Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
Rothaus
()
Date: November 14, 2009 03:50PM
@ tsukimoto
a book is a good idea but fear that I do not have the talent :-) good idea for a joint effort though. no the info is valuable for sites like wikipedia and so forth
a book is a good idea but fear that I do not have the talent :-) good idea for a joint effort though. no the info is valuable for sites like wikipedia and so forth
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
Nichijew
()
Date: November 15, 2009 04:40AM
Makiguchi Pacifist?
"'Sacrifice your own skin to slash the opponent's flesh. Surrender your
own flesh to saw off the opponent's bone.' With their faithful
implementation of this well-known Japanese fencing (kendo) strategy
into actual practice during the war, the Japanese military is able to
achieve her glorious, ever-victorious invincibility in the Sino-Japan
conflict and in the Pacific war, and thus, easing the minds of the Japa-
nese people. This [strategy of sacrifice] should be held as an ideal
lifestyle for those remaining on the home front and should be applied
in every aspect of our daily life." --Tsunesaburo Makiguchi
From:"The Instruction Manual Summarizing the Experiments and Testimonials of
Life based on the Philosophy of Value of the Supreme Goodness."
Chaz SGI member wrote, defending Makiguchi:
> Prochronists Brian Victoria, Jon Petry and now Robert Kisala Risk
> Becoming Liars Through the Repetition of Debunked Falsehoods -
John Petry, President of the Nichiren Shu Laymen's society responds:
The true tragedy of Chas' repeated attempts to raise this issue is his
inability to address actual facts. Instead he relies on regurgitated
agit-prop from his organization, the Soka Gakkai. He also
deliberately mis-attributes authorship of material in that he quotes
material as my own when in fact it is in not. It is material I have
quoted from. Most troubling is that neither Chas nor the voluminous
material he quotes from actually addresses the material presented but
rather attempts ot overwhelm the reader with massive volumes of
material which speaks all around the subject or misquotes and
misinterporets the material presented. This is the classic straw man
argumnet in which on ignores the actual points presented and instead
invents another false issue and "rebuts" it instead.
Rather than actually address the simple fact that his own sensei as
well as two of the Soka Gakkai's own tame "scholars" disagree with
Chas, he chooses to post the same nonsense again and again. This
shows actual proof of the cowardly spirit that infuses his so called
"buddhist" practice which is nothing more than a personality cult
centered around an old, dying Japanese man known for shameless self
promotion and his actions in beating up Buddhist priests in his youth.
Dr. Victoria's comments are his own and as to when he knew what he
knew, I have no idea. However, the Soka Gakkai has worked long and
hard to rewrite history and erase reality. Chas has twisted all matter
of claptrap together to make a case where none exists. Most of his
"writing" is taken verbatim from SGI spin by its tame "scholars". The
reality is that there is no indication whatsoever that Makiguchi was a
pacifist and there is sufficient evidence that he was not. While Chas,
as his handlers, place great emphasis on statement made pre-1935,
they ignore both history and the records of the time period. The most
damning part of that portion they ignore is Makiguchi's own statements
post-1935 as well as the records of the Imperial Government including
the verycharges made against Makaguchi, i.e. slandering the Imperial
Talisman. Chas of course has no idea what any of the actual facts are
as he neither reads nor understands Japanese. He has never seen a
single document nor done any research in the matter. All he is doing
here is repeating the spin created by his organization. Dr. Victoria
is an actual scholar. He does read and speak Japanese. He does
publish in peer reviewed journals and does not take money from any
group to write apologia for them. But let's not quibble about Dr.
Victoria's credentials.
Let's first consider what is written in a 2008 edition of Tricycle
Magazine in a supposed "interview" with Daiseku Ikeda. I say
“supposed interview” as it is simply a cobbled together series of
questions posed via e-mail and responded to by the Soka Gakkai, hardly
what I would call a real interview. However Ikeda is quoted as saying
in the article:
"During World War II, however, they found themselves facing
persecutions when they resisted the currents of Japanese militarist
fascism and criticized the state’s use of Shinto to spiritually unite
the Japanese people behind the war effort. They were arrested and
imprisoned as a result."
In addition the article, which was approved by the SGI leadership and
presumably Ikeda himself states:
"Makiguchi was arrested under the Peace Preservation Act in 1943 by
the Japanese government for refusing to consolidate with other
Buddhist sects under the banner of State Shinto, effectively
challenging the authority of the military government. He died in
prison a year later."
