Onion - You have no idea what church I even went to and no, we don't know each other. Not all of us were as important as you clearly were while in the church. I am allowed to take people on this forum seriously (or not). I am also entitled to my opinion, whether you or anyone else agrees with it.

One component missing from these discussions is the length of time being covered in the abuse perpetrated by RH. These egregious indiscretions probably date back to the JRS era, and before there was even an official John/Marilyn couple.

Those who still hold JRS in high regard have to factor this element of whitewashing into the equation, along with a variety of other questionable actions, including a possible 'love child', and the aforementioned mine debacle. With the JRS/Marilyn relationship going back into the 60's, it should come as no surprise that he would protect his interests in the relationship, including any scandals associated to it.

I remember numerous times throughout the late 70's of JRS praising RH from the pulpit, solidifying his position over the 'word-work' and thereby enabling him to take advantage of many unsuspecting victims.

. . . and we thought that working at the 'building' was the epitome of commitment, not realizing that we were exposing ourselves to a sexual predator who was enabled from the top of the food chain.

kBOY - Very well said. In my ranting analysis of Gary trying to fix the church issue, I only went back to 1983 because that is when Gary came into power.

There is no question that the wrongs committed by church leadership, both moral and possibly criminal, started long before 1983. In fact, I heard details of Rick's seduction technique and I previously heard details of JRS'. Maybe it's a given that when a church leader/minister "seduces" the women in his church that it is done "as a word from God." Or as an alternative, "a word from John" or "This is what John would want." Apparently, church leaders of a certain ilk become convinced they have magical body parts.

Too sad and disgusting.

It is one thing to announce it at CLW in Los Angeles and another thing to bring it before the whole fellowship and to not beat around the bush and bare everything, the whole truth. A lot of members are afraid to come forward due to the dismissive arrogant attitude of shepherd to the sheep. It is ok if the sheep get hurt as long as it does not get out that we are less than perfect. How many people would trust Amy Sayer or any one that has been in leadership for awhile. Maybe they would trust one of the Dempsters or John and Emily Choate or a Jeremy and Saralyn Richardson. However trust issues are extreme as we all know and it looks like we here have them running scared. Maybe the leadership should go into intense fasting and repentance and do the whole sackcloth and ashes bit publically. I guess I will believe this when I see a deep nature change that is more than smoke and mirrors. Probably when pigs fly

AND IN OUR CONTINUING SERIES ENTITLED, "A LITANY OF ABUSE" . . .


Atonement – Confession and Sanctification
September 16, 2018 - by Gary Hargrave


". . . we are reaching for the reality of sanctification and to see the Lord reveal to us the root of our transgression."

"We start the process of our complete sanctification by refusing to deceive ourselves and by being open to His voice about what it is we need to confess."

Well, I take it people again here do not want face their perpetuators.

We are in the "ME TOO" era guys. This is a unique opportunity and I am saddened that no one wants to be part of what could be huge change. I'm not saying anyone of us would go back - OF COURSE NOT! But knowing what we know, I would think that at least some of you would want to seize the opportunity to possibly make it better for the people that remain! The young 3rd & 4th generation kids have no idea the kinds of things that went on! They have blinders on as all of us did and they only know this place - we need to help open their eyes.

This is sad, I'm not saying that anyone should have to be in a room alone with the people that hurt them, but I do think a massive amount of healing could occur just by writing it out and letting those people see it. Anonymity is absolutely allowed. But there I see no reason to not do this. If they don't change - then fine - but I want to at least try to be part of the solution.

This is basically what I wanted to do a year ago when I asked if anyone here would be willing to send letters in together as a group. Now they are actually ASKING for it!! From everyone - the current members and former members. I've never witnessed them ever caring or even mentioning former members - because, as you know, once you leave CLW you have "blown out of the body of Christ" and therefore do not exist. This is different.

What are you afraid of? Really? Most people here said that they still had family in the church and that is why they didn't want to do it. Well now they want the information!

What they told me was that Amy Sayer is the main person to connect with on this. However, I could to talk to whomever I might be comfortable with.

