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Shavoy

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Findingmywaytoday
Thank you Rattyboy. Ugh, it is really annoying, and I agree with you that it would be time to find some new friends. I also was thinking and wondering if SGI members feel like they can "win" and "create value" without chanting. I think and know you can, but caught myself doubting it because of my time in SGI.

Findingmywaytoday, hello...people of all faiths absolutely create value and win every day without ever hearing of SGI, Gohonzon and Senor Ikeda. ("Create value" seems to be an SGI trademark.) They live full lives with all the ups and downs without ever having heard of SGI, Gohonzon and the Big Dude. And I can speak of family and friends who died content at ripe old ages, despite disease in some cases. They had no regrets on how their lives had played out.

No SGI. No Gohonzon. No you-know-who!

I've always kept one eye cocked open throughout my years with SGI and when I've spoken about this "phenomenon" that other people seem to experience benefits, gotten prayers answered, felt satisfaction in their soul, wellll...what can die-hard SGI-ers say? Some do agree, plenty grit teeth and chomp out the Refute-This-Inferior-Mindset-STAT! response....

SGI has not and will not ever have the True License on Life. We are human, and with all the individual DNA's, how can we think or feel exactly the same??

I'm with you,

Shavoy

Shavoy, your post is really meaningful and I appreciate it. We are so on the same page for many things. It is so helpful to write and share my feelings. I really am working hard, I think to see the brainwashing for what it is.

Ironically, tomorrow is my Gohonzon birthday, but I haven't celebrated it for several years. It has been 5 years since I received Gohonzon. Interestingly enough, I went back and read some of the e-mails I saved from people before I got my Gohonzon, but when I started to chant. The e-mails were all about how smart I am, and just a lot of love-bombing. As soon as I got Gohonzon, that stopped. Instead, any experience I was supposed to share was only meant to encourage the guest and nothing else. That is hogwash in my book. I was told on occasion to not act insecure. What is helping me in staying away is that this doesn't feel supportive of me, and if I have a choice, I want to spend time with people who really support me.

I also feel like the whole Ikeda thing was something I remained blind to until after I got Gohonzon. That could have had more to do with me, and not wanting to realize I joined a cult.

Recently an SGI member told me that SGI was not a cult, but I don't think that is up to an SGI member to decide, unless of course you have really looked at the criticism of the organization. Hmm..

Also, it was noted once that the more you participate in SGI, the more you participate in your life. Whatever..

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Findingmywaytoday

Also, it was noted once that the more you participate in SGI, the more you participate in your life. Whatever..

It's this whole fusion things that happens in both cults and abusive relationships. SGI members tout this whole mindset: "SGI is my life." "Be one with your mentor's mind." Some gurus try to get members to feel as if they are "one" with the guru. Note that it only goes one way --- you are supposed to take on the guru's or mentor's thinking -- he doesn't take on yours! I was supposed to become one with Ikeda, though Ikeda has no interest in becoming one with me....my bank account, sure, but not me!

This reminds me of something that I read about abusive relationships: the abuser sees the child or spouse as an extension of himself or herself -- and so, is outraged when the child or spouse simply has different tastes, different opinions, or even fails to anticipate what the abuser wants. If I'm an extension of you, why would I even have to ask you what you want for dinner, or when you want to eat? In an abuser's mind, I should just know that without being told. The abuser does not feel a similar responsibility to anticipate the child's or spouse's wishes -- this "one-ness" is a one-way street, where everything is to go the group's, the abuser's, the guru's, or the mentor's way!

