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bribri
Six months later, after we had moved our family back to Canada, settling in Montreal (great city by the way), I got a surprise phone call from Tadashi Ohira, director of the Montreal Head Quarters for SGI Canada. He wanted to meet with me and to find out if I was going to try and steal members away from the gakkai. How he knew I was even in Montreal, let alone my phone number, was a big surprise and he never told me where he got the info from. A few weeks later, my wife was speaking with another temple supporter in France, who knew Marc de la Chanel and she said that he had called to complain that I had left France without returning his book and he desperately wanted to get it back. She unwittingly gave him our contact info. Marc never made any attempt to contact us at all, but Tad Ohira did, after the info was passed on to him through SGI.

In the interests of finding out what SGI Canada was up to, I agreed to finally see Tad Ohira. When we met, he brought with him the General Director of SGI Canada Micky Masuda. I wondered why all the attention for a single person like myself. The meeting was predictable and we parted with nothing accomplished and I thought that would be the last I would see them. But it wasn't. A few months later, my wife and I were preparing to drive to Ottawa and to participate for the first time in a small district meeting with a group of very young temple supporters, none of them with any knowledge of the Gakkai. An hour before leaving, I got a call from Tad, he wanted to chat and asked if I was busy that day. I though what a strange coincidence. I told him nothing and advised that he might want to call back in a few months - whatever.

Upon arriving at our destination in Ottawa, I was met at the door by our host and she was exited to let me know that my "friend" had arrived a few minutes ago and was waiting inside. Who the hell could that be!?!? She led us in and there, in the living room, in the midst of a dozen or so people, sat Tad in his business suit, a brief case at his side. I was staggered!!! The Audacity of the man. No one there had any idea as to who he was and of course he didn't say. The host was astonished when I explained he was a gakkai official. She took a while to comprehend the situation, but eventually asked him to leave or she would call the police. Tad, being encouraged to get lost, started waiving about a piece of paper and shouting at me, "You wrote letter to Morehouse University!", You say bad things about Ikeda!", "I go Dawson College (where I work) tell what you did!".

Hello, Brian and welcome to the board. Thank you for this very interesting and informative message.
In the interests of finding out what SGI Canada was up to, I agreed to finally see Tad Ohira. When we met, he brought with him the General Director of SGI Canada Micky Masuda. I wondered why all the attention for a single person like myself.
So, Tadashi Ohira, director of the Montreal Head Quarters for SGI Canada reported you to his boss the General Director of SGI Canada Micky Masuda. The next logical step would be for Micky Masuda to report you to his boss SGI President Daisaku Ikeda. This is how SGI works.
"I go Dawson College (where I work) tell what you did!".
How typical of SGI! He didn't threaten to physically harm you. He threatened to go to your work place and talk about you. Which might have resulted in loss of employment.
The primary weapon of SGI is defamation. Here is the definition of defamation by Lectric Law Library:
An act of communication that causes someone to be shamed, ridiculed, held in contempt, lowered in the estimation of the community, or to lose employment status or earnings or otherwise suffer a damaged reputation.
[www.lectlaw.com]
Why did SGI choose defamation as its primary weapon? Very simple. Defamation cases are almost impossible to prove. But the damage could be considerable. Defamation can result in loss of employment. And if the person has a family to support and mortgage to pay...
Let's assume that Tadashi Ohira went to your college and said some bad things about you. What are your options? Very limited.
Aaron Larson, Law Offices of Aaron Larson, thinks that commencing a defamation action is not always a good idea:
Why Commencing A Defamation Action Is Not Aways A Good Idea
While people who are targeted by lies may well be angry enough to file a lawsuit, there are some very good reasons why actions for defamation may not be a good idea.
The publicity that results from a defamation lawsuit can create a greater audience for the false statements than they previously enjoyed. For example, if a newspaper or news show picks up the story of the lawsuit, false accusations that were previously known to only a small number of people may suddenly become known to the entire community, nation, or even to the world. As the media is much more apt to cover a lawsuit than to cover its ultimate resolution, the net effect may be that large numbers of people hear the false allegations, but never learn how the litigation was resolved.
Another big issue is that defamation cases tend to be difficult to win, and damage awards tend to be small. As a result, it is unusual for attorneys to be willing to take defamation cases on a contingent fee basis, and the fees expended in litigating even a successful defamation action can exceed the total recovery.
Another significant concern is that, even where the statements made by the defendant are entirely false, it may not be possible for a plaintiff to prove all of the elements of defamation. Most people will respond to news that a plaintiff lost a defamation lawsuit by concluding that the allegations were true.
In other words, the plaintiff in a defamation action may be required to expend a considerable amount of money to bring the action, may experience significant negative publicity which repeats the false accusations, and if unsuccessful in the litigation may cement into the public consciousness the belief that the defamatory accusations were true. While many plaintiffs will be able to successfully prosecute defamation actions, the possible downside should be considered when deciding whether or not such litigation should be attempted.
[www.expertlaw.com]

bribri:

There you go again.

