First off, I enjoy being able to express myself, but, per the comments of Mr. Ross and corboy, this may not be an appropriate forum in which to do so. If so, then I apologize (or I will eventually be deleted, so no harm done). I am not interested in changing your perceptions. I simply enjoy writing.
That being said...

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finnster
Hi Moishe3rd,

If you were involved with Sharon and Alex in SF, Boston, and NY then that means you have been with this cult for about 30 years. You said you "liked" them despite their "Obsessive; dominating; and yes, probably dangerous" behavior and since you said "I was involved", I assume you are not involved with them anymore. Then the question is why aren't you involved after being with them for about 30 years, traveling from SF to Boston and NY?

I was in the Theater of All Possibilities in ? '78 and moved with Bob Klein to Boston in ? '80. I later went to New York to be in the plays and go on tour to Europe and Israel. After that, around '83, I was kicked out by one of the other "older" students and I decided that it was time for me to get a life... :)
My wife was kicked out about a year later and we got back together, moving to New Jersey and "got a life..."
We have since created a life; sans "the Work;" sans "School;" and all the rest.
The reason that we aren't involved is because it wasn't helping us; we got kicked out; and we went on to other and more interesting things, like being married and raising a family...

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As a side note, when you say "We do make our own beds. And we do lie in them. ", you may need to acknowledge that applies to situations when you are fully informed about the decisions that you are about to make, which never happens when you're being recruited to a cult.

Well, okay. I understand what you mean - however...
I used to dance and eat with the Hare Krishna's. I meditated on the little fat boy, Guru Maharaji, and recieved the light, snot (oops, nectar), music, etcetera. I attended clasees at Naropa and studied with ? Trungpa Rinpoche. I meditated on the Chen Man Ching school of Tai Chi (which I still practice). I tried to join The Way, a Christian cult, but couldn't understand it. I stopped by the Unification Church meetings, always slipping out the door before the hard pitch... I took Scientology courses... There were probably another bunch of things, but they escape me at the moment...
Oh, and I am currently an "ultra" Orthodox Jew and have been for the last 15 years or so... (Cult? I think not)
The point being is that not only was I "fully informed" when I joined "School," we used to discuss it in School. There was a rather serious series of intense discussions during the flight from SF and the Chronicle articles and Jim Jones. People left. People stayed. People expressed their misgivings.
I also admit that it does sound as if I was involved with Sharon and Alex during a more "benign" phase of their schools. And, I realize that not everyone has the same sort of exploratory nature I had then - which did question most everything.
But then again, I believe that may be the impetus for my initial posts, in that - hey. It just didn't seem so bad to me.

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If a step further is taken to unmask the mental construct that subscribes to "We do make our own beds. And we do lie in them.", then we recognize one of the main principles of influence; "commitment and consistency". When someone makes a commitment (however small it might be), he/she will act consistently with this commitment regardless of their prior beliefs/opinions. Initially having cult recruits make small commitments to certain acts will ensure their participation and open a door to further seemingly reasonable commitments in the name of "higher development", "growing being", etc. to solidify their dependency to the cult. There is so much more to discuss with regards how cults use social psychology (not that they would name it such) to recruite and control their members.
Finnster

Now, you may be correct, but nonetheless, it would seem that this above definition might apply to all spiritual or religious pursuits.
And, I suspect that this is where I delve into heresy on this particular board, I do not believe that most organized religions or spiritual pursuits are cults.
I actually enjoy discussing religion and/or other philosophical ideas with those who have strongly held opinions on the "rightness" of their religion or cause. In spite of my strongly held beliefs on Judaism, I have no problem with hard core Mormons or Evangelicals or Jehova's Witnesses, or most other religions. (All right, I do have a problem with Islamic Fascist Death Cultists; and some virulently either secular or religious Jews, but that's it. Really.... :wink: )
I believe in information. And History. And, ultimately, experimentation to find out what is true...

Moishe3rd:

You sound like something like a "cult hopper."

Are you now with the Chabad Lubavitch or some other Chasidic sect?

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rrmoderator
Moishe3rd:

You sound like something like a "cult hopper."

