I feel nothing but outrage over the word on hierarchy. As Reveal so eloquently pointed out, hierarchy is the fabric of TLWF.

The part of it that really gets to me is that what Gary is doing here is basically acknowledging that up until now, the church has operated on a hierarchy. That hierarchy was put in place to directly benefit the people at the top, at the sacrifice of the common people.

Remember the words that used to come on "position thinking"? That was the leadership saying "Nope! No hierarchy here!". When people would come to them and complain "Hey, there is this strange double standard for the leadership, and this thing seems to be arranged around the benefit of the people at the top. That feels wrong". Those objections would be met with "Hey, that's not true. You're guilty of position thinking right now". They took the objections of well meaning people, and turned them back on them. Saying that the wrong they saw was all a result of something they were doing, not the leadership. To user a modern term: it's victim blaming.

And now we've come in to a "new day". Well what about the "old day"? Are you going to talk about that? I know a lot of the current word is about people being able to "speak up". Is that really what they want? Because there is a whole forum of people here "speaking up", and they act like it doesn't exist.

Regardless of whatever Gary Hargrave is saying in this word, he's still got to build a system that is beneficial to Rick Holbrook. Rick is like a zoo animal, he could never make it in the wild. His broken moral compass has been supported by TLWF for so long, that he has become dependent on it. No matter what, the system has to work to support Rick, and excuse all his missteps. No one in their right mind would speak up about the myriad of things Rick does that are messed up, because they know the cost. There is no "higher confirmation" with Rick. He's at the top, and you better be okay with what he does, or else. He doesn't even pretend to be a pastor looking after the people. That guy treats TLWF like his play thing, and the Rayen Resort is his pleasure island.

Cultfree - Beautifully stated.

G&M knew all about Rick's crimes. They had to approve the financial shenanigans and they reinstrated Rick as the little emperor over L.A. every time they set him aside for a few minutes - maybe even weeks - after knowledge of an affair became public. When Rick's first affair with Lorena (when she was underage) became public the members of TLW CRIED to the leadership to please not put Rick back in authority. But within a very short time he was back in to his position and back on to his next victim.

Most of the people with knowledge of the events have been removed. Some have left. Either way, it is as if those people (loyal, dedicated people) never existed.

Hopefully we are changing that by letting our voices be heard.

After an indiscretion, not only do they reinstate Rick. But they allow him to continue to have a young female personal assistant. WTF is wrong with these people ??!! That’s insane !!!

And now we have a leadership council of 11 people over TLWF. And one of them is Rick. This won’t work. Rick has to be king. He can’t work with others (unless he can be the boss). Strange days are ahead for those in the LW.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2018 05:59AM by puddington.

People always had problems with Rick, but they knew they couldn't speak up about it, because he was Marilyn's son, and no one was going to dare criticize Marilyn's little boy.

Rick and Lorena were always an issue. I'd be willing to bet that everyone who was ever around them had a sort of icky feeling about them. Their relationship just didn't feel right; especially considering Rick's track record of infidelity, stealing his friend's wives, and other morally corrupt actions. Everyone felt icky about Rick and Lorena (even going way back to when she was in high school), and there is reason for that: because it was icky. It was a fucked up situation that we were all expected to simply ignore. His wife knew it, his parents knew it, and the entire congregation knew it. They tried to ship her off to Shiloh to deal with it, but soon enough she was back, wiggling her way in to a place of power that she always wanted. Talk about girls turn it off. All of this was protected by Gary, Marilyn, and the rest of the church leadership.

Finally, when people couldn't take it anymore, someone blew the whistle on it, and Gary and Marilyn couldn't ignore it any more. They had to address it. Of course they never actually said what had happened, they just barely acknowledged it, and we were all expected to move on. Not too long after, we discovered that Rick was back in charge, and we had to accept it. No acknowledgement of wrong doing, no repentance for subjecting us all to their lie for so long; things just went back to the way they always were.

I share this anecdote only because I feel like it has never been fully articulated publicly. It's a disgusting display of corruption, and I want it to be out there for people to understand.

Does anyone else have anything to add to this?

Yes I can add to it. You articulated it beautifully. Thank you.

G&M and many shepherds were aware of what Rick was doing and has been doing since the 70's. Lorena is wife #4 but he followed his standard procedure on each of the 3 former wives. Those in a place of authority who could do anything about it were always shut down and silenced by G&M.

Historically ApCo members would be brought in to help in the situations by talking to and appeasing the congregants. None of them, however, were ever given any authority or backing to do anything about Rick. Once the furor died down, those brought in to place a bandage on the enormous isse, would be sent back to their homes with no information on what would be done. And yes, each time Rick was put back into his position of ruling over Los Angeles within a very short time.

Even while engaging in these affairs that resulted in marriages, Rick has been having sexual relations with other young girls and G&M have always known that as well.

This isn't a little thing. It isn't a one or two time occurrence. And it happens in a lot of different locations -- wherever Rick has access.