The topic here is SGI, not amateur psychoanalysis.

You do come across as someone attempting to somehow shift the blame in a way, from Ikeda and SGI to "adoring" people with "broken families" or "missing" fathers.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

People abused by cults are not to blame for their own injuries, but rather the cult itself and its leaders, through their bad behavior and practices.

In my opinion SGI is a destructive cult, which has hurt many people.

The responsibility for the harm done rests with SGI, not its victims.

Does anyone here find it useful or necessary to be deprogrammed from the SGI's way of thinking? I just want my old way back. Everytime I think about my life, I think about the practice, and I want to be able to separate the two. I don't know if that makes sense? Thank you.

If you have been deprogrammed, can you tell me how the process went for you? Maybe I sound extreme in wanting this, but what can I say?

Also, can you recommend a good place to look for this kind of service. Thank you!

rr:

You seem to engage a little psychology on your own as well ;-)

When people take the responsibility for their own actions, they immediately become empowered. SGI did damage to me as well and I've spent 20 and more years trying to undo their handiwork.

SGI, according to Political scientist Florence lacroix (Paris) is a parasitical organization, morphing itself to suit the times. They were pro-war when Japan thought it was winning and pacifist after it lost. All that pap about love and peace is pure myth. The only interests in the plight of individual members is from those who somehow manage to show genuine concern, but then these people probably have the same sympathy for everyone regardless of whether they're members or not. Toda never had this vision. Ikeda, because of the very nature of the command structure in SGI, is guilty of heinous crimes against countless numbers of innocent men and women who came to Buddhism in good faith.

We are on the same page rr.

bribri

Quote
Findingmywaytoday
My other fear that frustrates me is that if I leave SGI, members will say that I didn't want to face my human revolution, or I don't want to deal with my life. Do you think that is true? I just hate how they have hooked me into thinking how I act in regards to this organization is how I want to act with my life. I want to improve myself, but not with those people around. I get the feeling that a lot of their thinking is: you have made your bed, now lie in it..but perhaps I am wrong. I just want to get as far away from the SGI as I can!

Fear, Findingmywaytoday, it's the seed of fear, which is a powerful motivator to stay put and not rock waters, even if your gut is saying, Hey, waitta minute here...

Not wanting to face your human revolution, not wanting to deal with your life if you decide to go....those, yes, potential reactions are just one of the gazillion Frames that SGI has to answer for every little "roadblock" sincerely questioning members want to "put up".

Fear in religion, as we know, isn't exclusive by any means to the SGI. I've known former members who returned their Gohonzons with confidence and since then, they have experienced great times, benefits when needed, and of course, tough times, as we all do. But they have no regrets whatsoever. They knew SGI/Gohonzon was not fulfilling for them, and some have found their "A-ha!" in other religious faiths, that felt right in their heart and gut. And the skies didn't fall and their heads have stayed intact! I know it sounds pretty sarcastic, but it's the solid truth.

Keep trusting yourself, like you said. You'll do fine, but right now, I know it's pretty weird...

Shavoy

Quote
bribri
Hi Shavoy,

I want to answer the questions you posed the other day. I work at a college and the term has just come to an end so now I'll have more time to participate on this board.

>> How have some of your ideas about Nichiren Buddhism shifted, if you don't mind another query?

I let go of my ideas on what I thought Buddhism was about may years ago when it became obvious that I had taken for granted all what I had learned without subjecting it to critical thinking. That wasn't an easy thing to do since I started in 69 and had devoured all the so-called study materials that were available. I assumed that gakkai senior leaders had a special experience and understanding of Nichiren Buddhism, but they really didn't. We create in our own minds a dependency on them to guide us and we're asked not to trust our own judgement because our minds are unenlightened and unreliable. They also talk about the role of Ikeda, if not as a Buddha, as some exalted spiritual leader and teacher - you've heard the story before many times. There's no harm in learning anew the basics of Nichiren's teachings. It doesn't mean you have to comprehend the whole damn thing before it can do any good. Nichiren implores us to have faith above all, but he also asks us to study. Beginning with his writings is an excellent way to go.