Are you now with the Chabad Lubavitch or some other Chasidic sect?

:lol:
No. :lol:
Although, some of my best friends are Chasidic...
I'm with a sect that started out with Avraham Avinu - you may know him as Abraham, and went on to formulate its more solid rules and regulations under a fellow known as Moshe Rabbeinu. I believe most non-Jews call him Moses...
The traditions of the sect I've been with theoretically date back that far.
Chasidic and Lubavitch Jews are a little more recent. However, most Chasidim acknowledge the Torah and G-d as the primogenteurs of Judaism, and therefore also trace their roots back that far.
Admittedly, the Moshiadic Chabaniks who believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach have a small theological problem in their particular aspirations, namely - it ain't Jewish. Wrong religion for a dead guy to be the Messiah. Hopefully, they too will fade away.
In a far distant galaxy, a long time ago, and far, far away; back in the good old days when air was free and I was even stupider than I am now, I suppose you could have called me a "cult hopper."
It was certainly educational. And fun.
School put a stop to the cult hopping. It seemed best to get back to basics, like G-d and country and family and work and good old fashioned stuff like that.

Very interesting insights.

Thanks

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I was involved with Sharon and Alex back in SF, Boston and NY. I liked them. Obsessive; dominating; and yes, probably dangerous, but nonetheless, I liked them.

Obsessive about what? You were with Sharon and Alex during their "theater years." Do you mean "obsessive" as in: dragging people off the streets of San Francisco to watch mediocre actors/students fulfill Alex's grandiose artistic esoteric conceits? Sharon's unfulfillable aspirations to acting and dramaturgy?

Dominating over whom? Surely you don't mean the world outside their little circle of students? When they left San Francisco they left to save their own backsides. They feared guilt by association. If they had had nothing to hide and they performed their function of sending out conscious influence into "Life" [i:13714a682b]as they had the conceit they were [/i:13714a682b]with their theater pieces, they should have stayed. And if you were to claim they wanted to protect "the Work" from public scrutiny, I would remind you that "the Work" at least as presented in all the printed matter is perfectly acceptable to the world at large. No: Sharon, Alex and the rest of you had something to hide and something to fear that is far more banal: unreported cash business, neglect of children, and physical violence encouraged and promoted by your teachers and older students. And if you have done any reminiscing about the noble effort to preserve esotericism others here and there would regard that as disingenuous and an avoidance of facing the truth of your probable complicity in the goings-on of the "theater."

Dangerous to whom? There were plenty of gullible, vulnerable, searching children of the Sixties and early Seventies like yourself who became Sharon and Alex's prey. Why do you think he turned the Kennedy's and Dr. King saga into plays? If the plays had any social importance at all, they would have attracted large audiences by word of mouth. Why were you and others forced to fill ticket quotas for every show upon pain of being physically beaten or kicked out?

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Anyway. I also appreciate the link to Dave Archer. Based on my experience, he gives an honest perspective of who or what Alex was /did.

Dave Archer? When you can trim away all of Dave Archer's faux-artistic self-indulgent and seemingly drug-addled or trippy digressions he stated that Alex Horn is a true Gurdjieffian-- provided that you agree with Dave Archer that Gurdjieff was a complete phony and charlatan; an alcoholic and liar. Do you agree with Dave Archer concerning this "honest perspective?" Have you read other contributors memories of what it was like in those days?: Sex in public in front of children? Encouraging the use of foul language in front of children? Encouraging children to have sex with other children? Have you considered that Alex Horn might have unconsciously set things up that way in order to relive his own unhappy childhood?

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He seems to point out that he was on his own hook regarding Alex and the Group. He didn't seem to blame Alex for his own problems. And, that seems to me to be important in dealing with cultish situations.
We do make our own beds. And we do lie in them.
Thank you again for at least writing about your experiences...

