Quote
QuestioningMinds
Haven't paid, I don't plan to pay or have anyone else pay for me either.

QM

This is actually one of the answers I've rehearsed for an upcoming weekend with a Landmark friend (next weekend :( -- I've managed to put it off for several weeks now but next weekend it is). If he offers to pay for us to go, I will say, "Not only do I not want to pay several hundred pounds to be told what I should think or feel, I would actually pay money to avoid an experience like that" (I've spent enough time talking to him about it to establish with him that I feel the message is un-usefully trying to dictate my perception, so he should understand what I mean if I say that)

These people have had thirty years to come up with more and more sophisticated ways to seduce people. And using people to exploit their friends is just so much business as usual to Landmarkers. They know how easy it is for friends to get us to do things. And how obligated we feel once they get the ball rolling. Most people don't want to hurt their friend's feelings, so they sit through the whole thing. That much more opportunity for the mind control to get its hooks in. It's all about "hooks" and "levers," as Guy and "gc" used to write about.

Your friend may not be so clever but he is being "coached" by these professional "persuaders." If you have any weaknesses, vulnerabilities, unexamined fears, blind spots, or weak moments, you may find yourself in the "yes set," a purposely driven course of inquiry designed to lead you along the path to acceptance that even you have some area of your life that could be improved by Landmark. Don't make the mistake of thinking you can reason your way out of this. They work on an emotional, psychological, subliminal, suggestive, or deeply intimate level. Watch out for the attractive women who will look longingly into your eyes for extended periods of time. This is one of the things they practice. Remember, they're selling "possibility," not probability. And even though they may be quite willing to have sex with you, it's part of the sales pitch. Lots of gurus learned how well this trick works for getting men into the fold. (Assuming you are a man.)


You might pull up some of Chris (Kico)'s old posts on afl. He was involved for a long time but got tired and sickened by the whole thing. The "scales fell from his eyes"......


Ellen

And I've survived! check out my pottery at [www.prismagems.com]

Gee... isn't it amazing! I survived the est training and the Forum both!!! ...lol...

I would like to thank Rick and everyone else on this great site. I'm new here, but my situation is similar to the original poster, Questioning Mind, though not as deep (...yet).

I have a pretty sound background in philosophy, and know where I am in life. I met my girlfriend about 15 months ago. She was strong, self-assured, and emotionally secure. She went through Landmark about a year ago. Slowly her life has changed, she thinks less clearly, and she seems to have little clue to this. She is certainly not as secure as she once was, and it's odd. It's also strange how so many topics for her lead back to Landmark. We'll talk about, say, The Matrix, and she'll say that is based on Landmark theories, for example. She'll have one "breakthrough" after another for her, yet, they don't seem to get her anywhere better. If anything she's less emotionally secure. So many things increasingly lead back to Landmark in her conversations. This doesn't dominate everything, and she isn't over an edge as I see it. But that may be because I'm a patient, and understanding man (I'm 42), but it's straining as it becomes more consuming. Now, one year, and some 5 classes later, she's about to go into one of the Advanced Classes, scraping the money together, begging family for it, or borrowing it, even though she is flat broke. I can't see this leading to any good. But have no clue how to proceed, and wonder if my patience is too strong. She thinks very highly of me, but confrontation about Landmark leads to an emotional mess. We do not live together. Any suggestions? Questions?

Of note. When she "graduated" I agreed to go to the 4 hour sales pitch. I am happy to say it did nothing for me. I saw right through it. I will NOT be attending any Landmark forums, of any sort, ever. Period.

I'm hoping that [b:c647773f84]Questioning Minds[/b:c647773f84] will post again letting us know how his situation resolves, when that time comes.

Watch out!

The "Advanced Course" is where the heavy indoctrination goes on. If she's gotten that far, in all likelihood, they've got her by the short hairs. I don't know what the stats are; there are probably a few who walk away half-way through in disgust. But they make it very, very difficult to do this with few or no ways to exit, so most people just try to get through course and, by that time, the stuff has worked on their minds. Every moment is engineered to do this. Some people are so traumatized they become paranoid. Have you read the threads about the "Advanced Course" here? There are also some old timers who used to post on alt.fan.landmark who talked about it.

Someone wrote that the average cult involvement for a person who becomes deeply involved is seven years. I don't know if this is true. Maybe someone here knows the stats.

Out of curiosity, is this site the first negative information you've seen about Landmark, or have you been researching all along? And how did she get involved with them?