My guess is that Amy is in for a huge surprise, she is not much older than me and I imagine she has no idea the kinds of things that went on before she was born! I'm guessing more people will leave once things come to light for the general population.

I called a friend yesterday that I went to COL with and she said that her parents told her a similar thing. Except that Gary apparently does not want to be in charge anymore. Maybe he is sincere in wanting to make amends, maybe he isn't. But I will not remain silent when this window is open.


Here is her info in case anyone does decide to write in. If you are truly scared, I would be willing to send your letters myself from my addresses. PM me and I will give you my address and send them in if you want to be completely anonymous.
But don't miss this opportunity to possibly help the next generation's eyes open!

If you want to contact someone else that you are more comfortable with, do it!
If you want to be completely anonymous - send me a letter here and I will copy and paste and send it in without any information attached.

[Never post contact information on this message board. It is against the rules agreed to before you began posting here. Use the private messaging system provided.]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2018 09:19PM by rrmoderator.

To whom it may concern:

No one must follow any proscribed path to recovery. Some of you have sought out research and professionals that have experience in dealing with cults for counseling and assistance and others have not.

Each person will manage their own situation, in their own way and either decide to attend a church, not attend a church, receive counseling or not, etc.

The point that I wish to make regarding kBoy is that he has apparently done little if any research and is either inferring or blaming the victims of a destructive cult for the damage done to them by predatory leaders. He was also using this thread to preach his own views.

That's not what this thread is for and victim bashing, no matter how subtle, is not acceptable here.

Having said that I get that everyone has their own space and that each person has their own place in terms of the damage they have experienced, how that damage has is being processed and what stage of recovery they are in now.

But there are some proven and helpful recovery approaches that have helped many, many people, e.g. education about cults and the coercive persuasion techniques that they use and therapy/counseling with a licensed professional who understands the cult phenomenon.

If someone on this thread doesn't want to read the research, refuses professional help and rejects what other former cult members have learned that's their choice. But they will not be allowed to use this thread to make others feel guilty by inferring that they are somehow to blame for the abuse they experienced.

That's just plain wrong and without any basis in fact.

Everyone on this thread must know, or can see by going through this thread that I have very rarely posted here. In fact, I rarely moderate at the message board in recent years due to my work schedule. I came in response to repeated complaints about kBoy.

Use of the database is free and if people don't want to use it that's fine.

My point is it's not OK to use this thread to pontificate and infer that people are somehow responsible for the abuse they experienced in a destructive cult.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2018 08:08PM by rrmoderator.

Road to Damascus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is one thing to announce it at CLW in Los
> Angeles and another thing to bring it before the
> whole fellowship and to not beat around the bush
> and bare everything, the whole truth. A lot of
> members are afraid to come forward due to the
> dismissive arrogant attitude of shepherd to the
> sheep.

Yes, and Gary is afraid, and looking for a way out of this situation to escape culpability. It's understandable. Creating yet another cosmetic 'I'm dealing with the abuse' scenario is a PR move, buying him time before he completely separates himself from this ugly mess. As many here have pointed out, he's had countless opportunities to make things right, going back to his assumption of power (along with Marilyn) in '83. Not only has he not done it, he's repeatedly placed the blame on the victims, not the perpetrators. I'm not questioning howmidoing's motivation. She obviously believes this is a good faith effort on the part of TLWF leadership to make amends for past behavior and disappointed people are not jumping at the opportunity to be involved. Extensive TLWF history suggests otherwise. It's most likely an information gathering exercise, used to help plot the next strategic moves of protecting the church and its leadership.
Anyway...everyone have a great Sunday. Maybe do something different, like skip church and hike a nature trail. Or just be with family--real family :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2018 09:37PM by changedagain.

TLW church sign:
It's a New Day!!
But Nothing Will Change

This request for feedback by TLWF from former members has my distrust alarms going off. While I certainly have plenty to write about, I doubt that I will send anything in. For three basic reasons:

1. I suspect they are merely collecting evidence to better prepare TLW to defend themselves legally. Why give them that advantage?

2. Past performance by TLW suggests that this request is not sincere and that nothing will change.

3. Amy Sayer is a Phyllis clone. I trust her about as far as I can throw a bus.