Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
Nichijew
()
Date: January 23, 2010 07:45AM
Quote
DavidM
Hi,
To wayfarerfree. I'm sorry for PM'ing you so much, the last few days I've not been working so mind has been in overdrive, I've thought about little else. It was almost midnight the other night before I got something to eat for dinner. I was anxious and overly eager to talk to people and try and find out as much as I could at this time. I will not PM you again.
The person who I said I was shakabuku'ing has been with me for some time over the last couple of days, its not been fun at some points but they have really helped me and helped me talk things through. Their intellect and objective arguments have been a blessing.
Its totally true, I haven't officially 'left'. I've left in my heart and my mind. Basically because I can no longer justify (or more accurately, as I would have in the past, 'make allowances for') or explain the financial secrecy, leadership secrecy, political connections, Ikeda-ism (which in my area can only be found on the interenet), hatred towards Nichiren Shoshu (and all other Buddhists), the 'broken' system of 'leaders', over advertisement, and just plain 'controlling' nature.
After readng the person's post on here last night about the daigohonzon I woudn up investigating that. The person I mentioned was also here with me. I consider that I 'know' (as in have read regardless of what level to which I've understood) the Gosho and the Lotus Sutra. But I couldn't even say if the new SGI gongyo book still had the prayer to the daigohonzon. I guess I had been on autopilot without an ounce of inquiry in my mind when it came to that section. Don't know what that suggests or proves but it was a hell of a slap in the face.
After reading up on various other Nichiren schools of thought I now think the very idea of a 'daigohonzon' (never mind wether its authentic or not or eve if it has 'more power' or not) is a load of crap. I wish I could be more angry about that but as I say its not something I ever worried about, in my 5 yrs in SGI I haven't heard it mentioned once. Except in the SGI prayer book. God, I sound like a freaking idiot. (not sure what the policy on swearing is here btw) This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, I feel like now that my mind is not concerned with automatically defending SGI (as I was chronically guilty of doing in teh past) I am seeing everything with new eyes.
Still on the topic of the gohonzon, I remember getting really pissed off when I saw images of gohonzons on websites and in youtube videos. I can't explain why, obviously I had heard in SGI that the gohonzon should be respected and revered but my emotional response was too strong. Maybe that is evidence of some kind of brainwashing, or maybe manipulation at least. I do still feel a gohonzon should be respected, but now I feel its great that people are hosting high res images on their websites for people to print off for free. The absolute opposite of SGI's attitude. Someone (of one of the other Nichiren sects) as a bunch of videos of various goohonzon's on youtube. One is a sort of animation cartoon one with nam myoho renge kyo down the middle and then little pictures of Shakyamuni, Many Treasure Buddha and Nichiren. I would have been literally enraged about this before but I felt... happy, seeing it, its hard to explain. It just seemed liberated, open, wonderful.
There is a big meeting here on Sunday which I have told a few people I am going to. Feels strange. I guess I'm gonna get a phone call after it. As I said I slipped off the map before for about 8 months without much trouble, but there is one person who will definately call me on this occasion. I guess its hard because I genuinely like this persona and genuinely feel they know alot about buddhism (rather than just SGI or Ikeda). I guess it would be easier if they not such a nice guy. I suppose I can only lay out my reasons for wishing to leave, and see what the say. I imagine they will try and bring me round and defeat my arguments, that wont work... what they will say then I have no idea. Maybe they will get angry, abusive, start saying I'm not buddhist or I'm bringing evil on myself. I don't know. I guess thats what I'm most scared of, what happens in the conversation when there's no ligitimate argument left, either it'll get ugly or they'll hang up. There aren't really any other members I'm close to, and the ones I am a bit close to are not the 'shout in your face and break your spirit' types.
Anyway, I do understand I (somewhat) hijacked this thread and took up alot of people time with my incessent PMs. I am sorry for that, I know now that I have been the lucky one, my problems are trivial compared to what other people must be going through right now. I've found other forums where hopefully I can speak to people about my practice in the future.
I know many of you will not trust me after reading this whirlwind of feeling from the last few days, but I feel as though I was 'waiting' for something to challange me over SGI, I couldn't do it on ym own volition and it took the person I was trying to shakabuku, 'the interent' and my own humility and honesty to let me free my mind.
Not fishing for sympathy but I know I may be seen as a pariah on this forum (for not suffering to a great deal in SGI) and I will also be seen as a pariah in SGI circles. I am very lucky I have my own close friends who are not in SGI.
But I guess I may still be seen as SGI's internet James Bond (or maybe Keyser Soze would be a better analogy) and had only come here to 'infiltrate' this space. Theres no way I can change people's minds on that, and I will not register under a different name or anything like that. If in the future I do feel as though I have something to add then it will be under this name.
