Thanks for sharing this account.

TheSarge Wrote:
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> In reading Lorena's quote, to be fair, she didn't
> say she helped create the Christmas truck. The
> musicians were sitting around, getting drunk,
> thinking about JRS, and went out. No planning, no
> thinking of anything in ministering to the
> neighborhood. In fact, they just said they were
> from That Studio and never mentioned The Living
> Word. It stayed that way. Just a bunch of
> "friends" doing a "thing." And it grew as the
> neighborhoods contacted That Studio. Then it went
> commercial, as all things Christmas tends to do
> when people are about glory to themselves. There
> are those who participate that have a heart of the
> season and genuinely care about the people who are
> starry eyed with the glitz as part of their
> celebration. But make no mistake: this has never
> been about the community. Eventually the route
> was made to accommodate celebrities like Denzel
> Washington. The truck would stay in front of his
> house upwards to 15 minutes. No was allowed to
> talk to him except who Rick said could. Then they
> started doing community Christmas parades in
> Sherman Oaks and Burbank. They always contacted
> the news to come film and do a bit. It made it a
> staple. Lorena's involvement probably started as
> an elf or a dancer. I was involved behind the
> scenes for years. But after a couple of years, I
> was told if I walked next to the truck, I wasn't
> allowed to talk to the people -- only designated
> people were allowed so the same thing was being
> said. Heavily controlled media spectacle! When
> folks in Shiloh wanted to do the same thing, Rick
> shut it down.

Chaos1952 Wrote:
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> I have made a discovery about myself that has been
> a breakthrough for me tonight, and I thought I
> might share it. I have discovered that I have
> been mad at John Stevens for thirty years or so
> because he didn't make arrangements for someone
> responsible enough to be over the Living Word
> church after he died. I guess he perhaps he
> didn't think he would die, I don't know.
>
> Anyway, I feel a lot of freedom tonight. I
> believe it is good for you when you get to the
> root of things. It is not good to wallow in
> bitterness forever. It is also not good for you
> to repress anger, it is good to let it out. When
> someone is dead, it is a little difficult to get
> your anger out at them. It is better to feel the
> emotion. But then there comes a time when you can
> forgive someone, it is best to do so.

I love that you said this. I wasn't mad at JRS for the same reason as you, but I did rant at him for a long time for other things. I also ranted at God! I realized that I could because He was my Father and I his child, and a good healthy discussion would be appropriate! HA

> She talked of the traditions that their little
> idea sparked.

That's the source of the confusion. I read this sentence as though 'their' was referring to Rick and Lorena, rather than Rick and others (not mentioned).

Paul, I have always respected your insights. In my mind, you are a prophet in the true sense. God speaks through you. I have always believed in a Universal Church -- no one denomination nor doctrine had the whole pie. Every joint supplies. From my background, I searched on my own long and hard for a minute-by-minute relationship with God. I started attending LW because at the time it was in line with my belief system. When it no longer was, I left. JRS spoke of living every promise in the Scriptures made by God that we could have. still am seeking fulfillment of those promises. It's MY walk with God, not a group's. I still seek confirmation, but not from designated relationships. God is good at confirming his Word to us. He did it with Moses, Noah, Samuel, etc. He can with me.

Paul Trowbridge Wrote:
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> I have a personal witness that similar revelation
> does come independently to various groups who have
> no connection to each other. I married a woman
> from the Ukraine that told me how when the Iron
> Curtain fell (and many of us prayed faithfully
> through the seventies and eighties that it would
> fall). That first eastern religion and occult
> teachings came to the Ukraine, but afterwards
> Bibles started coming in, then Evangilists. Her
> own experience was with a Church where several of
> them, including her, started getting specific
> revelation of the restoration of the New Testament
> Church. When I met her I was amazed at the nearly
> exact revelation her Ukraine church moved in as we
> did in the "Walk," years ago. God speaks to many
> people in the earth, it is what they do with that
> message we are sorting out.
>
> My experience in the "Walk," pointed to one thing:
> Men can know God, and know His voice, yet it
> takes eternal seeking of His face, God does not
> reveal Himself to the spiritually indolent
> (Laodicia). Some of the testimony here makes me
> think we are missing the point. Are we suprised
> men are weak? Are we suprised the flesh can still
> win the battles, in anyone, no matter their
> spiritual achievments? The central message of
> John Stevens was always "That I may follow on to
> know the Lord." It is good that the Walk
> disentigrated, because most of us, me included,
> were just in a movement, we were not seeking God
> with the desperation many of us had when we first
> came to God. Few happy and satisfied people fall
> into salvation. It is the lame the halt and the
> blind, but what is more is you know you still are.
> I am not too concerned about what Gary and
> Marilyn are doing or have done...What have I done?
> I feel like I have barely even scratched the
> surface in knowing what I should know.
>
> Think of the restoration leaders in the past, men
> that were burned at the stake, hunted and
> persecuted to death, the truth is hard-won, very
> hard won.