Note that Ikeda does not mention anything about Makiguchi opposing the
actual war. In fact he cannot make such a claim because there are
comments on the record by Makiguchi supporting the war but stating
that the war effort is doomed to failure if the Imperial Government
did not discard provisional teachings such as Zen and Shingon and
embrace Nichiren Buddhism. It was Makiguchi's Rissho Ankoku-ron
moment and I am certain he saw it as exactly as that. So Chas' own
sensei is saying that Chas is a liar.
If that is not enough then let us consider another scholar, a favorite
of the Soka Gakkai in fact:
"Thus, Makiguchi and Toda defied the government and went to prison
not necessarily for anti-war beliefs, which the Soka Gakkai preaches
today, but because it was against their deeply felt religious
principles to adopt Shinto practices or to merge with another
religious sect, even if it had Nichiren connections. While Makiguchi
may have indeed made the pro-Emperor statements that Victoria alleges,
his overall thinking and demeanor was certainly not pro-militarist.
The evidence simply does not support Victoria's argument." A
Critical Analysis of Brian Victoria's Perspectives on Modern Japanese
Buddhist History by Daniel A. Metraux
So Professor Metraux disputes Professor Victoria's position that
Makiguchi was in fact pro-militarist as of course does the Soka
Gakkai's scholar, Koichi Miyata. Prof. Metraux does agree with the
position put forward by Prof. Victoria, namely that Makiguchi and Toda
went to prison for what they were charged with - lesse majesty.
Professor Metraux also admits that Makiguchi made the pro-Emperor
statements that Professor Victoria quotes although he disagrees on the
import of those statements. So Professor Metraux is also calling Chas
a liar.
Now I have suggested a position somewhat simpler and quite obvious to
anyone who actually pays attention to what is being said and what is
not being said by either Prof. Metraux or the Soka Gakkai's scholar,
Koichi Miyata. The assertion is made that Prof Victoria is taking
statements out of context to make Makiguchi into a supporter of the
military government and its view of the emperor. That may or may not
be, I cannot say as I was not there and have not had the opportunity
to review the original materials they refer to in making their
assertions. However this is not the argument I made.
Let's review shall we?
SGI Myth 1: The SGI is the only Buddhist group who stood up to the
Japanese government during WWII and was pacifist.
SGI Fact 1: The SGI as it is formed now did not exist prior to WWII.
However its founders, Makaguchi and Toda were not pacifists, in fact
they were far from it. There are speeches in existence in which they
affirm their loyalty to the Japanese government and the war. However,
they did remonstrate against the imposition of the Imperial Talisman
as an object of reverence, as well as, in their interpretation of
Rissho Ankoku-ron, urged the Japanese Government to suppress all other
Buddhist sects and force everyone to convert to Nichiren Buddhism.
They were imprisoned for the crime of lese majeste, for their
disrespect of the Imperial Talisman not because they were pacifists.
President Ikeda admits this as does Professor Metraux, in an article
he was paid to write by the Soka Gakkai.
The “Makiguchi and Toda were the only pacifists” claim made by the SGI
adds insult to the injury endured by thousands of Buddhists in Japan
who did demonstrate against the war and who were abandoned by the
leaderships of their respective sects. Many of those people were
imprisoned and executed. Others such as Nichidatsu Fujii were sent
into exile.
My position is simpler than Prof. Victoria's. Both Makiguchi and Toda
affirmed their loyalty to the Emperor and there are no statements made
by either of them which show any actual opposition to the war effort.
However they did oppose the prosecution of the war effort based upon
Imperial Shinto. Based upon their interpretation of the Rissho Ankoku-
ron, any effort by the Japanese Government to prosecute that war was
doomed to failure unless the Japanese nation was immediately converted
to Nichiren Buddhism and all heretical sects suppressed. Indeed if
one carefully reads the comments made by Koichi Miyata in his
critique of Prof. Victoria he affirms this position:
"To enable more systematic repression of religious movements, the
military government revised the Peace Preservation Law in 1939 to
provide for punishment of religious groups found to be committing
blasphemy against the Ise shrine. This shows the military government
viewed religious movements that rejected the authority of the emperor
as the last remaining impediments to rallying the nation behind its
war policies. It was against this political and social backdrop that
Makiguchi came to criticize the religious policy of the military
regime. His arrest under the Peace Preservation Law shows that the
regime judged his actions a hindrance to their conduct of the war.
Thus, Makiguchi directly opposed the militarist ideology of imperial
fascism for its religious policies, and because this opposition
constituted an impediment to conduct of the war by the military
regime, there is no doubt that he was persecuted for implicitly anti-
war activities."