To everyone who took the time to speak with me after the arrogant way I introduced myself here I want to say thank you. To everyone who PM'd me with criticism and advice I can't say thank you enough.
This has been an insane few days for me (and its not over) my brain feels like its been through the mill.
I don't know what to say to end this, just, thank you.
Dear David:
I apologize for misunderstanding your intentions. You are much better off. I don't recommend that you go to one last meeting but my last meeting [a large (Zone) meeting] was the straw that broke the camel's back. I too was having profound doubts about the SGI but couldn't quite pull the trigger. At that last meeting, the Lotus Sutra wasn't mentioned once nor was Shakyamuni Buddha. Nichiren Daishonin and Namu Myoho renge kyo were mentioned [maybe] twice and Ikeda was mentioned a hundred times. I said to wife, then and there, this is our last meeting, are you OK with that, and she was with me one hundred percent. I'm not going to tell you about my ups and downs since then but in the long run, my wife and I are in a much better place and happy.
Congratulations. Break out the Champagne!!!
Nichijew
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
DavidM
()
Date: January 23, 2010 08:16AM
To Nichijew
Hi,
There is absolutely no apology necessary. I totally understand how I must have first appeared, and the justified response of suspicion and wanting to keep this forum as a safe haven for people to speak openly.
Dam, that meeting sounds crazy! The meetings near me are not like that but I will not be going to it anyway. :)
I'm glad to hear you and your wife are doing well, things can only get better eh?
Thanks again for your kind words. :)
Hi,
There is absolutely no apology necessary. I totally understand how I must have first appeared, and the justified response of suspicion and wanting to keep this forum as a safe haven for people to speak openly.
Dam, that meeting sounds crazy! The meetings near me are not like that but I will not be going to it anyway. :)
I'm glad to hear you and your wife are doing well, things can only get better eh?
Thanks again for your kind words. :)
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
DrJesusEsq
()
Date: January 23, 2010 08:30AM
Hey David,
The few times when we did PM each other, you didn't come across as arrogant. Confused? Maybe.
Perhaps, and I am just guessing, part of the reason is that you saw some shady things the org has done or has said unofficially (or not) that made you wonder what's going on and you pushed it someplace far from your mind.
In fact, the time I learned the connection between Ikeda and New Komeito was 4 years ago in China. Even then, knowing that I even tried to defend SGI and even said at worst it is a benign cult. It was then recently I saw how "benign" it was that made me leave. It was then all the scattered pieces of the puzzle began to fit.
I'm glad you left. You will feel better for it and avoid any future trouble. Of course, if you decide to practice Buddhism, whether it is Nichiren or Tibetan or Sri Lankan, there will be no promises of getting better cars or supermodels as your girlfriends.
That being said, here is my personal Zen quote: You can't meditate for a car. At least, you can calm yourself and control mind. That is so you won't go too crazy spending money on booze Friday with your friends so you can have enough left over.
Do feel free to post anytime. It took me 12 hours or so to get my posts online when I first started.
The few times when we did PM each other, you didn't come across as arrogant. Confused? Maybe.
Perhaps, and I am just guessing, part of the reason is that you saw some shady things the org has done or has said unofficially (or not) that made you wonder what's going on and you pushed it someplace far from your mind.
In fact, the time I learned the connection between Ikeda and New Komeito was 4 years ago in China. Even then, knowing that I even tried to defend SGI and even said at worst it is a benign cult. It was then recently I saw how "benign" it was that made me leave. It was then all the scattered pieces of the puzzle began to fit.
I'm glad you left. You will feel better for it and avoid any future trouble. Of course, if you decide to practice Buddhism, whether it is Nichiren or Tibetan or Sri Lankan, there will be no promises of getting better cars or supermodels as your girlfriends.
That being said, here is my personal Zen quote: You can't meditate for a car. At least, you can calm yourself and control mind. That is so you won't go too crazy spending money on booze Friday with your friends so you can have enough left over.
Do feel free to post anytime. It took me 12 hours or so to get my posts online when I first started.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
Nichijew
()
Date: January 23, 2010 09:30AM
Quote
DavidM
To Nichijew
Hi,
There is absolutely no apology necessary. I totally understand how I must have first appeared, and the justified response of suspicion and wanting to keep this forum as a safe haven for people to speak openly.
Dam, that meeting sounds crazy! The meetings near me are not like that but I will not be going to it anyway. :)
I'm glad to hear you and your wife are doing well, things can only get better eh?
Thanks again for your kind words. :)
Of course, whether in or out of SGI that depends on us. However, you will not be shackled by erroneous teachings and harmful practices so you can at least take off. With a good GPS or internal radar device, you will reach your destination without fail.
Nichijew
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 09:32AM by Nichijew.