This entire passage of yours is filled with trigger words and phrases: "on his own hook," "didn't seem to blame the [teacher]," "we make our own beds and lie in them." It is a shame that all the years after you "left" that you still rely on them. Perhaps you, like Dave Archer, need to write about your experiences back then in order to heal or at least accept that you were taken advantage of, duped, and most certainly harmed. Dave Archer claims he has seen that many of his contemporaries have not overcome the time they spent under Alex Horn's dominion-- and I would very carefully submit that he is like his friends but can't admit it. That he is seemingly a success as an artist or auteur or whatever he is shouldn't distract you and others from this possibility.

By the way-- if you were indeed "running things" you might consider taking responsibility for your own actions and behavior.

Finally-- what people here in this forum are doing is certainly not blaming Alex Horn and Sharon Gans for their pain, as you are clearly implying (whether intentionally or not). They are coming to terms with the abuse they suffered from these two and their inner circle of which you by your own admission took part, at least sporadically. If you feel they are blaming their abusers you need to take another look at what they have written here with more sensitivity or even empathy-- i.e. from their perspective. (This is a characteristic you feel you possess, isn't it?) Others here hope you will have the courage to do so one day, most assuredly-- and for your own well-being in addition to theirs. Wouldn't that be part of what you are taught it means to become a "mensch"?

Thank you cber7. That was helpful.

I suspect that Moishe has some reason other than "I simply enjoy writing" for these posts.

In any case, another ex-member of the cult once told me that there is a certain category of people (meshugenah's?) whose lives are so pathetic that being a patsy for Gans, Klein, Horn & Co. is actually not such a bad thing, and probably no detriment to their pre-existing mental or financial condition.

I don't know whether or not Moishe falls into that category, but it wouldn't surprise me. And judging from his comments, I think he would have been excellent "teacher" material to boot.

Moishe, if you need experimentation to find out what is true, why don't you take a few daily hits from a crack pipe for a couple of weeks to see if it's really addictive? :twisted:

I was a member of Alex Horn's group from the Red Mountain Ranch to the Everyman Theatre. I paid $200 per month to be a member, and paid it in cash. Robert Klien and Fred Mindel were my friends and co students. Sharon Gans joined Alex and together started the Theatre. I found Alex's Gym at 24th and Mission, which was turned into the Everyman Theatre. I was there when theatre was built. I took over the job of overseeing of the construction of the theatre after Fred Mindel cut and ran when it became too intense for him. There was physical, mental, and emotional abuse. There were not sex acts in front of adults nor children. I never saw any child abused. I know Dave Archer and he has never said that Alex was a true 'Gurdjieffian'. He has stated that Alex is a magus, a man of power. There was something very real about Alex as well as something demonic. Alot of the power Alex had was given to him by us, his students. We believed in him. At the time I can say I totally believed in him and loved him. He gave me invaluable things. Rather I paid for in cash and force of will for invaluable things. He also caused great harm and destruction in me. If you were not there you will never understand what those times were like. You can pass judgement on all of us, as I have done. But we all were drawn by something primal in ourselves. We truly wanted to connect with something magnificant and meaningfull. And in some ways we did. We also connected to something that caused great destruction and harm in ourselves and others. I am sorry that I was part of that process. I apologize to those that I hurt, please forgive me. I believe that I was on the wrong path for those years although I gained greatly and also lost greatly. The gain was not worth the loss.

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I was a member of Alex Horn's group from the Red Mountain Ranch to the Everyman Theatre. I paid $200 per month to be a member, and paid it in cash. Robert Klien and Fred Mindel were my friends and co students. Sharon Gans joined Alex and together started the Theatre. I found Alex's Gym at 24th and Mission, which was turned into the Everyman Theatre. I was there when theatre was built. I took over the job of overseeing of the construction of the theatre after Fred Mindel cut and ran when it became too intense for him. There was physical, mental, and emotional abuse. There were not sex acts in front of adults nor children.

Have you not read the submissions of those former children who were there with you? Memory-- especially early memory-- is an unreliable source for fact, this much may be granted. At the same time, adults can be liable to selective memory when the consequences of accurate memory are too painful or frightening. Why? Because, in your case, if what these former children have reported on this message board is true, [i:4ee26d3ccc][b:4ee26d3ccc]you[/b:4ee26d3ccc] bear the responsibility for doing nothing to intervene. [/i:4ee26d3ccc]

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I never saw any child abused.