Now Miyata is guilty of sloppy logic here. I have no doubt that the
Imperial Government wished to stifle any opposition to its
expansionist, militaristic policies, including any opposition from the
religious institutions of Japan. The record is clear that the
Japanese Government came down hard on dissenting views to its
policies. This includes acting against pacifists of which there were
some, both religious and otherwise. It also includes those who would
not go along with the system that the government was instituting,
namely of blind obedience to the government policies. Makiguchi did
indeed threaten this blind obedience because he asserted that the
state policy regarding the supremacy of the Imperial Talisman over the
Buddha was wrong. And equally important, that the prosecution of the
war would fail unless the government undertook to fulfill the
admonishments of the Rissho Ankoku-ron prior to such an effort. Thus
Makiguchi's direct criticism of the religious policy of the Imperial
Japanese Government did not arise out of any basis of pacifism but
rather out of something completely different. Miyata's comments
support my position quite well. The Japanese Government was quite
pathological when it came to their requirement that all the people of
Japan must be in absolute support of the government’s policy. Any nail
head sticking up was most certainly going to be hammered down.
Makiguchi was such a nail head. Makiguchi wanted the Imperial
Government to suppress all other forms of Buddhism and accept Nichiren
Buddhism as the only form of state accepted Buddhism. His position
was that if they failed to do so the war effort was doomed to
failure. This was a position that the Imperial Japanese Government
was unwilling to tolerate and hence his imprisonment along with that
of Toda.
Chaz in his hurry to smear Prof. Victoria has leapt to conclusions and
not bothered to read what was written. This is typical of Chaz and
actually in his defense, it really is not his fault. He is simply
regurgitating the nonsense he has been given as speaking points by the
Soka Gakkai leadership he works for. However the level of
incompetence among the Soka Gakkai leadership is such that they
attempt to “disprove” Professor Victoria’s statements by having their
own paid “scholars” issue rebuttals which are not rebuttals of the
main issue raised by Dr. Victoria, namely, SGI's assertion that Makiguchi
was a pacifist and opposed the Japanese war effort on that basis.:
"'Sacrifice your own skin to slash the opponent's flesh. Surrender your
own flesh to saw off the opponent's bone.' With their faithful
implementation of this well-known Japanese fencing (kendo) strategy
into actual practice during the war, the Japanese military is able to
achieve her glorious, ever-victorious invincibility in the Sino-Japan
conflict and in the Pacific war, and thus, easing the minds of the Japa-
nese people. This [strategy of sacrifice] should be held as an ideal
lifestyle for those remaining on the home front and should be applied
in every aspect of our daily life." --Tsunesaburo Makiguchi
From:"The Instruction Manual Summarizing the Experiments and Testimonials of
Life based on the Philosophy of Value of the Supreme Goodness."
Chaz SGI member wrote, defending Makiguchi:
> Prochronists Brian Victoria, Jon Petry and now Robert Kisala Risk
> Becoming Liars Through the Repetition of Debunked Falsehoods -
John Petry, President of the Nichiren Shu Laymen's society responds:
The true tragedy of Chas' repeated attempts to raise this issue is his
inability to address actual facts. Instead he relies on regurgitated
agit-prop from his organization, the Soka Gakkai. He also
deliberately mis-attributes authorship of material in that he quotes
material as my own when in fact it is in not. It is material I have
quoted from. Most troubling is that neither Chas nor the voluminous
material he quotes from actually addresses the material presented but
rather attempts ot overwhelm the reader with massive volumes of
material which speaks all around the subject or misquotes and
misinterporets the material presented. This is the classic straw man
argumnet in which on ignores the actual points presented and instead
invents another false issue and "rebuts" it instead.
Rather than actually address the simple fact that his own sensei as
well as two of the Soka Gakkai's own tame "scholars" disagree with
Chas, he chooses to post the same nonsense again and again. This
shows actual proof of the cowardly spirit that infuses his so called
"buddhist" practice which is nothing more than a personality cult
centered around an old, dying Japanese man known for shameless self
promotion and his actions in beating up Buddhist priests in his youth.
Dr. Victoria's comments are his own and as to when he knew what he
knew, I have no idea. However, the Soka Gakkai has worked long and
hard to rewrite history and erase reality. Chas has twisted all matter
of claptrap together to make a case where none exists. Most of his
"writing" is taken verbatim from SGI spin by its tame "scholars". The
reality is that there is no indication whatsoever that Makiguchi was a
pacifist and there is sufficient evidence that he was not. While Chas,
as his handlers, place great emphasis on statement made pre-1935,
they ignore both history and the records of the time period. The most
damning part of that portion they ignore is Makiguchi's own statements
post-1935 as well as the records of the Imperial Government including
the verycharges made against Makaguchi, i.e. slandering the Imperial
Talisman. Chas of course has no idea what any of the actual facts are
as he neither reads nor understands Japanese. He has never seen a
single document nor done any research in the matter. All he is doing
here is repeating the spin created by his organization. Dr. Victoria
is an actual scholar. He does read and speak Japanese. He does
publish in peer reviewed journals and does not take money from any
group to write apologia for them. But let's not quibble about Dr.