@The Anticult who wrote "But deep breathing with a slow release, gives a calm feeling just like chanting" Okay, I am not promoting chanting or SGI but deep breathing does not produce the same effects as chanting daimoku. I got a bunch of cds of deep breathing meditations etc. last year. I used them alone and with small groups. I got very little out of my multiple tries. I went in with an open mind and did my best. Then, I resumed chanting exclusively. I have incorporated some of those techniques in my chanting, but to me there is no comparison. Yes, deep breathing/meditation was calming, but actually a bit boring--certainly nothing to do regularly or to look forward to. In all fairness, I must admit that others who joined me did not feel the same way. We would do both approaches and many preferred the deep breathing over the chanting so there you have it. I think it comes down to what you want out of the meditation. I don't just want relaxation, but those who do may not like chanting. Regardless, they do not produce the same experience. @Findingmyway today who wrote, "What I like about chanting NMRK is that I feel more motivated to do things sometimes. I wish there was another way to find that motivation without having to chant." I hear you. As a recovering alcoholic, there are many things I have to do to stay in recovery without relapse. I had plenty of those as I tried to experiment and intellectualize everything, which is what Anticult likes to do. Even before I developed my addiction to alcohol and drugs, I noticed that chanting often felt like a burden but that I felt better when I did it consistently and for more than just a few minutes. I still feel this way today. Many people on this board and in society think they are really liberating people by pointing out all the neurological or historical reasons for everything. I am an educated person. I know many of those things too, but I have also seen that relying exclusively on my intellect does not make ME happier or better able to handle life's ups and downs. My life is great in every respect but that really only happened when I stopped thinking I could explain everything rationally. Perhaps I believe in the usefulness of superstition, the belief in God or a higher power--in my case it's NMRK but I am humble enough to accept that I don't have to be able to know wny chanting works or why people believe in God or something greater than themselves. I do believe in the usefulness of therapy or drugs to treat clinical depression but I do see how MANY people are overdiagnosed and could benefit by having an active belief in God, in something greater than themselves. Too often "educated" people think they are on to something simply because they can sneer at other people's religious beliefs. Please, the "educated" don't know any more than the superstitious. They set up their intellect as their personal saviour as much as the others believe in a power greater than themselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2011 12:33AM by doubtful.

I know what you mean Doubtful. I also find chanting NMRK to be a different experience than deep breathing. After chanting, I must say I feel more motivated. It isn't so much about relaxation, but whatever works for people is what is good. I see nothing wrong per se, with chanting NMRK, but I see a lot wrong with the context that it is under.

Anyhow, I was just thinking that when one is supposed to give an experience at an SGI meeting, one is supposed to mention that you got what you wanted because you chanted, and also more importantly that you participated in SGI activities, and you wrote to President Ikeda. I remember hearing from an area leader that we should only talk about SGI things at meetings, and not about the Secret, or self-help books. This area leader said she had been to meetings where the guests were giving guidance to the SGI members.

I remember thinking that if I am only supposed to reach my goal through chanting and participating in SGI activities, then this alone was not working for me, and I felt bad about myself and my life, which now in retrospect is ridiculous. It is amazing how SGI gets one to believe that if you think those things don't work, then it is like you are saying your life doesn't work. I think that is silly. I now find it refreshing to reach my goal however I see fit. It has nothing to do with SGI activities. I find volunteering for an organization of my choosing just as helpful to help me overcome myself, and my self pity.

I once posted on here that I felt inclined to help the firefighters as they were battling a blaze here in my city. They were accepting donations of gatorade, water, and snackbars to help the firefighters. I told some SGI members about that, and they said: ooh, that's nice, but if we donate, then we won't have money for our family funfest. I didn't see that a priority, so maybe I was never a dedicated member.

When there is a disaster somewhere, very often the first things SGI members think about are other SGI members. I found this as a red flag, because world peace to me means helping everyone!

There are two sides to SGI phenomenon. First is chanting NMRK, which is wonderful, but was not invented by SGI. The second, most stricking side of SGI phenomenon is the fact that since 1930, when SGI was founded, they were able to shakubuku almost 10% of Japanese population! Well, there are other countries, where large percentage of population belongs to one religion, but it usually took centuries to convert people. In case of SGI we are talking about 81 years! Wakatta said: "The Japanese culture is a perfect breeding ground for cult-like activities to flourish."Without understanding Japanese culture one can not understand the phenomenon of SGI.
Yesterday I saw a wonderful Japanese movie "Tokyo Sonata". The short syllabus is "An ordinary family in modern Japan is caught in the throes of inert pride, stymied by their own inability to communicate honestly with one another. Lies lead to suspicion, until the veneer of their civility shatters, with tragic consequences." You can see the untranslated version of this movie at

[v.youku.com]

It made understand a lot. I looked at these people's lives, and it was totally clear why would somebody like them readily jump into something like SGI. I strongly recommend this movie to everyone.

As for chanting NMRK, I just want to say there is a huge difference in chanting on your own and joining SGI.

List,

I am not a psychologist nor a cult expert however one thing that seems evident is that once someone severs their life away from an organization like SGI a void is left behind. In fact, an organization like SGI which so strongly touts having a "Purpose" to your life certainly will have been deeply embedded into ones psychology. People who in the past did not have a unifying component in their life end up like shipwrecked sailors sitting on a strange beach wondering "what happened?" The safe and comfortable world they once inhabited is now in wreckage all around them.

