I’m encouraged by Gary’s efforts to reach out to the Catholic Church. Hopefully, it will also begin to extend to other Christian groups that could really be a blessing to TLWF. I think if you were to look objectively at John’s lesson on Babylon in the First Principles, he did not view Catholics, or anyone else that disagreed with him, in the same light as Gary is now advocating. It would appear to be a sign of progress. John’s word was considered infallible, even though it was said he was not. However, a good way to be escorted out the door was to try and point out areas of fallibility – even if they were causing hurt to others. Gary would never say that John was wrong in his view of the Catholic Church, but actions do speak louder than words.

Along the same line, I remember John saying that you might as well spend your time studying the patterns on linoleum tile as getting a college education. That was well received by anti-establishment hippies at the time who thought the kingdom was dawning in 1979. I suspect they would view it differently after a few decades of lower income potential and no kingdom as they envisioned it at the time. I’ve noticed that now most of their kids, including those of the leadership, do attend college after their parents have had the opportunity to view the fruit of those “words from God”. Shiloh is now a university, if that is any indication of how the other worked out.

I have a friend, David Stang, who is a retired Catholic priest with many contacts in Brazil and he views the Rio Archbishop favorably because of his concern for the poor – much like Pope Francis. David’s sister, Dorothy Stang, a Catholic nun, was murdered by wealthy ranchers while trying to help the poor in Brazil. She became the focal point for many protests in Brazil. Brazil is unique within the Catholic Church because of the openness to Liberation Theology – something much of the Catholic Church does not accept. Basically it is the idea that the Church should become involved in practically caring for the poor. The conflict comes because it is driven more by the compassion of the lay people than the direction of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. Pope Francis may seem wonderful to most of the western world, but he has been very upsetting to the power base within the Catholic Church because of his genuine efforts to care for the poor. “Who cares what Jesus taught, our focus is on power and wealth!” is unfortunately the thinking of the hierarchical form of Christianity – something Jesus warned against. Jesus separated the sheep from the goats by how they practically treated the “least of these” – something all of us should not lose sight of.

When Pope Francis appointed Dom Orani Joao Tempesta as a Cardinal, he sent him a note that said, “The cardinalship does not imply promotion; it is neither an honor nor a decoration; it is simply a service that requires you to broaden your gaze and open your hearts.... Therefore I ask you, please, to receive this designation with a simple and humble heart. And, while you must do so with pleasure and joy, ensure that this sentiment is far from any expression of worldliness or from any form of celebration contrary to the evangelical spirit of austerity, sobriety and poverty.” In contrast, the report by Silas seemed to highlight the fact that they were VIPs – rather than servants with “simple and humble hearts”. Perhaps a relationship with the Cardinal will help open their eyes to what it really means to be a Christ follower and in turn they can truly be an instrument of oneness.

larry bobo wrote in part:

“In contrast, the report by Silas seemed to highlight the fact that they were VIPs – rather than servants with “simple and humble hearts”. Perhaps a relationship with the Cardinal will help open their eyes to what it really means to be a Christ follower and in turn they can truly be an instrument of oneness.”

------------

Thank you for saying the above. I hope Silas reads the posts on this forum and gets a clue.

FCSLC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> larry bobo wrote in part:
>
> “In contrast, the report by Silas seemed to
> highlight the fact that they were VIPs – rather
> than servants with “simple and humble hearts”.
> Perhaps a relationship with the Cardinal will
> help open their eyes to what it really means to be
> a Christ follower and in turn they can truly be an
> instrument of oneness.”
>
> ------------
>
> Thank you for saying the above. I hope Silas
> reads the posts on this forum and gets a clue.

I don't think the Cardinal would too pleased with Silas' report, especially with lines like this one:

"Personally greeted at the parking entrance, Hargrave and Esteves were treated like VIPs as they were led inside and given backstage passes to the event."

In spite of what may have been hoped to be good intentions on the part of TLW, they pretty much showed their cards, not only in the tone of this account, but also in similar accounts like this at the same time last year. As was then, so was now, a pretty shameless focus on self promotion rather than a focus on the message.

The G-man revels in the accolades he receives in Brazil that are in stark contrast to those so blatantly absent in the States. It would not be so surprising that the days ahead see him relocate where the adoring crowds can sustain his VIP status, and where he can possibly pick up a girl from Ipanema along the way.