I have learned of some of the girls he tried to lure in. I amk not at liberty to name names. He starts by pulling a girl close, keeping her around day and night, and talking in graphic detail about sex - that's his procedure for grooming his victims. Then he goes in for the kill. Sometimes he is successful and sometimes he is rejected. He retaliates harshly against those who reject him which also helps him convince his prey that the right thing for them to do is to do whatever Rick wants them to do.

The responsibility for all of this damage is with the leadership who allowed it and Rick. I suggest that from a legal viewpoint this was all an intentional act of blatant disregard for harm being done to young girls and women who deserved under the law to be protected and the acts were required to be reported by clergy. Why didn't someone call and report it? No one did.

It would be interesting to know why all the clergy involved felt they did not have to report the child abuse under the mandatory reporting laws. The church ordained hundreds of people thru the years for the specific purpose of protecting information from disclosure (trying to use the confessional story) but that is just silly in the context of how the walk did everything. People were publicly humiliated all the time.

There is no answer for all of this. It is just wrong. I am working with some people who want to take action and if anyone else is interested in getting involved with this, please PM me. Identities can be protected.

Apparently David Koresh's (of Waco Cult fame) 1968 Camaro is for sale. Should we take a special offering so Gary can buy it? ;-)

https://www.motor1.com/news/262744/waco-david-koresh-camaro-for-sale/

NickleandDimed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to my sources. Gary's saying some of the
> couples. Whose family members. Post on the Cult
> Institute Message Board. Are asking to be sent to
> Brazil. He said KS almost had a nervous breakdown.
> When she read what her mom has been posting. Gary
> said the Cult Institute attorney poster. Who said
> the LW attorney is incompetent. Gary said. That
> poster was disbarred. From practicing law. For
> incompetence. And ripping off eight clients.
>
> Don't shoot the messenger.

OOPs I mean Who is Ks?

changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GoingRogue Wrote:
>
> > GH: "This Word asks us one question that opens
> the
> > door to the new day: Are our actions and
> methods
> > in alignment with our beliefs?... Are we
> running
> > in vain? Are we missing the mark?... We BEGIN
> this
> > journey...."
> >
> > Congregation: Better late than never, I guess.
>
> I have to admire this man's tenacity...constantly
> pounding the theme of obedience & the Lordship of
> Christ into the congregation. Never letting up.
> The power of repetition reinforces the concept
> that the purpose of your life is to give up your
> entire being to him, as 'Christ in the
> flesh.' Perverse. The fact that this approach has
> born no fruit for 40+ years is a glaring sign that
> God has had nothing to do with it. Continuing down
> this path is a guarantee you'll be 'running in
> vain' & 'missing the mark'--while subjecting
> yourself to needless misery. Reclaim your lives!
> This guy is NOT God. He's not even a good man.

He is not God and is a really sick and weak and tiny little man. He would crumble without his worshippers and their money. And every penny he has Is/was their money--millions of dollars and assets-- taken from their future, their hopes and dreams, and their family vacations to Hawaii or elsewhere, their vacation homes, boats, children's inheritance--all to fund his wealth and lavish lifestyle. He is a sicko and can't stand it when anything is said --yes behind psuedo-identities because he is a vicious person. And he makes up shit.

-------------------------------------------------------
> Onion Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > ...
> >
> > Gary wanted to know if the walk ministries
> could
> > avoid this requirement under the
> clergy-penitent
> > privilege exercised by the Catholic church to
> > protect them from having to communicate what
> was
> > heard in the confessional. I believe G&M had
> > gotten some legal input that yes, the church
> > ministries would be protected from having to
> > report what was learned in the form of a
> > confession.... > > The walk churches response to this issue was to
> > officially/formally ordain everyone they could
> > think of so that those people could claim
> > privilege and not be "confused" about what they
> > might have heard or about their responsibility
> to
> > report various issues to the authorities.
> >
> > This was very confusing to me back then
> although,
> > sadly, I think I have a better understanding
> now
> > for what the motivation was at that time. Now
> I'm
> > not confused, just deeply disgusted....
> >
>
>
> I have to say that this new revelation is shocking
> and digusting. Mandatory reporting is for
> reporting various kinds of abuse of children and
> others. I'm having a hard time understanding the
> purpose of not wanting to report known abusers.
>
> Possibly they wanted abusers to confess. The
> information could then be used to control those
> people? Or they would have had to report too many
> pastors and apostles? Or it could have made the
> church look bad in some way? I'm at a loss

How else do you keep child molesters from going to jail?

rrmoderator Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kBOY:
>
> The rules of this message specifically state no
> preaching of beliefs.
>
> This thread is for discussion about John Robert
> Stevens and Living Word Fellowship, not your
> personal views and beliefs.
>
> Please refrain from such posts in the future per
> the rules that you agreed to before you began
> posting here

Mister Moderator. I think most people who have been in the walk understand the poem from KBoy to mean. We were always told that the shepherd was to serve the sheep (hence love) But in the walk, those were just words, the shepherd in LW was served without question. It was called the upward flow. So I believe that was what the little poem was actually saying to us--it was being sarcastic of that -- the walk preached love --love that was all about service to the leader--who was God to the sheep. It was drilled into us. Just sayin...