Like those sailors, some take the wreckage and attempt to rebuild their lives using what they found, like Gilligan's island it ends up being just a copy of what once was. Machinery fashioned out of coconuts and sea shells are just empty reminders of a once promising but long gone past. Acting out one's role as if nothing had happened seems to me to be deluded.

In a practice such as ex-SGI-ism, the 800 pound gorilla in the room is the question of whether it worked or not and if it was so effective, why did it evolve the way it did.

When I severed ties with SGI one of the first things that went was the chanting and gongyo. My reasoning was this: Like an iceberg, the part of the practice that was visible was flawed. If Ikea could change gongyo on a whim, if he could change and re-manufacture the gohonzon on a whim, then it was reduced to being just some human creation, subject to all the distortions of an organization motivated by power - and that was only the part that was visible! What lay beneath the surface?

Gongyo, being the fundamental and essential practice beyond chanting clearly appeared to malleable without clear reasons why. Turning back to NMRK, there was equally debate over what it meant, using Namu or not, it's significance at the core of the practice, etc. and it's ability to change and revitalize a life - obviously, when the very core of an organization based on the daimoku slips into corruption and loses its way, the essential component of that groups "salvation" needs to be scrutinized as truly embodying what is claimed. If the entity of the gohonzon could be "manipulated" then so could the daimoku! The canonical claim that somehow daimoku is an eternal truth and a unifying force continues to be made but the evidence in history that it hasn't unified anything at all. Can a life philosophy be based on flash comic books simply because some guru says so?

Once the self-consistency was shown (to me) as being non-existent - just some marketing hype, I decided that attempting to go back down that path would be nothing more than putting "new wine in old skins". Having practiced very hard as a member, consuming a lot of reading material and struggling to grasp the teaching, I decided that (for me at least) it didn't make sense to simply move to another, "NSA-like" organization and simply resolved to go on with my life divested of the vestiges of that old philosophy. The core of the practice and the belief system in my opinion had been polluted beyond reclaim, and everywhere I looked I just saw facets of the same pollution, just under different names.

Now, each person must map out their own salvation, but based on what I experienced in my years of practice there is an undercurrent of darkness wrapped up in the SGI experience and until that organization comes to honest recognition of the "parasite in it's bowels" I'm afraid it's disease will have to run its course before I would ever consider it as a viable life philosophy again.

This is a painful thing for me to say given the relationship I once had, but the truth is the truth. The aspects of the "old practice" are all interwoven one with another and buying into one element brings all the rest along as well. I don't see how the wreckage can be reassembled, and looking beyond the reef and the wrecked hulk, I see many other wrecks out there too which causes me to believe this isn't a "safe harbor".

I'm sorry if I might have offended anyone with my analogies, I only speak for myself and am sharing my insights with the group.

Wakatta1



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2011 07:33PM by wakatta1.

@Wakatta1 who wrote, ]"Having practiced very hard as a member, consuming a lot of reading material and struggling to grasp the teaching, I decided that (for me at least) it didn't make sense to simply move to another, "NSA-like" organization and simply resolved to go on with my life divested of the vestiges of that old philosophy. The core of the practice and the belief system in my opinion had been polluted beyond reclaim, and everywhere I looked I just saw facets of the same pollution, just under different names."[/[/size]size] You have described me well. I left SGI in May/June of 2010 and I briefly considered joining other groups. Then I discovered the same thing you did: others are just SGI-lite or SGI-wannabes or some variation thereof. But what this taught me is that humans must have some underlying need for this kind of experience. Oddly, this made me more sympathetic. I could (and still do) see people like my mom and my old district members as typical human beings, wanting to feel they are a part of something that gives their life meaning, order, and purpose. I was able to fill the void left by SGI with AA meetings--and I do know the criticisms of that fellowship. Looking around those rooms, talking to random people in other places, and recalling SGI meetings convinced me that many people need organizations like SGI or the church. I won't argue with reality, but I also recognize that some people, like most of my colleagues, get their meaning elsewhere. Perhaps I lack imagination or ? and that's why SGI was so appealing for 21 years. Regardless, I am not interested in SGI or any organized anything (AA avoids organization, has no leaders, hierarchy, or aggressiveness) for the reasons you gave Wakatta1. Those who think life will be too hard without SGI will discover that any discomfort passes quickly as long as you don't go plunging into another organization. I always did other recreational activities like concerts, reading, courses, travel and romance anyway so SGI was never my whole world, but I was definitely a devoted district leader and general member, for over 20 years. Occasionally I get invitations from SGI members--even some who are also recovering alcoholics who were able to stay with SG--to attend activities. Who knows, perhaps I will chant with some SGI members one day. I don't harbor any ill will toward them; yet I suspect that the veneration of Ikeda remains in full swing and that's what drove me out the door. Furthermore, it was tiresome to hear the fanatics tie personal/professional success to the organization and Ikeda--and to "sell" the practice that way. Therefore, it's unlikely that I shall ever do SGI again, although I don't regret my time with them. Hey, they taught me to chant and I still love doing that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2011 11:08PM by doubtful.

