The battered wife\abusive relationship analogy is important. When I came away from my abusive LGAT naturopathy, after he finally screamed at me that I was a sick person, I ended up thinking the verbal abuse was the worst of my problem. How could this person I trusted scream at me. So weeks later, after some research, I stumbled upon a verbal abuse website and found a therapist through it. The more I researched, especially on this forum, the more I realized that the people posting there have traded one abusive relationship for another. THey are finding strength in admitting they are codependnet for allowing someone to abuse them. It's a microcosm of the larger codependency industry.

Problem is, and this is common, the therapist had no clue about coercive persuasion, LGATs, etc. and used the Dr. Phil\codependency meme to further blame me for getting involved with this person. His Laws of Life mentioned on another thread are becoming fact for many therapists and clients.

As LGATs become more and more mainstream, with many corporations requiring "training", it is imperative that more therapists be trained in helping clients recover.

Instead of battered wife\abusive relationship, I would like to give ruined project\abusive relationship in a corporate environment. Normally people take projects assigned to them, good or bad. One tends to choose projects best fit their backgrounds and personalities. But not every outcome of the project would turn out the way what people hope, so what happened next? I would guess that depending on the level of the management level, different methods are applied. At higher level, they knew a ruin project lost money while they had to face investors and take the blame. In order to stay on the top job, it is possible that the high level officers may try all kinds of method to calm investors. So I guess brain washing the board is one possibility - the method will be applied consistently until 1) the company broke or 2) the situation gets better. But what happened to middle management, since the problems still existed. The may try to look for a scapegoat in the management circle. Finger pointing or entrapment could be possible methods. To make the propaganda work, however, the scapegoat can not realize the agenda. He/she would be forced or pressured to leave the situation with every blame on him/her, but in fact it was not so. Once the action is completed, the management can 1) take new projects or 2) still take the ruined project but knowing that they have successfully blamed someone for the sour outcome. Of course, the propaganda would not be completed without silencing all the people below the management. Since someone ought to know about the story, they would look for leaks. Methods like brain washing or education are one effective choices. The whole thing would be a cover-up operation carried out to ensure those in power stay in power but not in jail. Until the company broke or get better.....

Hi Sonnie Dee.

There are alot of questions I asked under "Landmark Questions" on the board Feel free to give your point of view, if they differ from your own experience. The last question I have not yet had a response to, and am very curious about it.

Was there a reason in particular that you see now, that you chose to spend the free time you did have, with other Landmark people, rather than your friends? Did at any time, you miss anything from your past? If so, how did you deal with that?

Coaching starts the first day you attend the Forum, and continues throughout your participation at Landmark?

You spend time with other landmark people because they think and talk and act the same way you do. Why I spent my free time with them, I am not sure, I think i probably got tired of my friends saying no, often I was taking it as a personal rejection, I had leaders telling me if my friends trusted me they would do it. or I was not enrolling enough so that is why they were saying no.

Its very hard to explain what was going on in my head during this time because to be honest I dont know.

As for coaching it begins the day you register. Everyone receives phone calls leading up into their programme (for nearly all programmes) you then receive coaching during your programme be it the landmark forum, advanced course, selp, ILP, TMLP, communication courses or what ever there is always coaching. If you assist you get coaching. If you are on staff you receive coaching. Its non stop.

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sonnie_dee
This is probably answered some where else but I have looked and couldn't find it. As someone who is working on deleting the influence this organisation had in my life I have a few questions or thoughts that maybe someone you who have either been there or have assisted other may be able to help with.

Is it ever truely possible to de-programme yourself?

How do you begin to think critically, to make decisions, to be able to decide what is right what is wrong?

I can't help but wonder how so many seemingly intelligent highly education, successful people can get so sucked in by this organisation. How did I get so sucked in?

You've probably already been told or had recommended Peter McWilliams,' "Life 102; What to do When Your Guru Sues You." Though it is about MSIA and John-Roger, you will find the same sort of manipulation, intimidation, and abuse that goes on in Landmark. These groups are mostly copy-cats of each other and surprisingly similar in their tactics. It's too bad the book is so difficult to find, and expensive when you do find a copy. MSIA "inherited" the copyright after McWilliams died and they have attempted to obliterate the existence of this book. Anyway, he addresses the questions you've written above. And also provides a sort of self-deprogramming manual.

Sad to say but Landmarkers used to brag about the success they had in New Zealand claiming it would be the first ~transformed~ country. If you think about it from a deprogramming standpoint, you might be in the vanguard to disabuse the country of this menace/scam. Good luck to you.


Ellen

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Sad to say but Landmarkers used to brag about the success they had in New Zealand claiming it would be the first ~transformed~ country

Unfortunately they still do brag about it. And in fact the only reason one of the centres is still open and running despite running at a big loss is because it is considered to be in a crtical site to have New Zealand be the first "transformed" country.

I recently had a phone call from one of the Introduction Leaders and during that call after repeatedly telling him that I was not going to get back invovled he brought this very topic up saying "Don't you want to be a part of the transformation of a country?" He was stunned when I said No.

[/quote]

Hi Sonnie_dee,

I see you are getting calls from Landmark from your post above.

If this is a problem for you there is a way to fix it.

Part of the Landmark persona is that it abides by the law of the land, though sometimes it's restraint is at the bleeding edge.

New Zealand has very similar privacy laws to Australia, UK and Europe. The law provides for individual privacy when dealing with a corporation or organisation. About this time last year I drafted a letter for my ex-girlfriend addressed to Landmark and the salient points are as follows:

I will also no longer participate in any Landmark courses or events of any kind now or in the future.