>>someone proclaimed their belief that P.I. was indeed the Buddha reincarnate, and that did get a few long-time members hot under the collar. They frankly told this person that that was off-base. Follow the Law, not the person. These members are also extremely active with leadership, so that was an interesting, reassuring, if you will, thing to see.

Well it may be reassuring, but I would be more convinced if they would admit that the idea of Ikeda as the true Buddha was condoned by Ikeda and his immediate leadership circle way back in the 60's. In fact there are many myths that should be dealt with. There is the myths that the Gakkai was a peace movement before and during the second world war and that Makiguchi and Toda were persecuted for their pacifists efforts. The Gakkai has rewritten its history to fit the times.

>> You said you participated in France with the temple...do you and your wife participate with the temple in Montreal?

Unfortunately there is not only no temple here, there are no other Nichiren followers that I know of. If there are, I'd love to meet with them. Our closest temple is New York, but I've yet to go.

Hope to hear from you soon Shavoy.

bribri

bribri, thanks once again for responding! And once again, you have pointed out the inescapable fact that Ikeda-ism has been entrenched from the beginning. I don't think the members/leaders I mentioned are particularly aware or really glom on the issue of Ikeda as True Buddha spanning back to the 60's. Probably no surprise there. And as far as Makiguchi and Toda go, that is a myth, too? That they were persecuted for their pacifism in prison? Dios mio...where does it end??



I'm surprised to hear that there is no temple in Montreal, and you and your wife haven't located any temple members so far.

Shavoy

Hi Shavoy,

You brought up a really interesting question about Toda and Makiguchi. Toda and Makiguchi were steadfast and exemplary followers of Nichiren Shoshu, more so than the priests of their time, although it's certain that there were priests very sympathetic to their plight. However, there is not a shred of evidence to prove the peace activists claim, that is, that these 2 leaders suffered at the hands of the authorities because they were anti war, which they weren't. This is a question I put to Dayle M Bethel author of Makiguchi the Value Creator, a publication widely promoted by SGI since it came out over 30 years ago. I asked him about concrete evidence that showed Soka Kyoiku Gakkai (as it was known at that time) was a pacifist organization, and he said there wasn't any.

Another author, Brian Victoria, (University of Adelaide, Australia) produced an interesting study on the Gakkai claims about Toda and Makiguchi after he got access to police interrogation records from the period of their arrest and imprisonment. Even here, Makiguchi never expressed himself in any fashion which we could characterize as peace activism. He did warn the authorities that the war would not go well for Japan because they put their faith in Shinto when only the true Buddhism of NS could save the country from ruin. This is not to say that they were evil men, they weren't, they were decent honest and profoundly faithful. But, they were also just like everyone else in the world supporting the actions of their own countries in a time of war. Remember the feeling in your country right after 911, only one congresswoman spoke out against the attack on Afghanistan. In any case, moral correctness is always the right of the victors, never the defeated. After the war, the Japanese went from being a bullying, arrogant and ruthless imperial power, to falling into a morass of self doubt and loss of identity. Of course they've done not to badly since then adapting themselves to a new world. The Soka Gakki, just like Japan, has also manged to recreate itself too. Toda was a very passionate man and must have had an enormous influence in giving hope to the hundreds of thousands of depressed Japanese at a time when their future looked totally black. Makiguchi, did have some interesting (if not quaint) ideas on education, but so did hundreds of other educators. He would be virtually unknown today if it wasn't for the Gakkai's all powerful public relations machine.

Ikeda isn't cut from the same cloth as his predecessors, Just look at how he has spent decades climbing onto the reputations of so many real peace activists. He even co-opts the dead ones, like Ghandi and Rev. King.

I will be going to a Temple in Vancouver later next month. It's the only Canadian temple.

bribri

Hi Backnforth, Hi everyone

I am new to the board but have been reading for several days. I am an SGI-UK member (District Leader) and am planning my (hopefully quiet) disengagement from the SGI. I have been trying to find out if I can carry on a practice independently and my web searches led me to this forum. I have stopped practicing once before - for some time - but found it very difficult to keep-up the part of the practice I find worthwhile on my own (ie chanting and a bit of studying of the lotus sutra and gosho) and I missed the good effects this had on me (Basically I am very lazy and need to chant with other people occasionally to keep going - same with yoga, need classes to keep it up!)