Victoria's credentials.
Let's first consider what is written in a 2008 edition of Tricycle
Magazine in a supposed "interview" with Daiseku Ikeda. I say
“supposed interview” as it is simply a cobbled together series of
questions posed via e-mail and responded to by the Soka Gakkai, hardly
what I would call a real interview. However Ikeda is quoted as saying
in the article:
"During World War II, however, they found themselves facing
persecutions when they resisted the currents of Japanese militarist
fascism and criticized the state’s use of Shinto to spiritually unite
the Japanese people behind the war effort. They were arrested and
imprisoned as a result."
In addition the article, which was approved by the SGI leadership and
presumably Ikeda himself states:
"Makiguchi was arrested under the Peace Preservation Act in 1943 by
the Japanese government for refusing to consolidate with other
Buddhist sects under the banner of State Shinto, effectively
challenging the authority of the military government. He died in
prison a year later."
Note that Ikeda does not mention anything about Makiguchi opposing the
actual war. In fact he cannot make such a claim because there are
comments on the record by Makiguchi supporting the war but stating
that the war effort is doomed to failure if the Imperial Government
did not discard provisional teachings such as Zen and Shingon and
embrace Nichiren Buddhism. It was Makiguchi's Rissho Ankoku-ron
moment and I am certain he saw it as exactly as that. So Chas' own
sensei is saying that Chas is a liar.
If that is not enough then let us consider another scholar, a favorite
of the Soka Gakkai in fact:
"Thus, Makiguchi and Toda defied the government and went to prison
not necessarily for anti-war beliefs, which the Soka Gakkai preaches
today, but because it was against their deeply felt religious
principles to adopt Shinto practices or to merge with another
religious sect, even if it had Nichiren connections. While Makiguchi
may have indeed made the pro-Emperor statements that Victoria alleges,
his overall thinking and demeanor was certainly not pro-militarist.
The evidence simply does not support Victoria's argument." A
Critical Analysis of Brian Victoria's Perspectives on Modern Japanese
Buddhist History by Daniel A. Metraux
So Professor Metraux disputes Professor Victoria's position that
Makiguchi was in fact pro-militarist as of course does the Soka
Gakkai's scholar, Koichi Miyata. Prof. Metraux does agree with the
position put forward by Prof. Victoria, namely that Makiguchi and Toda
went to prison for what they were charged with - lesse majesty.
Professor Metraux also admits that Makiguchi made the pro-Emperor
statements that Professor Victoria quotes although he disagrees on the
import of those statements. So Professor Metraux is also calling Chas
a liar.
Now I have suggested a position somewhat simpler and quite obvious to
anyone who actually pays attention to what is being said and what is
not being said by either Prof. Metraux or the Soka Gakkai's scholar,
Koichi Miyata. The assertion is made that Prof Victoria is taking
statements out of context to make Makiguchi into a supporter of the
military government and its view of the emperor. That may or may not
be, I cannot say as I was not there and have not had the opportunity
to review the original materials they refer to in making their
assertions. However this is not the argument I made.
Let's review shall we?
SGI Myth 1: The SGI is the only Buddhist group who stood up to the
Japanese government during WWII and was pacifist.
SGI Fact 1: The SGI as it is formed now did not exist prior to WWII.
However its founders, Makaguchi and Toda were not pacifists, in fact
they were far from it. There are speeches in existence in which they
affirm their loyalty to the Japanese government and the war. However,
they did remonstrate against the imposition of the Imperial Talisman
as an object of reverence, as well as, in their interpretation of
Rissho Ankoku-ron, urged the Japanese Government to suppress all other
Buddhist sects and force everyone to convert to Nichiren Buddhism.
They were imprisoned for the crime of lese majeste, for their
disrespect of the Imperial Talisman not because they were pacifists.
President Ikeda admits this as does Professor Metraux, in an article
he was paid to write by the Soka Gakkai.
The “Makiguchi and Toda were the only pacifists” claim made by the SGI
adds insult to the injury endured by thousands of Buddhists in Japan
who did demonstrate against the war and who were abandoned by the
leaderships of their respective sects. Many of those people were
imprisoned and executed. Others such as Nichidatsu Fujii were sent
into exile.