JRS had several doctrinal influences in his belief system (as do pretty much everyone!) Folks are focusing on the Latter Rain Movement. But he was strongly influenced by Aimee Semple McPherson as well. His family moved to L.A. for his father to study in her College (reminescent of Shiloh University) to become a better minister. JRS as a child sat at Sister Aimee's feet and was great drawn to her charisma, preaching style, laying on of hands, etc. But he didn't become Four Square. His brother-in-law, Paul Mickelson, was the music director there. He was also adhered to the Azuza Street Revival movement. Parousia, healings, outpouring of the Holy Spirit, intercession. He spoke of how God would lead him to maybe only one page or one paragraph of a whole book. Then his voracious reading of many forms of spiritual belief added a more universal concept in his teachings. All this became the primorial soup from which sprung The Living Word.

Chaos1952 Wrote:
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> I have been doing a little study of where John
> Robert Stevens actually got most of the message he
> taught. The message of the manifest sons of God
> is not anything that origionated with him. JRS
> could be classified as a radical Latter Rain
> adherent, in that he believed and taught the
> manifest sons of God message. If you trace down
> all the adherants of that theology, you will find
> a lot of this shepherding in the various
> fellowships. It seems to always evolve to the
> same thing. I don't know that it HAS TO, but it
> seems to, at least up until now. The belief that
> spiritual Gifts can be simply imparted to people
> that don't have very much depth of the word, and
> by "word," I mean the bible, and to people that
> have not sought God with all their heart, and gone
> through a work of the cross, and by "work of the
> cross," I don't mean standing in a circle and
> interceding for the leader, and speaking against a
> the devil, when the devil is no doubt perfectly
> content with what is going on and is no doubt not
> "coming against" anybody IN THAT particular
> fellowship.
>
> If you google Latter Rain and take a look at the
> various churches that espouse that theology, they
> ALL deny involvement, though most don't claim the
> God told them not to get involved. If God did
> tell John Stevens not to get involved with it,
> then I am at a loss as to why he did get involved,
> and to the point that he did.
>
> The moderator told me that we could discuss Latter
> Rain, as long as it is briefly and then to get
> back on subject. I am not going to say any more
> about it, other than to encourage all of you to
> google it, and then to research the prophetic
> movement, the apostolic restoration movement, the
> manifest sons of God, Joel's army, shepherding,
> the whole thing is out there, and it is has been
> going on since the late 1940s along with and right
> beside the Living Word Fellowship. It is nothing
> new.

Yea, verily, Saw Enough.

John Miller had a walk God before going to Coniah Chapel. He followed John as he believed him to be a true apostolic ministry. He lead the intercession because he believed in the power of prayer, not because JRS commissioned him to. His allegiance was always to God and seeing His Kingdom come. After JRS' death, John was devastated, but he continued to be a beacon of faith and a shepherd's heart to those scattered, devastated, confused, and lost in the wake of it. I believe in light of his being removed from the Apostolic Company, as shepherd of a local church (San Diego), and then summarily booted out, G&M were showing their fear that John might be too strong a plumbline and memory of God's Word in the earth and he would splinter off with the faithful. I am convinced he is the same today, although I haven't spoken to him since Carol Pipkin's memorial service. I love that man and what he represents as a Christian.

Saw enough Wrote:
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> I doubt that John Miller is one to feel sorry for
> himself. He has served the Lord to the best of
> his knowledge and been told that he is obsolete
> for Gary & Marilyn's purposes. He's not the first
> one, or the last, to be on the receiving end of
> Marilyn's anger, but he still has his life ahead
> of him and he can use his remaining energy to
> focus on the life he chooses to live rather than
> worrying about Marilyn & Gary's disapproval.
>
>
>
> A kingdom founded on injustice never lasts.
> Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Yes, she did. However, I had some involvement with Martha, her children, etc. In the earlier days of their marriage, they were both declared to be Apostles. She used to preach in the churches, too. Near the end of their marriage, I was aware that she was "embezzling" money from the churches. She drove a fancy car, she dressed ostentatiously, rarely came to services, and snubbed the common folk. In the divorce, she raised issues about money to discredit JRS, not because there was a bona fide claim. To her death, she continued to play the martyr and victim, when she really wanted John to be a televangelist and rake in millions so she could live the high life. When he refused that, she got greedy.

paleface Wrote:
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> Didn't Martha outlive John by about 10 years?
> Maybe it was that old "boomerang principle" in
> action. I guess God ignored all that intercession
> to "kill the neph".