Ellen

From an essay written by a Sufi who who suffered exploitation within his own tradition:

'Although we must all take full responsibility for the choices we make... an individual often does not know what they are becoming entangled in until it is too late and substantial toxicity already has spread through one’s system.

'... no matter how intelligent or self-willed or independent they may believe themselves to be –– in fact, in some ways, such arrogant, self-conceit actually is a very exploitable vulnerability by people who are abusive ... as the Satanic Al Pacino character says to the Keanu Reeves character in the movie -- [i:5d8baf0cfa]Devil’s Advocate [/i:5d8baf0cfa]-- “Vanity is definitely my favorite sin.”

[sufi-spiritual-abuse-recovery-assistance.org]

'However, meaningful forgiveness requires awareness of what has transpired. Moving on -- at least, if it is to be healthy and constructive -- requires an understanding of what has transpired. And, a person who is still caught-up in the emotional turbulence set in motion by spiritual abuse and, as a result, seeks to be an apologist for those who have been and are continuing to be abusive toward others, has neither the awareness nor understanding to able to forgive or move on in any way that is essentially healthy.'

'Such individuals will continue to associate with the abusers in various ways, under the guise that they (the ones who have been abused) are merely trying to help or assist or be compassionate and loving toward the misguided abusers. Yet, until one has regained control of one’s life, one is not in any position to be helpful, or lend assistance or be compassionate in any but a very superficial and self-serving manner.

[i:5d8baf0cfa]First, one must become healthy. However, one will never be able to detoxify as long as one continues to associate with the abusers.[/i:5d8baf0cfa]

'If one places a rock in an outhouse, the rock will absorb the aromatic ambience of the outhouse. And, human beings are a lot more vulnerable and permeable to environmental influences than a rock is.'

Thanks Ellen and Corboy. I did some research on RR and other sites, and lurked on here recently, when I became suspicious about Landmark. I thought the RR site was very informative, but some people on this board (which may include you guys?!) might have an axe to grind, and assumed all of Landmark was evil, while many people came out of it happy. Just like they say, etc. But now, a couple of months later, and with the expensive "Advanced Course" coming up (in 3 weeks), and her behavior changing slowly, oddly, and as I noted, a discussion on the topic is almost impossible, I now believe that 99% of what you guys say is quite true. Her changes, reactions, and behavior are very close to everything I read about on here.

I am not sure what I'll be doing next. I know from research here and other sites, that when people get immersed in such things (cults, or whatever one wants to call Landmark), that logic and intellectual reason will not change their mind. It's usually an emotional exhaustion that does it.

Hi Toyer,

Your girlfriend has had 15 months to absorb the full "understanding" of the Forum and I presume she has also done the Forum In Action Seminars too.

If she does the Advanced Course, she will absorb it like a sponge. If she seems distant now, she will be more distant after it.

The Advanced Course has 2 major damaging components to it:
1. There is extensive time devoted to a concept called "being with". People stand toe to toe gazing into each other's eyes to induce Trance Induction. This immediately renders the participant highly suggestible to what is immediately taught. The process by-passes the participant's reasoning and logic, to be open or "coachable";

2. "My Life Story" exercise. Participants are encouraged to write their life story and for hours, read it to a partner until what they have written actually becomes just a story to them. The purpose is to tap into a distortion of existential philosophy that sugests that all matter and events are objectified and it is the human that adds meaning to them. You will be in her life story and she may well change the meaning of the relationship to fit within Landmark constructs- If you don't conform with going into Landmark, she may dump you. This exercise assists the participant in breaking with the past to create for themselves the "possibility of being".

There is a thread on the Advanced Course.
[board.culteducation.com]

If she does the Advanced Course you will notice very swift changes in her.

There is no set formular for exiting a person from a cult as each situation is unique. What is constant though, is the LE psychie. Some things that I suggest are:
1. Check the RR site regarding exit counselling;

2. If she formally held a philosophy or religious belief prior to the Forum, help her to understand how LE philosophy may counter it. You may explore this with her by asking her how she then and now explains her relationship with "self", "others" and a "higher being" if relivent;

3. My observations from Landmark affected people are that their linguistic skills deteriorate. If you have examples of her writing prior and now and there is a marked difference, show this to her. If there are any other cognitive areas of regression, think about doing likewise.

4. If she is very defending toward LE, give her generic information about LGATs rather than actual LE material as this will be less confronting. Her ego is currently enmeshed with the Le psychie so an attack on LE is an attack on her. The above passage quotations from Corboy may make a good start.