I request that my name and contact details be deleted from your database and from all other Landmark Education records. I further request that no one representing Landmark Education contact me by any means, including through any Landmark Graduates or any agents acting on behalf of Landmark Education.

I appreciate that Landmark Education values its reputation and values my rights not to be contacted under the Federal Australian Government Privacy Act.[/color:7e6f2c65d9]

This letter worked well and she was no longer bothered by them. By law, LE must delete participant details and files from their database when requested, otherwise they are in violation of the law.

Oz

Hi Oz,

New Zealand Laws do differ slightly but Landmark have been advised not to contact me in writing and verbally. They do not have to delete any of my details from their database however I have the right to check that these details are accurate and they must update them if they are inaccurate.

The problem is that even though the office has a book of "people not to call" no one ever looks at it.

The last time I got a phone call, I told the person ringing that if I received another call I would consider it harrasment and lay a formal complaint. I also pointed out that I would contact all the news papers and tell them how Landmark forum leaders treat participants and staff. I dont like stooping to that kind of level but it appears to have worked, for now at least.

The unfortunate thing is I have been quite worried about all the agreements, contracts and other legal documents I signed I dont have any copies (very foolish on my part) So at some point I am going to have to call the office of Landmark and get them to get me copies. I am dreading this because I know if I call they will attempt to coach me and I dont know if I can resist it.

Hi Sonnie_dee,

I would imagine besides the "normal" employment agreements such as payroll, tax and superannuation, there may be various types of confidentiality agreements relating to so called "Proprietary information". Not that you probably want to go down this path BUT, what LE refers to as proprietary info or tech is not. Lots of their "tech" is borrowed from various philosophies and psychotherapy methods. - anyway...

[b:0c5b289c67]Landmark Agreements:[/b:0c5b289c67]
This thread contains a typical Landmark Forum Agreement and there are others that can be downloaded from the Landmark Education website:
[board.culteducation.com]

A MESSAGE to THE BOARD:
If there are other former Landmark Staffers out there, can you advise Sonnie either through this thread or private messaging, (PM), what documents an employee may sign? - Thanks.

[b:0c5b289c67]Addressing the risk of being coached back in:[/b:0c5b289c67]
Your honesty at recognising your potential vulnerability is actually your strength. Typically, vulnerability to LE or any LGAT by a former participant or staffer is addressed in these three points:
[i:0c5b289c67]1. Externally[/i:0c5b289c67], the pursuasive techniques of the group still have the ability to trigger the former member to re-join;
[i:0c5b289c67]2. Internally[/i:0c5b289c67],there may exist an LGAT addiction;
[i:0c5b289c67]3. Internally,[/i:0c5b289c67] the loss and grief of something that seemed to be "it".

[b:0c5b289c67]The LGAT Addiction[/b:0c5b289c67]
LGAT Addiction been written about on this board form time to time. Most people, including myself, recall moments and experiences that are more than fond memories - the euthoria, the perceived "love bombing", and the [u:0c5b289c67]feeling[/u:0c5b289c67] of bonding to other participants/staff members. For some of us, those [u:0c5b289c67]feelings[/u:0c5b289c67] may never have been replicated in the outside world either before or since.

[b:0c5b289c67]Loss and grief:[/b:0c5b289c67]
A realisation of the lie of what appeared to be the "answer" to life and the feelings it brought hurts the soul and the heart. Where as at a conscious level we may be prepared to accept the loss, some of us are not prepared at an unconscious level to accept it. Over the last 15 months of investigating Landmark, and especially with working with Coz on the Robert Kiyosaki thread, I have had strong memories flood my mind and heart about my LGAT experiences 13 odd years ago. I felt loss, betrayal, and an almost [u:0c5b289c67]wishing[/u:0c5b289c67] that what the LGAT stood for was truth. Such is the strength of these LGAT processes.

Combining the loss and grief with the addiction, sets up the former participant/staffer to be triggered by the pursasive attempts of the the Group.

Sonnie - please take from this what you may find as relivent to your situation.

[b:0c5b289c67]A Potential Solution:[/b:0c5b289c67]
(okay - I'm a guy so I have to provide solutions :D )
You have expressed a need to obtain copies of all documents you have signed yet you do not want to contact Landmark. I would suggest you see a commercial solicitor/lawyer versed in the various employment acts including proprietary information. The firm can refer and use the NZ version of the Freedom of Information laws to draft a law firm letter to Landmark requesting that all documents be mailed to the law firm office who is acting on your behalf and to your instructions.

Also - you may be already doing this but if you feel comfortable, please confide in trusted family and/or a good friend and bounce off ideas. You may obtain what you want from Landmark without YOU communicating directly or they to you. Use the law.

I think your biggest asset is recognising that Landmark at the moment is stronger than you which allows you to strategise in your favour. Landmark as an organisation is cunning but it's weak point is that it is not very intelligent.

I hope some of this helps.
Take care,
Oz

Hi Oz,

Thanks for your reply, I have a friend who is a lawyer and I am sure she would be willing to help me get this information.

I am aware of the general agreements I signed upon participation but in 2000 every staff meember was made to sign (or lose their jobs) an agreement about what we could and could not do in regards to being a consultant or trainer and some other things. Alot of it is propriety but there was some other stuff that I know I was worried about at the time but I swept my concerns under the carpet.

It also addressed our talking about certain aspects of the company that they didn't want to be public knowledge.