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wakatta1
List,

I am not a psychologist nor a cult expert however one thing that seems evident is that once someone severs their life away from an organization like SGI a void is left behind. In fact, an organization like SGI which so strongly touts having a "Purpose" to your life certainly will have been deeply embedded into ones psychology. People who in the past did not have a unifying component in their life end up like shipwrecked sailors sitting on a strange beach wondering "what happened?" The safe and comfortable world they once inhabited is now in wreckage all around them.

Like those sailors, some take the wreckage and attempt to rebuild their lives using what they found, like Gilligan's island it ends up being just a copy of what once was. Machinery fashioned out of coconuts and sea shells are just empty reminders of a once promising but long gone past. Acting out one's role as if nothing had happened seems to me to be deluded.

In a practice such as ex-SGI-ism, the 800 pound gorilla in the room is the question of whether it worked or not and if it was so effective, why did it evolve the way it did.

When I severed ties with SGI one of the first things that went was the chanting and gongyo. My reasoning was this: Like an iceberg, the part of the practice that was visible was flawed. If Ikea could change gongyo on a whim, if he could change and re-manufacture the gohonzon on a whim, then it was reduced to being just some human creation, subject to all the distortions of an organization motivated by power - and that was only the part that was visible! What lay beneath the surface?

Gongyo, being the fundamental and essential practice beyond chanting clearly appeared to malleable without clear reasons why. Turning back to NMRK, there was equally debate over what it meant, using Namu or not, it's significance at the core of the practice, etc. and it's ability to change and revitalize a life - obviously, when the very core of an organization based on the daimoku slips into corruption and loses its way, the essential component of that groups "salvation" needs to be scrutinized as truly embodying what is claimed. If the entity of the gohonzon could be "manipulated" then so could the daimoku! The canonical claim that somehow daimoku is an eternal truth and a unifying force continues to be made but the evidence in history that it hasn't unified anything at all. Can a life philosophy be based on flash comic books simply because some guru says so?

Once the self-consistency was shown (to me) as being non-existent - just some marketing hype, I decided that attempting to go back down that path would be nothing more than putting "new wine in old skins". Having practiced very hard as a member, consuming a lot of reading material and struggling to grasp the teaching, I decided that (for me at least) it didn't make sense to simply move to another, "NSA-like" organization and simply resolved to go on with my life divested of the vestiges of that old philosophy. The core of the practice and the belief system in my opinion had been polluted beyond reclaim, and everywhere I looked I just saw facets of the same pollution, just under different names.

Now, each person must map out their own salvation, but based on what I experienced in my years of practice there is an undercurrent of darkness wrapped up in the SGI experience and until that organization comes to honest recognition of the "parasite in it's bowels" I'm afraid it's disease will have to run its course before I would ever consider it as a viable life philosophy again.

This is a painful thing for me to say given the relationship I once had, but the truth is the truth. The aspects of the "old practice" are all interwoven one with another and buying into one element brings all the rest along as well. I don't see how the wreckage can be reassembled, and looking beyond the reef and the wrecked hulk, I see many other wrecks out there too which causes me to believe this isn't a "safe harbor".

I'm sorry if I might have offended anyone with my analogies, I only speak for myself and am sharing my insights with the group.

Wakatta1

Dear Wakatta:

You highlight what would seem like a paradox,

Question: How can the SGI practice the "Supreme Law" and end up the way they are?

Answer: There are three components to the religion of the Lotus Sutra as taught by Nichiren Daishonin: Faith, practice, and study and the practice can be broken down into the practice for oneself and the practice for others. Furthermore, the practice for others can be broken down into the gentle and the forceful practices. Let us set aside for the moment their truncated Daimoku [Nam Myoho renge kyo rather than Namu Myoho renge kyo] and their Nichikan [rather than Nichiren] Gohonzon. Their most egregious deviations are in the realm of the faith [Three Treasures and Three Great Secret Laws] and study [studying the works of Makiguchi, Toda, and Ikeda at the expense of the Lotus Sutra, the writings of Nichiren, and the teachings of Tientai]. They also deviate in their practice for others, employing the gentle and forceful practices inappropriately. In short, they deviate from the formula laid down by Nichiren. If an expert roadbuilder lays down a perfect road, well built, well lit, and well signaged but the traveler loses his way, is it the fault of the roadbuilder? If an excellent physician prescribes the proper medicine but the seriously ill patient refuses to take the medicine, is it the doctor's fault if the patient dies?