My position is simpler than Prof. Victoria's. Both Makiguchi and Toda
affirmed their loyalty to the Emperor and there are no statements made
by either of them which show any actual opposition to the war effort.
However they did oppose the prosecution of the war effort based upon
Imperial Shinto. Based upon their interpretation of the Rissho Ankoku-
ron, any effort by the Japanese Government to prosecute that war was
doomed to failure unless the Japanese nation was immediately converted
to Nichiren Buddhism and all heretical sects suppressed. Indeed if
one carefully reads the comments made by Koichi Miyata in his
critique of Prof. Victoria he affirms this position:
"To enable more systematic repression of religious movements, the
military government revised the Peace Preservation Law in 1939 to
provide for punishment of religious groups found to be committing
blasphemy against the Ise shrine. This shows the military government
viewed religious movements that rejected the authority of the emperor
as the last remaining impediments to rallying the nation behind its
war policies. It was against this political and social backdrop that
Makiguchi came to criticize the religious policy of the military
regime. His arrest under the Peace Preservation Law shows that the
regime judged his actions a hindrance to their conduct of the war.
Thus, Makiguchi directly opposed the militarist ideology of imperial
fascism for its religious policies, and because this opposition
constituted an impediment to conduct of the war by the military
regime, there is no doubt that he was persecuted for implicitly anti-
war activities."
Now Miyata is guilty of sloppy logic here. I have no doubt that the
Imperial Government wished to stifle any opposition to its
expansionist, militaristic policies, including any opposition from the
religious institutions of Japan. The record is clear that the
Japanese Government came down hard on dissenting views to its
policies. This includes acting against pacifists of which there were
some, both religious and otherwise. It also includes those who would
not go along with the system that the government was instituting,
namely of blind obedience to the government policies. Makiguchi did
indeed threaten this blind obedience because he asserted that the
state policy regarding the supremacy of the Imperial Talisman over the
Buddha was wrong. And equally important, that the prosecution of the
war would fail unless the government undertook to fulfill the
admonishments of the Rissho Ankoku-ron prior to such an effort. Thus
Makiguchi's direct criticism of the religious policy of the Imperial
Japanese Government did not arise out of any basis of pacifism but
rather out of something completely different. Miyata's comments
support my position quite well. The Japanese Government was quite
pathological when it came to their requirement that all the people of
Japan must be in absolute support of the government’s policy. Any nail
head sticking up was most certainly going to be hammered down.
Makiguchi was such a nail head. Makiguchi wanted the Imperial
Government to suppress all other forms of Buddhism and accept Nichiren
Buddhism as the only form of state accepted Buddhism. His position
was that if they failed to do so the war effort was doomed to
failure. This was a position that the Imperial Japanese Government
was unwilling to tolerate and hence his imprisonment along with that
of Toda.
Chaz in his hurry to smear Prof. Victoria has leapt to conclusions and
not bothered to read what was written. This is typical of Chaz and
actually in his defense, it really is not his fault. He is simply
regurgitating the nonsense he has been given as speaking points by the
Soka Gakkai leadership he works for. However the level of
incompetence among the Soka Gakkai leadership is such that they
attempt to “disprove” Professor Victoria’s statements by having their
own paid “scholars” issue rebuttals which are not rebuttals of the
main issue raised by Dr. Victoria, namely, SGI's assertion that Makiguchi
was a pacifist and opposed the Japanese war effort on that basis.:
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
tsukimoto
()
Date: November 16, 2009 03:09AM
Quote
gingermarie
Reading these shocking and tragic experiences reminds me of the saying, "the fish stinks from the head."
This total lack of humanity comes from nowhere but the top. It was learned by example and innuendo.
When I had been told that Mr. Williams "betrayed" Ikeda, I had asked how Ikeda responded; how he had felt. I imagine that he would feel disappointed. My leader told me that "Sensei is never disappointed, never. He has no time for that. He just moves on." I argued that anyone betrayed is bound to be disappointed to some degree, or dismayed, or sad, something! She insisted that he wasn't. I felt that his response was abnormal and disconcerting. This was the beginnings of my independent thought process. This is where all that lack of humanity and decency stems from.
---------------------------Beginning of Quote, Kempon Hokke Blog, www.fraughtwithperil.com------------------------------------------------------
An Incredulous SGI Member Writes:
"Do other religious leaders, other than President Ikeda, have lists of traitors
that they read or have someone read at leaders' meetings? I heard from a paid
staff leader that this has been done consistently in Japan for a few years.