Re: Daisaku Ikeda, Alan Simmons, kenzoku2, "I will protect the SGI"
Posted by:
DavidM
()
Date: January 23, 2010 10:09PM
Quote
The Anticult
That is why Ikeda manufactured such paranoia and fear of the imagined "enemies" of the Soka Gakkai.
Ikead knows if you make people afraid, they will do what they are told, and seek a strong leader.
Ikeda also knows, if you manufacture some terrible "enemy", then that makes your followers circle the wagons and feel like they are "protecting the SGI" from the imagined enemies.
It also shields their minds to outside criticism, as they just blame it on an enemy. The more criticism they get, the stronger the imagined SGI persecution belief becomes.
The more an enemy is just imagined, the better as well for SGI.
Daisaku Ikeda is quite a brilliant global cult leader. He's not subtle, but he's been able to make billions of dollars, and manage quite a large group of disciples using fairly standard and crude techniques of mass persuasion.
I think this is totally true. Being 'inside' SGI, any and all criticism is automatically seen as coming form 'the enemies' of SGI rather than independent critical thinkers. I guess its the desire to cling to the safety of SGI that makes it so easy to do.
Re: Daisaku Ikeda, Alan Simmons, kenzoku2, "I will protect the SGI"
Posted by:
TheVoid
()
Date: January 23, 2010 11:56PM
Quote
DavidMQuote
The Anticult
That is why Ikeda manufactured such paranoia and fear of the imagined "enemies" of the Soka Gakkai.
Ikead knows if you make people afraid, they will do what they are told, and seek a strong leader.
Ikeda also knows, if you manufacture some terrible "enemy", then that makes your followers circle the wagons and feel like they are "protecting the SGI" from the imagined enemies.
It also shields their minds to outside criticism, as they just blame it on an enemy. The more criticism they get, the stronger the imagined SGI persecution belief becomes.
The more an enemy is just imagined, the better as well for SGI.
Daisaku Ikeda is quite a brilliant global cult leader. He's not subtle, but he's been able to make billions of dollars, and manage quite a large group of disciples using fairly standard and crude techniques of mass persuasion.
I think this is totally true. Being 'inside' SGI, any and all criticism is automatically seen as coming form 'the enemies' of SGI rather than independent critical thinkers. I guess its the desire to cling to the safety of SGI that makes it so easy to do.
Thats exactly how they work, i remember going to some all day meeting, some hi ranking UK leaders where there Samuels and another who i can't recall the name of but was Japanese, they spent the whole day raving on about the Master/Disciple BS and spent most of the rest of the time making fun out of other forms of Buddhism.
Also when I was dipping in and out of SGI, i had decided to purchase a Gohonzon from Ebay a Nittatsu. I told this to one of the leaders in my area, he explained he was shocked and upset, and baffled that someone would want to sell Gohonzon, his exact words about the person who sold this Gohonzon were, I cannnot believe that they don't care about there life anymore. I was also scolded for questioning the Ikeda worship and told that I was turning my back on the Daishonin.
I remember the first time i foolishly let some of the Soka-bots come to my flat to chant, I had statues of Shakyamuni, Kanzeon and Manjushri. The leader told me i had to move them out of my room, because the Gohonzon he had brought round to chant to, would see the statues and wonder why i needed them. WHAT, what does that even mean. I am so glad i realised that this was a cult before getting sucked in too far and joining!
TheVoid
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
sushigrl
()
Date: January 24, 2010 03:19AM
It's funny how they would say the Gohonzon could "see" something..other than being a mandala, it also had tiny eyes? ;)
Re: Daisaku Ikeda, Dave Lakhani, Creating A Cult Following
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: January 24, 2010 03:39AM
Creating fears of ENEMIES is a classic technique of group control, and is also a modern technique of creating a cult.
In a current thread, there is/was a discussion with a current professional mass persuader-propagandist named Dave Lakhani. This guy tries to present himself as being "the good guy", but even he points to the technique of creating a common enemy and a threat to form group cohesion.
CREATE A JOINT ENEMY AND THREAT.
There of course are dozens of techniques like this, and SGI-Ikeda has used most of them, from the classical techniques, to the most modern techniques of persuasion and brainwashing.
(info is near the middle and bottom)
Subliminal Persuasion by Dave Lakhani.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Chapter 10: Creating A Cult Following [forum.culteducation.com] creating connectedness, exclusive access, identity, how to build the cult following, create the ideal worldview, make it fun, praise them (love-bomb), how to lead your cult, create a joint enemy and threat, create an inner circle from carefully selected members.
In a current thread, there is/was a discussion with a current professional mass persuader-propagandist named Dave Lakhani. This guy tries to present himself as being "the good guy", but even he points to the technique of creating a common enemy and a threat to form group cohesion.
CREATE A JOINT ENEMY AND THREAT.
There of course are dozens of techniques like this, and SGI-Ikeda has used most of them, from the classical techniques, to the most modern techniques of persuasion and brainwashing.