Wouldn't you consider neglect a form of abuse? Were there not children in your environment who were deprived of their parents while their parents were busy building the theater or recruiting or trying to sell tickets?

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I know Dave Archer and he has never said that Alex was a true 'Gurdjieffian'.

This is what your buddy Dave has to say about Gurdjieff: [i:4ee26d3ccc]"Gurdjieff was a spy. A real one. His Chief Feature: Intrigue. And spying requires heartless lying. And heartless liars are psychopaths. One man's psychopath is another man's Magus." [/i:4ee26d3ccc]So if you want to agree with Dave Archer's allegation that Alex was a Magus and not a true "Gurdjieffian" you may have to re-evaluate the baggage of probable psychopathy that comes with it. Do you have the guts to do that?

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He has stated that Alex is a magus, a man of power.

Really? Then what do you make of this statement of your buddy Dave Archer?: [i:4ee26d3ccc]"Understand one thing clearly. A Magus does not care about the trail of wreckage they leave behind them, period. CARING is not in their Job Description. Subjective people are THINGS: chairs, step ladders, shovels, dog houses, mailboxes. So make it about you, for yourself only. Do NOT drag your friends and family into a Magus School because you think it's cool, and might help THEM." [/i:4ee26d3ccc]In other words, a magus according to Dave Archer is just a fanciful term for what is called a psychopath. Finally, Dave Archer links the terms "Gurdjieffian" and "Magus" together, "wasthere": [i:4ee26d3ccc]"Gurdjieffian Magus: sly, astute, deep, smooth, foxy, guileful, slippery, crafty, cunning, artful, insidious, vulpine, subtle, tricky, wily, disingenuous, calculating, unfrank, gifted, subdolous, designing, scheming, dangerous, cagy, devious, shady, shifty, shitty, erotic, slick, decisive, covert, furtive, secretive, stealthy, humorous, riveting, magnetic, underhanded, ruthless, predatory, crooked, dishonest, skilled, devising, contriving, quick, silky, haunting, silver tongued, Classics trained, sensate, animalistic, hypnotic, brutal, quote-cribbing, socio-separatist, profane." [/i:4ee26d3ccc]Again, all these descriptions can easily be defining a psychopath-- even the so-called positives.

You say you know Dave Archer and that he never "said" Alex Horn was a true Gurdjieffian. Yet the quotes are from what Dave Archer has written. One has to wonder what your point is in not equating "Gurdjieffian" and "Magus." In light of this you come off sounding terribly glib about this all. Further, can you not admit at this late date that you were in the thrall of a genuine, world-class psychopath? Finally, in The Work 101 you are instructed to make a distinction between "power" and "being," where "being" is defined as "degree of Goodness." Did Alex have "power" or "being?" This is the heart of the problem for any of his victims.

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There was something very real about Alex as well as something demonic.

Yes, psychopaths have that kind of hold over people-- people give in to them in some kind of semi-hypnotic surrender-- in your case you were probably told that this is "waking form Sleep." Tragic, really. The terms "real" and "demonic" have the odor of grandiosity, by the way.

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Alot of the power Alex had was given to him by us, his students. We believed in him. At the time I can say I totally believed in him and loved him.

Yes you "believed in" him and you granted him a lot of his power over you. This is what children do with their parents. If I could hazard a guess about your past-- and at the risk of sounding as glib as you have-- it sounds as though you were the product of a lonely childhood full of neglect and you were looking for a father figure. Adults don't "believe in" other adults, if they are truly adults. What do you really mean here, or has the connection already been made for you?: Alex=Father figure. Maybe this is why you didn't/don't see neglect of children as a form of abuse-- it is too close to your own experience for you to see clearly, like the back of your head.

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He gave me invaluable things. Rather I paid for in cash and force of will for invaluable things

Share with the forum what these invaluable things were and how they have made you a better man. I am sure you gained something and the time you spent was not wasted.

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He also caused great harm and destruction in me.

Share with the forum what the harm and destruction was and how they have scarred you-- what have you actively done to heal-- or has "time" done that for you without any real effort on your part?