George Williams is on the list now, and that is where the bad rumors about him
are coming from. His traitor status is rumored to be that he "thought" about
going with the temple. Other traitors on the list are leaders who didn't fully
support Pres. Ikeda in 1979, and there are more on there for different reasons.
This is the first I'd heard about this reading of a list of traitors. Made me
nauseous."
------------------------------------End of Quote--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
tsukimoto
()
Date: November 19, 2009 08:40AM
The following is guidance to SGI members from Vice President Tsuji. Anyone who was a member of SGI in the eighties has probably heard this guidance....our leaders read it to us again and again! It seems a bit ironic when you read of Ikeda's grudge toward Williams.
SGI members are supposed to forgive everyone for everything. No matter how bad someone else's actions, it was somehow your fault and you needed to chant for that person's happiness.
You see how well the senior leadership of SGI follows the guidance (and guilt tripping) that they dish out to their members.
---------------------------------------Beginning of quote----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zange Guidance from Vice President Tsuji (What to chant for, or think about while you chant)
Every hurt, anger, frustration, or painful situation that occurs to me is MY
RESPONSIBILITY.
My karma forced it to happen, or forced them to behave that way.
Hendoku Iyaku-I can turn poison into medicine and become aware of my own
"Internal Hooks" that draw such experiences to me.
I ALONE am responsible for my life condition.
Daimoku of altruism-chant for the health and well-being of the person(s)
involved, and that they may deepen their faith. Ask the Gohonzon, "What can I
do to rectify the situation?"
--------------------------End of Quote------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SGI members are supposed to forgive everyone for everything. No matter how bad someone else's actions, it was somehow your fault and you needed to chant for that person's happiness.
You see how well the senior leadership of SGI follows the guidance (and guilt tripping) that they dish out to their members.
---------------------------------------Beginning of quote----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zange Guidance from Vice President Tsuji (What to chant for, or think about while you chant)
Every hurt, anger, frustration, or painful situation that occurs to me is MY
RESPONSIBILITY.
My karma forced it to happen, or forced them to behave that way.
Hendoku Iyaku-I can turn poison into medicine and become aware of my own
"Internal Hooks" that draw such experiences to me.
I ALONE am responsible for my life condition.
Daimoku of altruism-chant for the health and well-being of the person(s)
involved, and that they may deepen their faith. Ask the Gohonzon, "What can I
do to rectify the situation?"
--------------------------End of Quote------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
Sparky
()
Date: November 19, 2009 09:15AM
Nichijew, interesting posting. I was always concerned about the fact that a Buddhist leader would need machine-gun armed guards as bodyguards.
Buddhists are supposed to be THE most peaceful and noble group out there.
If you are the leader of Buddhist group, shouldn't your faith preclude this sort of thing? I mean, if you don't believe in the shit you are selling to the masses then what does that say about the salesman?
Buddhists are supposed to be THE most peaceful and noble group out there.
If you are the leader of Buddhist group, shouldn't your faith preclude this sort of thing? I mean, if you don't believe in the shit you are selling to the masses then what does that say about the salesman?
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
Nichijew
()
Date: November 19, 2009 01:45PM
Sparky, you write:
Sparky:
Nichijew, interesting posting. I was always concerned about the fact that a Buddhist leader would need machine-gun armed guards as bodyguards.
Nichijew:
Nichiren Daishonin protected himself with his beads. However, some of his disciples did carry swords and staves to protect him. The nature of the world in which we live, does not preclude protecting oneself, our loved ones, or our beloved teachers. Mind you, I am not defending Ikeda's or the Dalai Lama's disciples, just the reality of the world. I don't know if Ikeda has received death threats or actual attacks on his life, as did Nichiren Daishonin. If he hasn't received such threats or been attacked, then machine gun carrying armed guards is a manifestation of delusion. Where did you hear or see such thing?
Sparky:
Buddhists are supposed to be THE most peaceful and noble group out there.
Nichijew:
We are the most peaceful and noble group as born out by history but some of us learned the lesson of the Muslim and Hindu genocide and banishment of the Buddhists in India. Some have estimated that twenty million Buddhists died at the hands of the Muslims and Hindus in India alone.
Sparky:
If you are the leader of Buddhist group, shouldn't your faith preclude this sort of thing? I mean, if you don't believe in the shit you are selling to the masses then what does that say about the salesman?
Nichijew:
Faith is common sense and should reflect the times and circumstances, no?
Sparky:
Nichijew, interesting posting. I was always concerned about the fact that a Buddhist leader would need machine-gun armed guards as bodyguards.