(info is near the middle and bottom)
Subliminal Persuasion by Dave Lakhani.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Chapter 10: Creating A Cult Following [forum.culteducation.com] creating connectedness, exclusive access, identity, how to build the cult following, create the ideal worldview, make it fun, praise them (love-bomb), how to lead your cult, create a joint enemy and threat, create an inner circle from carefully selected members.
Quote
DavidMQuote
The Anticult
That is why Ikeda manufactured such paranoia and fear of the imagined "enemies" of the Soka Gakkai.
Ikead knows if you make people afraid, they will do what they are told, and seek a strong leader.
Ikeda also knows, if you manufacture some terrible "enemy", then that makes your followers circle the wagons and feel like they are "protecting the SGI" from the imagined enemies.
It also shields their minds to outside criticism, as they just blame it on an enemy. The more criticism they get, the stronger the imagined SGI persecution belief becomes.
The more an enemy is just imagined, the better as well for SGI.
Daisaku Ikeda is quite a brilliant global cult leader. He's not subtle, but he's been able to make billions of dollars, and manage quite a large group of disciples using fairly standard and crude techniques of mass persuasion.
I think this is totally true. Being 'inside' SGI, any and all criticism is automatically seen as coming form 'the enemies' of SGI rather than independent critical thinkers. I guess its the desire to cling to the safety of SGI that makes it so easy to do.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
sushigrl
()
Date: January 24, 2010 07:11AM
As this thread is for recovery from the mindboggling org that is SGI, maybe it would be good if we pondered this question: what constructive lessons or experiences could we take away from our escape from SGI? I for one have learned that it is important not to give over my mind to anything that asks me to throw common sense to the wind and believe in "an object of worship". All along I had a problem with this concept of object of worship while I was in the org.
I also am more careful about anything or anyone instantly wanting me to be involved with all my "heart". Being dedicated to a cause without a concrete purpose "cousin rufus" without any real direction other than furthering the aggrandizement of the org was a shameful waste of my time and efforts. This, I will never do again.
I also am more careful about anything or anyone instantly wanting me to be involved with all my "heart". Being dedicated to a cause without a concrete purpose "cousin rufus" without any real direction other than furthering the aggrandizement of the org was a shameful waste of my time and efforts. This, I will never do again.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
tsukimoto
()
Date: January 24, 2010 11:16AM
Quote
sushigrl
As this thread is for recovery from the mindboggling org that is SGI, maybe it would be good if we pondered this question: what constructive lessons or experiences could we take away from our escape from SGI? I for one have learned that it is important not to give over my mind to anything that asks me to throw common sense to the wind and believe in "an object of worship". All along I had a problem with this concept of object of worship while I was in the org.
I also am more careful about anything or anyone instantly wanting me to be involved with all my "heart". Being dedicated to a cause without a concrete purpose "cousin rufus" without any real direction other than furthering the aggrandizement of the org was a shameful waste of my time and efforts. This, I will never do again.
Sushigrl, you're talking more about personal lessons learned, rather than just the warning signs of a cult?
Well, one thing that I'm remembering from my SGI days, is just that I would have this subtle feeling of unease, or irritation with what was being said. There were things that I liked and had bought into, about SGI -- I wanted to believe that the members were friends who cared for me. I wanted to believe that I could change anything by chanting enough daimoku. So I repressed these feelings of uneasiness, or annoyance.
Looking back -- I had these feelings for a reason, and I wish I had paid attention to them! I might have saved myself a lot of trouble. You said something that I really appreciated, Sushigrl -- something to the effect of "Who is more likely to be devilish -- a person who is in touch with her own intuition and feelings, or some wealthy, powerful organization?"
I've learned that I'm also susceptible to love-bombing, to wanting to please others at the expense of my own wishes. So I'm paying more attention to that too -- reminding myself that real friendship takes time to develop -- and that my own wishes matter! True friends will still like me if I disagree with them or have different beliefs than theirs.
A person or group who has my best interest at heart will also understand that I need to have balance in my life -- that my whole life cannot be totally devoted to just one partner, friend, group, or cause.
I'm thinking now, that if someone wants to rush me into a decision, that's also a warning sign. In emergency situations, yes, I would have to act quickly -- but in other kinds of decisions -- getting married, changing religions, it's wiser to take my time and learn more about what I'd be getting into, before I take the leap.
Things also have to pass the common-sense test. When I was in SGI, I found myself wondering how going to all these meetings was really going to bring about world peace! I didn't even discuss this with nonSGI friends -- because I knew it would sound so stupid to them -- "Tsuki, you're really going to make the world a more peaceful place by sitting in these meetings watching the video of this guy Ikeda? How?" "You're going to have better luck if you chant to this piece of paper rather than that one?" I was embarrassed to admit to friends that I was doing these things -- so why was I doing them?
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