So when I step down from DL in preparation for leaving what I now believe is a cult, I'd like to find other like minded people to chant with occasionally. I've been researching other sects but don't think that is for me - I want out of these formal organisations. . Backnforth's post of a couple of weeks ago has inspired me to take the plunge and register for the forum:

"....Anyway, enough of that. Just today I was thinking it would be great if there was a web-site launched that provided a way to link folks together in their own towns or cities if they just simply want the old fashioned discussion groups with chanting, gongyo and the gosho. It could be called ex-SGI member Connection or True Lay Organization or something like that. One problem: Nam myoho renge kyo or Namu myoho renge kyo. This is a dilema."

I did see a link to a site for independents to get in touch with each other and will join that although it looks like it is aimed mainly at the USA. But maybe I'll find some Buddhists with similar views who are near me on there some day.

Although I am absolutely at the end of my tether with this Mentor Disciple bollox, I still respect and like many of the members and leaders I know in the organisation. Many of them are good people I've known for years, who I think genuinely aren't aware of just how rabidly cult-like SGI has become - especially those of us who have been practising for 20 years or more. Just like I didn't until recently (although for about 4-5 years I have been becoming increasingly uneasy). Some of them hold very 'senior' leadership roles, but seem oblivious to what is happening. It is quite clever, the insidious way that the practise we joined has become Soka Gakkai Ikeda. Although, disturbingly, I've seen the posts where as long as 30 years ago leaders were claiming Ikea is the Buddha, so maybe it was never the relaxed, friendly and flexible organisation I remember pre-M&D Ikeda personality cult days. Maybe because I was just a lowly member I was protected from all that?

I must say I feel a lot less wary of the weeks and months ahead as I extract myself from SGI now that I have found this board to come to, so thank you all very much for the cybersupport!

Simplify

Thanks to everyone in this thread for posting. I by no means have read all of it but I have read a pretty good sampling. I just wanted to share my own experiences a bit.

I joined SGI back in the late 80s when the organization was still NSA. Nobody pressured me to join. I was very excited to learn about Buddhism and chanting. I had already taken an Eastern religions class at college so I knew quite a bit about different forms of Buddhism and I could tell that NSA was different, but back in those days they were pretty much the only game in town (as far as Buddhism went), and they were a fun and attractive group of people. I really did have a good time practicing with the other YWD and doing various kinds of activities. But I did really want to learn how to meditate and I wanted to "attain enlightenment" (whatever that is!) and I couldn't really see how this all connected up with that. However, I was learning stuff and having a good time and so I let that kind of sit on the back burner for awhile.

I subsequently lived overseas for several years and didn't really connect with the organization there, although I did drag my Gohonzon all over the world. When I came back home I drifted for awhile and then reconnected with the SGI in the 90s. Again, I did enjoy activities and the other members, but this time I struggled with being given responsibility such as being a group leader, and being in the Byakuren, that I didn't really want to do but felt a bit pressured to do so. I practiced steadily for about 4 years but then once again started to drift away. They didn't really make a concerted effort to keep me going although there were a few conversations about Buddhism in which we were talking kind of crossways. I was getting interested in mindfulness techniques and the members I was discussing "bigger" Buddhist topics with really did not have much to say that resonated with me. After that I really did not do much with myself spiritually for a long time.

Lately I have really felt the need to reconnect with... something.... and so I have started attending meditation classes. Of course this has stirred up some long-dormant thoughts about the old times with the Gakkai and so I decided to browse around on the Internet and found this forum. I can't say I had a bad experience with the SGI. I got into it with my eyes open (mostly) as even back then there were the occasional "SGI is a cult" stories floating around, which we would discuss. Later, in the 90s, I read a lot of pro- and anti-SGI stuff on the 'net with an eye to the whole Priesthood issue. Honestly that was the issue that was most damaging to me. I felt like the whole thing was just a huge example of "Buddhists Behaving Badly" and I just wanted it to go away but it kept getting brought up as to why "we're right and they're wrong." None of which seemed to me to have much to do with enlightenment. On the other hand the SGI friends I had were great and supportive people, very kind, and I enjoyed their fellowship and doing activities with them. So I know to some extent I turned a blind eye to the greater problems of "the organization" that I was concerned about... or, when I brought them up with others, only did so in the most tentative manner. I am really not a very confrontational person which is probably part of why I never really had a big confrontation over me leaving / drifting away.

