends, I just accept that people believe different things." I have read the previous posts. I am aware of some studies. I accept that I may be deluding myself. But like Morgaine I do believe in the power of chanting NMRK to the Gohonzon and the idea of so many things being a coincidence just fails to ring true. I have spent enough time around devout religious believers(non-Buddhist) who gain a lot of meaning and encouragement from their faith. SGI calls that actual proof or benefit. Are they all wrong? Maybe they are but not because science says so. Even scientists indicate that science cannot explain everything, or lots of things. Studies will constantly show how even something as wonderful as love can be attributed to survival instincts, to brain waves, to blah-blah-blah. I ask, is that what you actually want to believe about your relationship with your child, your parents, your husband, your wife, your partner, yourself, your world? Is that mentality really liberating? Does that perspective make your life better? have spent enough time around the scientifically-minded to know they don't seem as happy as the believers. All of you who think you are enlightened because you read some study somewhere about participants in organized religion, brainwaves, conditioning, evolution, or the difference between high fructose corn syrup and sugar are welcome to view and experience the world with your supposed hard evidence. Perhaps all the good things that have happened to me since I started chanting over 21 yrs ago have another explanation, but no one on this message board has it. I don't expect chanting to deliver the results as I demand them all the time, but sometimes my relationship to the objective takes on greater meaning which often allows me to examine my causes, effects, expectations. patterns, and environment. Nevertheless, I realize that when even this potentially transformative approach is marketed as an LGAT or a cult I may no longer benefit.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2010 12:30PM by doubtful.

@tsukimoto, you wrote, "I don't remember any of our leaders reacting to Ikeda's ridicule of George Williams. In other videos, I remember him ridiculing Eichi Wada, another senior leader. I thought that was mean; my fellow group members just laughed and said, "Oh, it's just friendly teasing." To me, it just sounded like the "joking" had a nasty edge to it." This was one of the things that drove me away from a totally favorable impression of Ikeda and from the SGI eventually: his supposedly humorous put-downs of leaders meant to be understood as the "rapport" between them. I wrote this way back in these pages but I will state it again. That kind of humor is only acceptable if it works both ways. Isn't that what a "rapport" is?What would have happened if one of the leaders ripped on Ikeda's height, his bad poetry, his writing style in The Human Revolution, his mannerisms, or his meeting with Polly Toynbee? I think I know the answer: It would NEVER happen before or away from the cameras. That's what makes it mean-spirited, not the behavior of someone whom EVERYONE should declare the most enlightened Buddhist ever.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2010 12:48PM by doubtful.

Quote
doubtful
@tsukimoto, you wrote to Morgaine, "I'm in a skeptical mood these days, and maybe it is because I was too trusting when I was in SGI. At this point, I think that chanting seems to work because we expect it to, and because chanting anything causes neurological changes in the brain.

But like Morgaine I do believe in the power of chanting NMRK to the Gohonzon and the idea of so many things being a coincidence just fails to ring true. I have spent enough time around devout religious believers(non-Buddhist) who gain a lot of meaning and encouragement from their faith. SGI calls that actual proof or benefit. Are they all wrong? Maybe they are but not because science says so. Even scientists indicate that science cannot explain everything, or lots of things. Studies will constantly show how even something as wonderful as love can be attributed to survival instincts, to brain waves, to blah-blah-blah. I ask, is that what you actually want to believe about your relationship with your child, your parents, your husband, your wife, your partner, yourself, your world? Is that mentality really liberating? Does that perspective make your life better? have spent enough time around the scientifically-minded to know they don't seem as happy as the believers.

Indeed, life is a great mystery and there are many things we can't explain -- either through science or religion.

The scientifically-minded don't seem as happy as believers? Isn't that a bit subjective on your part? In my experience, belief can degenerate into superstition, which can make people feel guilty and fearful. I have not chanted for a few months, and I feel happier, calmer and more focused than I did when I was chanting. I focus more on appreciating what I have, rather than thinking so much about trying to get what I don't.

I am not so analytical as to think, "Hmm, this person harmonizes my brain waves, or makes my brain produce more serotonin," when I'm with someone I love! Heavens, do I sound like a robot? Certainly, I am aware that my reactions to someone could be about survival instincts, hormones, or whatever -- but that's not really what I'm thinking about when I'm with the person. I just enjoy being with them!

What I'm advocating is balance. Living life purely on the basis of logic would be dull. Making decisions totally on the basis of whether it makes you feel good would be disastrous.

Some of my Christian friends say that they experience peace, joy and changes in their lives through their prayer to, and faith in Christ. Does that mean we should all become Christians? Many Muslims would also say the same about their faith in Islam. Nichijew would say that we should all become Kempon Hokke members to experience true faith, joy and actual proof. So, at this point, I say, "If you are happy in your religious practice and you aren't hurting anyone, fine. I'm happy for you, but I don't feel the need to take up your religion." Are you right, am I right, are they right? Who knows.