Invisible, I'm not completely sure where you got this information, but I was there and remember it differently. I believe he had three ceremonies across the US and it as called The Rainbow Connection. I thought the Anaheim ceremony was on October 4, 1980. To make sure, I went to Ancestry.Com and searched JRS' divorce and marriage records. Here are the results:

Divorce:
Name: John R Stevens
Spouse Name: Martha K
Location: Los Angeles
Date: 25 Jul 1980

Marriage:
Name: John R Stevens
Gender: Male
Birth Year: abt 1919
Age: 61
Marriage Date: 8 Sep 1980
Marriage Place: Los Angeles, California, USA
Spouse Name: Marilyn L Cleland Holbrook
Spouse Age: 41



Invisible Wrote:
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> John and Martha Stevens were divorced in October
> of 1980 .
>
> Around March of 1981 John and Marilyn were
> privately and secretly married and a small
> reception was held secretly at one of the other
> houses John owned, where about 20 guests or so
> were invited to attend the reception..
>
> We, the two of us were invited to attend their
> wedding reception, on the same day of the
> reception. When called by those holding the
> reception who were inviting us to attend, we were
> told not to tell any one that John & Marilyn had
> married or about the reception that was held.
>
> We were personally surprised ourselves - to learn
> through this invitation to attend this reception
> that John and Marilyn had gotten married, earlier
> that day.
>
> John and Marilyn were already secretly married -
> when John many months later announced from the
> pulpit, that he and Marilyn were considering, "
> beginning " a relationship with one another, and
> then John after some time, next announced that he
> and Marilyn had become engaged and then not too
> long after this, John lastly announced to the
> congregation the date that they were going to be
> married - inviting all of the members from all
> the churches to attend their wedding at the Church
> Of His Holy Presence in Anaheim.
>
> John and Marilyn, were already married for many,
> many months - prior to the wedding ceremony held
> at the Church of His Holy Presence in Anaheim, Ca.
>
> ------------
>
> To me the real point here is - that people put on
> a show - in order to make you believe what they
> want you to think and believe.
>
> Many years later, It crossed my mind that the
> reception " itself" could have been another show
> they were putting on -possibly putting on - for
> just a few of those, who were invited to the
> reception. Why would some one invite you to a
> reception without inviting you to the wedding? Why
> would people marry in secret and put on a show to
> make every one think - they were just getting
> married -- when they were already married?
>
> In my opinion there are a few lessons to learn
> from this experience - and just one, of those
> lessons is - what you see taking place - may not
> always be - what is really taking place.

And all this was done in front of his son, who publicly supported what Gary said. Bob was a fabulous man, psalmist, intercessor who did not deserve that epitaph nor public denouncement. I did not condone that belief set.

changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Invisible Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I remember how when one member died an early
> death
> > - not suicide - his heart just gave out - I
> > remember how the leader of the church , took a
> > position at that man's memorial service to
> > carrying on emotionally voicing how angry and
> > upset he was with this man who died , for
> not
> > having walked in the word over his life. He
> was
> > voicing to the members of the church that this
> man
> > was a spiritual failure.
>
> The man who died of heart failure was a friend of
> mine. His name was Bob. The man who broke the news
> of his death (during a church service in the
> Valley), and labeled him a failure, was Gary.
> BTW, I know how this affected you, because I am
> aware of who you are.

Paleface, if all he said doesn't set with you, then by all means reject it! I found many truths in his preaching. Not all of it set with me, so I rejected it. I sifted, sorted, evaluated based on my spiritual filter. Does that make me right? Who's to say. I can only be true to myself and my relationship with God. I think we all strive to do that for ourselves. I commend you!

paleface Wrote:
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> Which ultimately leads to this question: what do
> you accept of JRS as true and correct? Is it
> like rat poison? 90% solid and true and 10% off?
>
> I'm inclined to simply reject it all.