On the whole, I can say that for me personally, practicing with the Gakkai was a largely positive experience. I still don't think the Gakkai was a cult, at least not a full-blown one, based only on my personal experience. However I can see that others have had different (and lots more negative) experiences and I don't want to denigrate anyone who had a bad experience (especially in Japan). I am quite sure that there are some elements about the SGI that are not the most positive tendencies in the world. So given that I had a (somewhat) positive experience, why did I drift away? Well, honestly, although being on that train was nice, I didn't see that it was getting me any closer to my destination. It's not enough to just say "You're already enlightened." That may be true, but the Gakkai seemed to follow it with "So you can do/chant for whatever you want," which doesn't make sense to me.

So. Nowadays I finally feel like I am ready to go on to the next thing, whatever that is, but I would like a little bit of closure on the SGI episode first. Perhaps that is why I am writing this post. I do feel the urge to go back to at least one meeting and talk to some of those folks that I knew back then. But I am not 100% sure what I would say to them, other than "Hi, how are you doing, I'd love to catch up." I don't feel any resentment towards the SGI. I do feel mildly curious about what they are up to these days, but it sounds like they are more or less the same.

I always used to get a bit frustrated because they would never talk about what to do with your mind while chanting. Just chanting is OK. Well -- I read books about mindfulness meditation and was very attracted to those ideas and used to try to implement them while chanting, but it is a bit hard to do on your own. I did have some very powerful and unusual experiences while chanting, but it was not something I was able to do consistently. I want to learn how to meditate and explore my mind and the universe in that way.

I don't really know what my next steps are. I don't think I will call any SGI members just yet. If I do so it would really only be for nostalgia's sake, and I would like to get a few more steps along my journey before I talk to them. I have contacted the Rissho Kosek-Kai and am waiting on a call back from someone in my area. Maybe I will call the Nichiren Shu as well. I would really like to talk face to face with someone who is in a similar situation to me, someone who left the Gakkai, but I don't know if that's possible.

I have started studying meditation at a beginner's course at a nice, very non-sectarian meditation center near me -- they do Zen, Vipassana, Pure Land, and even Christian meditation. I don't know if this is my new sangha and I have to admit that my antennae are definitely on the alert for danger signs! I feel very much "once bitten, twice shy" which is surprising to me as I don't really feel "bitten" -- but ok -- maybe a little bit! However, they are nice people at that meditation center and it feels like a safe place to be at the moment, although I really do NOT like chanting "Namo Amitabha" as they do from time to time. They also do other chants in Pali, Sanskrit and English, which I am ok with, but for some reason "Namo Amitabha" really puts me a bit on edge.

For myself I have started a daily practice as follows: chanting a bit of Daimoku, reading/reciting some of the Lotus Sutra in English, and then 30 minutes of silent meditation. I am happy with this. I have kept my Gohonzon and I don't think I will be giving it back anytime soon (although my altar would definitely not be SGI-approved these days, haha)

I think I will also read more widely about Buddhism in general, especially some of the other sutras, and more about the history of the other Nichiren groups. I suppose that is a good plan for now and as things change I can always make adjustments in the future. I don't know what sangha I will end up with. I guess the study will help me with that, no matter where I go. There are LOTS Of different kinds of Buddhists in town these days. I suppose I can do an introductory tour of all of them. I guess "you're on your own, together with everything," as they say. :)

Namaste,
sunmoonstars

I'm slowly chewing my way through this thread -- I think I am up to page 177, haha -- and someone (sorry, I don't remember who) talked about the need to reflect about WHY we joined the Gakkai. For me the answer is very easy: I have a very strong need to do things that relate to "saving the world" and also to join in as part of a group. If I look at the rest of my life the pattern is ridiculously obvious: joined the Peace Corps, participated in numerous charity athletic races where you raise funds for one cause or another, SGI, and a stint as a political campaign manager (talk about monopolizing your time, haha!).

All of these things also have one thing in common which is they suck up a lot of your TIME i.e. you tend to participate as much as you possibly can-- and there is a great sense of MISSION.

I don't really know what to do with that insight now that I have realized it, though. I don't think it's something about me that I want to (or can!) change. But I want to make sure it is directed appropriately and healthily. I'm not sure what the answer is.