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If you were not there you will never understand what those times were like. You can pass judgement on all of us, as I have done. But we all were drawn by something primal in ourselves.

"Something primal," right. This refers back to the notion that most if not all of Alex Horn's and Sharon Gans's victims were the products of an unhappy childhood. This does not need any expansion, does it? Moreover, why were there never anyone of any real accomplishment under Alex Horn's sway? If you can take the measure of a person by the company he keeps, what might this say about Alex Horn given his circle of students?

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We truly wanted to connect with something magnificant and meaningfull. And in some ways we did.

What was magnificent and meaningful about your experience? And how would you conclude with certainty that all that was magnificent and meaningful was connected with Alex Horn's "being"? Putting on an abominably crappy play written by Alex Horn-- with Alex and his wife in the starring roles-- that was longer than Hamlet and Macbeth combined? Putting on another play that mythologized Kennedy and Dr. King that you were forced to aggressively pull strangers to? Or did your foreman's job exempt you from that horrible exercise? And when that young fellow (MI) broke nearly every bone in his body after falling asleep from exhaustion on a high scaffold, you were there to take responsibility for his well-being as well as the accident, right? It wasn't your fault even though you were leading that line of work, right?

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We also connected to something that caused great destruction and harm in ourselves and others. I am sorry that I was part of that process. I apologize to those that I hurt, please forgive me. I believe that I was on the wrong path for those years although I gained greatly and also lost greatly. The gain was not worth the loss.

Yes, when you confuse "power" and "being"-- as you did when you and others "believed in" Alex Horn-- things will quickly degenerate and remain so. It is said that power corrupts, and that absolute power corrupts absolutely. There is a correlate with parents and children. Children naturally bequeathe power and goodness on to their mother and father, and do not necessarily make a distinction between the two. How can they? You and so many other of Alex's students simply repeat the process in young adulthood. One of Alex Horn's personal heroes was WC Fields, remember? His favorite line: "Never give a sucker an even break." Alex Horn took complete advantage of you and you bought it.

And now you're sixty-ish and are coming here to this forum to do.... what? Surely not merely to ask forgiveness or make semantical distinctions between "Gurdjieffian" and "magus?" You have come here because you want to finally "leave." Your conscience is bothering you. You can't use the terms "Alex Horn" and "degenerate" or "psychopath" in the same sentence. You have come here to heal yourself-- genuinely. Start with excorcising your past by acknowledging what [i:4ee26d3ccc]others[/i:4ee26d3ccc] have posted here in terms of the pain and abuse they suffered-- and your own complicity. This is not about guilt and this not the Inquisition.

If you want to heal then stop playing games with your own ambivalence. Call a spade a spade once and for all: Alex Horn is most likely the most corrupt creature you have ever met, despite whatever charms he may have possessed. His spouse Sharon Gans quickly became his consort in degeneracy and delusions of grandeur as well. You and the others were living in a fantasy that something magnificent and meaningful was happening, especially if you attribute it to Alex Horn.

If anything was magnificent or meaningful to you it was because of your own character that it was so. This is something to feel good about, wasthere.

Whatever. I was there.

Cher7:

I surely could be wrong, but you don't seem to have stated your relationship to Alex Horn.

Are you an ex-student, or just someone on a messaniac mission to slay the infidels who don't follow your agenda?

In my world nothing, no one, no circumstance is black and white. I consider it immature, and lacking depth not to try to see all sides of an issue.

Yes, Alex Horn was/is probably still part demon. And he is also trying to find something more meaningful, and fullfilling than the life around us.

Yes he caused great harm, destruction in those who followed him. But he also did wonderful thing for them at times. And that is the truth.

I have no desire to defend him as he doesn't deserve to be defended, but I do want to state the truth.

For me the truth is the only thing important.

My question when I left was: could I be forsaking my personal developement for all times, was I condemning my soul to hell for infinity.

For me the answer is: no.

If you were a student, I know you have the same question. It was drilled into us. Maybe your problem is that you are not sure. Maybe that is why you hate and condemn him so much.

I would reccomend that you question what is behind your hatred and contempt.