Nichijew:
Nichiren Daishonin protected himself with his beads. However, some of his disciples did carry swords and staves to protect him. The nature of the world in which we live, does not preclude protecting oneself, our loved ones, or our beloved teachers. Mind you, I am not defending Ikeda's or the Dalai Lama's disciples, just the reality of the world. I don't know if Ikeda has received death threats or actual attacks on his life, as did Nichiren Daishonin. If he hasn't received such threats or been attacked, then machine gun carrying armed guards is a manifestation of delusion. Where did you hear or see such thing?
Sparky:
Buddhists are supposed to be THE most peaceful and noble group out there.
Nichijew:
We are the most peaceful and noble group as born out by history but some of us learned the lesson of the Muslim and Hindu genocide and banishment of the Buddhists in India. Some have estimated that twenty million Buddhists died at the hands of the Muslims and Hindus in India alone.
Sparky:
If you are the leader of Buddhist group, shouldn't your faith preclude this sort of thing? I mean, if you don't believe in the shit you are selling to the masses then what does that say about the salesman?
Nichijew:
Faith is common sense and should reflect the times and circumstances, no?
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
rattyboy
()
Date: November 21, 2009 02:04AM
Yes, watch out for room mates. And look out for 'fortune babies' who may or may not practice. they are the children of followers. I let one convince me to let him stay with me after finding out from other members that we were going to help him relocate to our area. He actually moved in after my housemate at the time was so angry about this plan that he moved out the next day. 'Fortune Baby' didn't pay any rent or bills but kept promising. I begged with his parents with whom I had phone contact to help their son to help me out. I asked the leaders who had told me about him. They all stayed out of it. I did yard work to help earn his share and did small payments to the landlady waiting for him to kick in some funds. For a few years after this after I had to move to a dump i was constantly being convinced by other members to accept what happened even though he still wasn't practicing. I ended up not going to grad school as I had been planning because i was thrown off mentally and financially by these events and the 'survival mode' lifestyle I had taken on in the following years. 3 years earlier NSA members (or SGI) were nervous when I wanted to channel my new found energies into going to Graduate School. They warned me that would get in the way of finding time for Buddhist activities and strongly discouraged Grad school. i was also discouraged from seeing a psychiatrist as my decision making became more flustered. So that is twice that this organization had something to do with not continuing my education.
The Mentor/Disciple thing? They are really pushing that. I agree. The other Spiritual leaders you mention seem much more inspiring and some more humble. And, I recognize the not so humble schisters in new age/ religious movements. Ikeda doesn't move me. For over 15 years...does not move me. I won't suggest anything negative about him here.
It is with a certain amount of trepidation that I write these words. 'Oh No!' my karma!' 'What if the wrong people read this'. Well forgive this not very well paid dissatisfied customer who did have an up and down practice.
I have believed the chanting itself works and if the 'organization' and people with all their faults are part of the reality lesson of 'poison into medicine' and, well if you leave it at that, good luck to anyone who gets a phone call to come back.
I never felt good about calling someone 'my shakabuku'. i felt like I had a chain around their ankle. It stole their individuality away.
The Mentor/Disciple thing? They are really pushing that. I agree. The other Spiritual leaders you mention seem much more inspiring and some more humble. And, I recognize the not so humble schisters in new age/ religious movements. Ikeda doesn't move me. For over 15 years...does not move me. I won't suggest anything negative about him here.
It is with a certain amount of trepidation that I write these words. 'Oh No!' my karma!' 'What if the wrong people read this'. Well forgive this not very well paid dissatisfied customer who did have an up and down practice.
I have believed the chanting itself works and if the 'organization' and people with all their faults are part of the reality lesson of 'poison into medicine' and, well if you leave it at that, good luck to anyone who gets a phone call to come back.
I never felt good about calling someone 'my shakabuku'. i felt like I had a chain around their ankle. It stole their individuality away.
guys!!
Posted by:
Yzak
()
Date: November 21, 2009 09:12AM
Here are 2 very informative clips against SGI, a very exotic ones
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]
comments anybody?!
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]
comments anybody?!
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
tsukimoto
()
Date: November 21, 2009 11:15AM
Thanks for the links, Yzak. The first video actually made a lot of the same points that many of us have in this thread -- the unrealistic promises, how SGI keeps manipulating members to do more and give more in the hopes that those unrealistic promises will be met, and also the need to keep communicating with and showing love to family or friends who've gotten sucked into SGI's web. It just did it using cute little anime characters, little girlish cartoon voices, a Japan-pop tune. There was also another video in that group, a heavy-metal band called "Anheling" that sings anti-SGI and anti-Ikeda songs in Japanese.