Good luck,
Oz

Thanks Oz. I really appreciate your reply, I'll check into that link.

Ellen asked how my girlfriend got involved with Landmark. Here's what I can tell you, and more to the story:

Before my girlfriend (call her Gloria) got into Landmark, my best friend's ex-wife (call her Maggie, and him Mack) went through Landmark 3-day intro. Gloria never met Maggie. But Maggie came home "transformed". She called Mack out of the blue and apologized and forgave him, called her dad, forgave him, tried to get Mack to go, etc. you know the drill.

Gloria's dad went through Landmark around the same time. As did her yoga teacher, who said to me, "everyone should go through Landmark", to which I replied, "Don't should on other people", which took him off guard. This Yoga guy is friendly, but he has his Guru in India somewhere and is too mystical for me. I believe one or the other of them roped her into signing up. Before Gloria went, weeks had passed since Maggie went, and Maggie had reverted back to her old self, only with probably more problems, of which Mack thought was interesting. Though I thought it was completely logical, as people's souls, or subconscious minds, don't easily change overnight. At least not for the better. When they do, it's often for the worse, such as traumatic events. After Gloria attended, she felt that Maggie had not applied Landmark, and needed to keep going to the classes. I felt this was odd, and it reminded me of Dianetics.

After Glora "graduated", she talked me into going to the Landmark sales pitch. I still didn't know much about it (you know why, and why she wouldn't tell), but when I got there I saw right through it. I was polite, but didn't sign my name to anything, and knew I'd never go back, ever.

Things changed somewhat quickly after that, though not drastically. Talking to her was different. I am several years older than her, am more educated, and have been through much more in my life. In the past she was receptive to philosophical things I had to say. After the forum, her mind had shifted. I would catch her in contradictions while she would lecture, or try to explain to me her thoughts, sometimes simple ones. She'd say, "no one can be certain of anything" and I'd reply, "are you certain?" for example. But she would then obfuscate her way out of it, or it would build into an argument. It's like she didn't trust my wisdom any more at her core. Though she said she did enthusiastically.

She talked her brother into taking it, and he liked it. She talked a long time family friend into taking it, and he did. He called her to tell her he loved her during his break in the class. All these people took it, and (seem to have) moved on. She vacillated between pushing me to go, and not. After she took me to the sales pitch, she was really excited and wanted me to take it. I refused, for obvious reasons. Later, she said she was being disingenuous, and really wanted me to go for her, selfishly. I thought she was waking up. Later, she wanted me to go, but then said I was right, and didn't need Landmark. Now, she's just immersed in it.

As the weeks passed, she then took I think two classes that last several weeks, one night a week for 10-12 weeks.I believe these are the classes that Oz speaks of. It all seemed more of the same to me. I'd repeat it, but you know what I am talking about (I read about it many times on this board). She makes references to Landmark, and as none of them make much sense to me, I correct her. But she either rationalizes her way through the conversation, or we start to argue, and the subject gets dropped.

Now, she's really enthusiastic about the Advanced Forum. Like a kid begging their parents for a new car, she got other people to help her pay for it, mostly begging her mother for about $500 of it, under the rationalization that her mother paid $20,000+ for her brother's college degree. My stating that there is a difference between College and Landmark fell on deaf ears. She takes this Advanced Course in about three weeks. I think the only thing that could stop her is...well, nothing.

I have two other things to say on this. First is that a large part of my ontology comes from the Aristotlean theory that you are in control of your own destiny, and you need to live your own life, and gather your own experiences, and will be held accountable for your own decisions, by yourself in later years. I went through a tremendous amount of life's lessons in my youth, and it made me much stronger. So it goes against my nature to forcefully attempt to stop people from making bad decisions that don't kill them, or maim them physically. Plus, as stated previously, most studies I come across show that getting people out of these cults (or whatever one wants to call Landmark) by intellectual muscle is almost impossible (I'll read those links Oz, and any more you'ld like to offer). This seems to be the case here, in my simple, subtle attempts. The other thing I would like to say is that I am not madly crazy in love with this woman. We have fun together, and (before and after Landmark) she seems very in love with me, to believe in me, which is nice. But I am not going to do anything like Landmark to keep the relationship, which separates me from the original poster.

Once again, I will not ever attend the Landmark Forum, or any of their classes. Not now. Not ever. Period. If she says she'll dump me if I don't take it, then she dumps me. It would be a sad day, and I don't wnat that to happen, but I'm not joining Landmark, and am not going to any of their classes. End of story.

(Sorry for such a long post!)