larry bobo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’m encouraged by Gary’s efforts to reach out
> to the Catholic Church. Hopefully, it will also
> begin to extend to other Christian groups that
> could really be a blessing to TLWF. I think if
> you were to look objectively at John’s lesson on
> Babylon in the First Principles, he did not view
> Catholics, or anyone else that disagreed with him,
> in the same light as Gary is now advocating. It
> would appear to be a sign of progress. John’s
> word was considered infallible, even though it was
> said he was not. However, a good way to be
> escorted out the door was to try and point out
> areas of fallibility – even if they were causing
> hurt to others. Gary would never say that John
> was wrong in his view of the Catholic Church, but
> actions do speak louder than words.
>
> Along the same line, I remember John saying that
> you might as well spend your time studying the
> patterns on linoleum tile as getting a college
> education. That was well received by
> anti-establishment hippies at the time who thought
> the kingdom was dawning in 1979. I suspect they
> would view it differently after a few decades of
> lower income potential and no kingdom as they
> envisioned it at the time. I’ve noticed that
> now most of their kids, including those of the
> leadership, do attend college after their parents
> have had the opportunity to view the fruit of
> those “words from God”. Shiloh is now a
> university, if that is any indication of how the
> other worked out.
>
> I have a friend, David Stang, who is a retired
> Catholic priest with many contacts in Brazil and
> he views the Rio Archbishop favorably because of
> his concern for the poor – much like Pope
> Francis. David’s sister, Dorothy Stang, a
> Catholic nun, was murdered by wealthy ranchers
> while trying to help the poor in Brazil. She
> became the focal point for many protests in
> Brazil. Brazil is unique within the Catholic
> Church because of the openness to Liberation
> Theology – something much of the Catholic Church
> does not accept. Basically it is the idea that
> the Church should become involved in practically
> caring for the poor. The conflict comes because
> it is driven more by the compassion of the lay
> people than the direction of the hierarchy of the
> Catholic Church. Pope Francis may seem wonderful
> to most of the western world, but he has been very
> upsetting to the power base within the Catholic
> Church because of his genuine efforts to care for
> the poor. “Who cares what Jesus taught, our
> focus is on power and wealth!” is unfortunately
> the thinking of the hierarchical form of
> Christianity – something Jesus warned against.
> Jesus separated the sheep from the goats by how
> they practically treated the “least of these”
> – something all of us should not lose sight of.
>
> When Pope Francis appointed Dom Orani Joao
> Tempesta as a Cardinal, he sent him a note that
> said, “The cardinalship does not imply
> promotion; it is neither an honor nor a
> decoration; it is simply a service that requires
> you to broaden your gaze and open your hearts....
> Therefore I ask you, please, to receive this
> designation with a simple and humble heart. And,
> while you must do so with pleasure and joy, ensure
> that this sentiment is far from any expression of
> worldliness or from any form of celebration
> contrary to the evangelical spirit of austerity,
> sobriety and poverty.” In contrast, the report
> by Silas seemed to highlight the fact that they
> were VIPs – rather than servants with “simple
> and humble hearts”. Perhaps a relationship with
> the Cardinal will help open their eyes to what it
> really means to be a Christ follower and in turn
> they can truly be an instrument of oneness.


So you are ok with the Catholics calling the priest "father" and the Pope "Holy Father"? Don't they also pray to Mother Mary. Not trying to make an issue with this, but... I'm not condemning the Catholics or anyone else and their beliefs, but maybe just a little consistency on your part.

I remember later on after the First Pricipals, John said we were closer to the Catholics than say the Pentecostal denomination.

SouthGate - I would not personally call a priest or Gary “Father”. Jesus said to call no man “Father”. Our Father is in heaven. The same would be true for praying to Mary or Marilyn. The fact that others do this is between them and God. He is the only one that really knows their hearts and the only one that they will have to give an account to. The term Christian means Christ-like. I happen to place more weight on the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit in someone’s life than on a correct doctrinal belief system lacking good fruit. The authority structures of the Catholic Church and TLWF are very similar. Within those structures I’m sure you will find good and bad people. I would suggest the top down management style is just typical of human nature. I’m not even saying it’s a bad thing – it is just that God tends to do the opposite of what humans would do. To be the servant of all, like Jesus, takes Divine input. When I see someone who genuinely cares for the poor, I know God is at work – especially when they are a Cardinal in the Catholic Church.

“Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter – when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard. Then you will call, and the Lord will answer; you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.” Isaiah 58:6-9

Catholicism--One man at the head of that religious conglomerate does not begin to erase centuries of domination, harm and abuse, nor legitimize a belief structure no less insane than the cult we all came out of. Francis is about as infallible and holy as Stevens was. No pope or cardinal ever came to power because of his spirit of austerity, sobriety and poverty. Take a look at the Vatican. Simple and humble hearts, indeed. For publicity purposes Francis can send notes all day long pretending that the Catholic hierarchy is about something other than promotion, honor, and decoration, but that is not reality. Catholicism's legacy is a grab for power and money through corruption, greed, oppression. There is no reason to think that has changed. No one, including Hargrave, should look to the Catholic Church for morality. The Catholic Church is no better than the walk. It has just lasted a lot longer.

[www.equip.org]

Catholicism isn't a cult. I was raised Catholic. It's not anywhere close to the mind rape, rigid control and unquestioning submission of LW. Please read the link.

larry bobo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’m encouraged by Gary’s efforts to reach out
> to the Catholic Church. Hopefully, it will also
> begin to extend to other Christian groups that
> could really be a blessing to TLWF.

Couldn't hurt. Less fellowship isolation. Big improvement over G&M outreach to cult leader moron Todd Bentley.

Wow. Catholic advocacy in this forum. Just. Wow.