Nichijew

@NichiJew

As a practitioner of another Nichiren sect I can respect and understand your perspective - that being that SGI alone has set itself apart by being in such error. Nevertheless my issue runs much deeper than that in the following way: Whether it is SGI, or Paul's pretty good religion Inc., if the teaching is purported to be of such immense power that it can overcome any aspect of the "world of suffering" and can cut through the "inherent darkness in mens lives" then it is fair to expect that somewhere in the body politic there would be those who would rise to the occasion and steer the organization into the right. And of the leadership, wouldn't they be held to the very highest standard to retain their legitimacy? Are we talking religion and life philosophy here and not simply the rules of a particular club?

That apparently hasn't happened in the SGI I've known, and I posit that since the body of the teaching is the law, the invocation and the teacher, and if all three have been corrupted, what are you left with? Does it make sense to expend precious time flipping over rocks to find which of the myriad of Nichiren-like schools is "correct"? And, correct to whom? I fail to see any consensus within the many temples and lay organizations which would cause me to once again fall under the spell of "the magic machine" mentality. A well built road, with signs and rest stops and guard rails which runs off the edge of a cliff is not much use to anyone.

As the Jyu-nyo-ze points out - the final element is "consistency from beginning to end". Backtracking from that point, what does it say about the pedigree of the practitioners, leadership and perhaps even the elixir itself. Until I see the effects of the boddhisattva's of the earth in moderating and guiding those practices I'm simply left to ask "why bother?"

Worth debating but at another time.

Wakatta

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Findingmywaytoday
I know what you mean Doubtful. I also find chanting NMRK to be a different experience than deep breathing. After chanting, I must say I feel more motivated. It isn't so much about relaxation, but whatever works for people is what is good. I see nothing wrong per se, with chanting NMRK, but I see a lot wrong with the context that it is under.

Anyhow, I was just thinking that when one is supposed to give an experience at an SGI meeting, one is supposed to mention that you got what you wanted because you chanted, and also more importantly that you participated in SGI activities, and you wrote to President Ikeda. I remember hearing from an area leader that we should only talk about SGI things at meetings, and not about the Secret, or self-help books. This area leader said she had been to meetings where the guests were giving guidance to the SGI members.

I remember thinking that if I am only supposed to reach my goal through chanting and participating in SGI activities, then this alone was not working for me, and I felt bad about myself and my life, which now in retrospect is ridiculous. It is amazing how SGI gets one to believe that if you think those things don't work, then it is like you are saying your life doesn't work. I think that is silly. I now find it refreshing to reach my goal however I see fit. It has nothing to do with SGI activities. I find volunteering for an organization of my choosing just as helpful to help me overcome myself, and my self pity.

I once posted on here that I felt inclined to help the firefighters as they were battling a blaze here in my city. They were accepting donations of gatorade, water, and snackbars to help the firefighters. I told some SGI members about that, and they said: ooh, that's nice, but if we donate, then we won't have money for our family funfest. I didn't see that a priority, so maybe I was never a dedicated member.

When there is a disaster somewhere, very often the first things SGI members think about are other SGI members. I found this as a red flag, because world peace to me means helping everyone!

Findingmywaytoday....I was always told there really is no mixing and matching in this Buddhism...it has to be "pure". So that makes total sense in an SGI context, that books such as "The Secret", would be completely taboo. But "The Secret" (which I have not read, but heard a lot about) says basically, you can visualize your dreams in life and they will happen, by positive thinking....well, we are told with NMRK, that you can chant, visualizing your dreams and they will come to reality...and if they don't, well, you will get the best outcome for your life. Jeez, not much difference there, right?

But nooo...we can't have "The Secret" or any other book or practice discussed, as that would muddy the waters to a dangerous degree. Good Grief.

And why do you have to write and report to President Ikeda, anyway???

As for contributing to other causes, SGI has always been reticent and vague about doing that, too...at least to my observation. Because do these causes slander the True Buddhism?? I mean, the Fire Department, come on!!!

But there should be plenty o' cash for a Family Funfest, deep within the SGI vault, no?

Cry poor. Cry Foul.