My main complaint with gongyo and daimoku, is that SGI uses the feelings that people get from their chanting -- and uses these feelings to manipulate people. People may feel more open and receptive to new ideas if they've chanted, so SGI pushes their own ideas like mentor/disciple at meetings. People may give SGI credit for the effects of chanting -- so SGI pushes the mentality of "You owe SGI bigtime."

Doubtful and Tsukimoto,

Tsuikimoto from your last paragraph I get that the issue you have is not with "gongyo and daimoku" it is with cult manipulative behavior by the SGI. I think all of us on this forum are here for that same reason, to expose the cult behavior. It is important though to point out that Buddhism existed long before the SGI and it will exist long after the SGI is a distant memory. Our journey to Buddhism and intention was pure as is Buddhism, all cults take whatever theology or" systems of thought" that are popular and bend them for their own uses, it becomes our right or responsibility to clarify the teachings but not lose our faith, if we lose hope and faith that is a tragedy.

@tsukimoto, You wrote, "Some of my Christian friends say that they experience peace, joy and changes in their lives through their prayer to, and faith in Christ. Does that mean we should all become Christians? Many Muslims would also say the same about their faith in Islam. Nichijew would say that we should all become Kempon Hokke members to experience true faith, joy and actual proof. So, at this point, I say, "If you are happy in your religious practice and you aren't hurting anyone, fine. I'm happy for you, but I don't feel the need to take up your religion." Are you right, am I right, are they right? Who knows. My main complaint with gongyo and daimoku, is that SGI uses the feelings that people get from their chanting -- and uses these feelings to manipulate people. People may feel more open and receptive to new ideas if they've chanted, so SGI pushes their own ideas like mentor/disciple at meetings. People may give SGI credit for the effects of chanting -- so SGI pushes the mentality of "You owe SGI bigtime."
Like you I too have been happier since leaving SGI and in leaving the mentality that believes wholeheartedly in the power of only one faith. I see way too much evidence that perhaps faith is all that counts, whether that's faith in your particular religion, science, common sense, superstition, or just plain old faith in self-improvement. I agree with you that, "belief can degenerate into superstition, which can make people feel guilty and fearful." This has happened to me before and during SGI, but less and less now. In fact, sometimes I would like to try to living without my practice as an experiment. At times I suspect there might be something possibly unhealthy about having this consistent practice and then not feeling right if I skimp on it occasionally. Then I remember the times in my life when I did in fact not practice consistently and the overall quality of my attitude, my personality, and my ability to handle setback with equanimity did diminish substantially. In short, my unintended experiment showed the positive effect of my practice in quantifiable and unquantifiable ways. I envy those who can experience life with less expectation and greater joy, with more faith in something minus the superstition, with greater freedom and serenity without all the self-consciousness, worry, and planning. I don't know many who can but there appear to be some who do. I don't think SGI deliberately capitalizes on these basic human needs. I think our needs make organizations like SGI and LGATs possible. Is it possible that some people actually benefited from snake-oil?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2010 11:38AM by doubtful.

Dear doubtful,

Your words reallly touch me. I tried the same experiment you with not chanting a few years ago and had the same response. Yes, some people did benefit from the snake-oil, the people who sold it! LOL.

FOR SURE – flashback – I guess I was lucky practicing for several years without the SG / NS juggernaut “guiding me to enlightenment” because as we have all learned we can’t do anything without our divine mentor in chief IKEDA and his able minions of the SGI!!! The meetings of late have been like attending a AA meeting – just about every experience one way or another gravitates to their MASTER IKEDA. WOW so much power from just one enlighten mentor IKEDA knows all and sees all.

Here I am, not having chanted in months. Two situations came up. One was a problem that could have caused me a great deal of trouble and inconvenience if I had not been very lucky. I called up one person that I thought might be able to help -- and the timing was interesting. I caught him just as he'd come into his office to pick up a folder that he needed. If I'd called a few minutes earlier or later, I'd have missed him, as all I had was the office number and it was a holiday weekend. But no, I reached him, he was willing to help, though he wasn't obligated to do so. The problem was fixed, and everything is fine.

The second thing has been a long-term work problem, some changes that my co-workers and I want and have been advocating for. We have been trying so hard to convince our bosses, with no results. This has gone on for years, with several different bosses. Our organization is doing okay, but we could be doing so much better. You'd think that the bosses would be interested in at least considering our plan, but no, they're conservative and don't want to change anything.

Our boss called us all in yesterday -- and he is willing to try our plan! We're so excited! This plan actually creates extra work for us, but we're happy to do it to get the results we want.

Now, if I'd been chanting, I would have said that these two things were experiences, caused by my chanting. But I haven't been chanting.

Did we benefit from SGI's brand of snake oil? I don't know. Certainly, before SGI, I was a pessimist, never expecting anything to work out for me. Maybe now, on some level, I've learned to believe that I can make things work out? Maybe I'm noticing more cause and effect in my life? Am I just suffering from confirmation bias, where you see what you expect to see? Experiencing the benefits of all those years of practice? Fate? Dumb luck? Or maybe it's that laminated picture of President Ikeda that I wear on a string around my neck next to my heart. Not!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2010 04:42AM by tsukimoto.