The second is also interesting. Here are some quotes from it: "SGI members will seemingly look like good persons and will give you advice with a grin. But their eyes will be crazy because they have been brainwashed that Daisaku Ikeda is the greatest man in this world. They will ask you persistently so it is dangerous to make friends with them...he [Ikeda] has pretended to be Japanese and has taken poor people for decades....it [SGI] ties up with a gang named "G-gumi" and kills a man as if he killed himself."
Years ago, I heard rumors that Ikeda was not actually Japanese, but of Korean ancestry. Surely this can't be true; Japanese have a family registry...you can find out pretty quickly who someone, and his ancestors were. And really, what difference would it make if he did have Japanese or Chinese ancestors? It's the taking poor people that is the problem.
Gang ties? Making a murder look like suicide? The person who made the videos did not give any specific information about those things.
The second is also interesting. Here are some quotes from it: "SGI members will seemingly look like good persons and will give you advice with a grin. But their eyes will be crazy because they have been brainwashed that Daisaku Ikeda is the greatest man in this world. They will ask you persistently so it is dangerous to make friends with them...he [Ikeda] has pretended to be Japanese and has taken poor people for decades....it [SGI] ties up with a gang named "G-gumi" and kills a man as if he killed himself."
Years ago, I heard rumors that Ikeda was not actually Japanese, but of Korean ancestry. Surely this can't be true; Japanese have a family registry...you can find out pretty quickly who someone, and his ancestors were. And really, what difference would it make if he did have Japanese or Chinese ancestors? It's the taking poor people that is the problem.
Gang ties? Making a murder look like suicide? The person who made the videos did not give any specific information about those things.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
Nichijew
()
Date: November 22, 2009 12:53AM
Quote
rattyboy
Yes, watch out for room mates. And look out for 'fortune babies' who may or may not practice. they are the children of followers. I let one convince me to let him stay with me after finding out from other members that we were going to help him relocate to our area. He actually moved in after my housemate at the time was so angry about this plan that he moved out the next day. 'Fortune Baby' didn't pay any rent or bills but kept promising. I begged with his parents with whom I had phone contact to help their son to help me out. I asked the leaders who had told me about him. They all stayed out of it. I did yard work to help earn his share and did small payments to the landlady waiting for him to kick in some funds. For a few years after this after I had to move to a dump i was constantly being convinced by other members to accept what happened even though he still wasn't practicing. I ended up not going to grad school as I had been planning because i was thrown off mentally and financially by these events and the 'survival mode' lifestyle I had taken on in the following years. 3 years earlier NSA members (or SGI) were nervous when I wanted to channel my new found energies into going to Graduate School. They warned me that would get in the way of finding time for Buddhist activities and strongly discouraged Grad school. i was also discouraged from seeing a psychiatrist as my decision making became more flustered. So that is twice that this organization had something to do with not continuing my education.
The Mentor/Disciple thing? They are really pushing that. I agree. The other Spiritual leaders you mention seem much more inspiring and some more humble. And, I recognize the not so humble schisters in new age/ religious movements. Ikeda doesn't move me. For over 15 years...does not move me. I won't suggest anything negative about him here.
It is with a certain amount of trepidation that I write these words. 'Oh No!' my karma!' 'What if the wrong people read this'. Well forgive this not very well paid dissatisfied customer who did have an up and down practice.
I have believed the chanting itself works and if the 'organization' and people with all their faults are part of the reality lesson of 'poison into medicine' and, well if you leave it at that, good luck to anyone who gets a phone call to come back.
I never felt good about calling someone 'my shakabuku'. i felt like I had a chain around their ankle. It stole their individuality away.
Dear Rattyboy:
First let me say that you have no choice but to pull yourself off the ground and become a great success as a human being. Sharing your experiences here is a useful start.
I have never seen so many individuals or a group that does so much talking and so little walking. Ironically, the Value Creation Society, has contributed to the downfall of many hundreds of thousands of individuals, even if these individuals won't or can't admit it to themselves. I was a member for over twenty years and although I succeeded in my quest to become a doctor, were it not for the SGI activities and the leaders constant exhortations to do more activities, I might have been an interventional cardiologist or cardiac surgeon rather than a general practitioner. Some may find it strange that I still chant Namu Myoho renge kyo but the Lotus Sutra so resonates in my heart and my mind, I have been able to withstand even the assault on my very being by those who claim to have attained what they have not. I now follow the Law exclusively and refuse to follow a person, any person [except my wife of course who would kill me if I said otherwise].
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