I posted this in the wrong area of the site so I am reposting…

Hi …. Up front: this is a long one! I have been trying to register on this site for a week or so and I know this may have someplace in another thread but I am not sure where. I have spent hours and hours and hours reading the threads here – thank you to all the contributors. Your words are so helpful. Here goes:

I have been in a relationship with a wonderful man for the past three years - an intelligent, articulate man with a wealth of life experience, a very quick, independent and critical mind and great generosity in both spirit and actions.

Three weeks ago he did the Advanced Course. Somewhere in the dim past I recall him telling me about the Landmark Forum and how it was harmless and I should do it and we should do it together – but it must have been in passing as I completely forgot about it and the name didn’t lodge in my brain… until now.

He flew back to his hometown to do this course. He emailed me telling me he would be busy and unavailable as there were long days. But on the Saturday he called me in a ‘break’ he did not sound happy. Said he thought the leader spread bullshit at times. I emailed him and voiced my concern. At this stage I had not done any reading or research on Landmark – nothing.

On Sunday he calls me again just before they started – he sounded nervous (I have never heard him like this). He said he was going to have his say about his concerns and that he had thought it through carefully the previous night. I was very worried – I emailed him enquiring how it went.

That evening I receive a call from him – in another break – he is in great spirits. I asked him about how it went… he tells me he went in there and threw an incendiary into the room… he said he was up at the microphone for 50 minutes or so and that the leader was very nasty and abused him but that he wasn’t so nice back… he told me she eventually told him he was “uncoachable” (first time I had heard that word) and then… to my surprise (and concern) he starts saying that it was wonderful and that he realised something – he realised that the thing he was caught up on (i.e. the bullshit she was speaking in the previous presentations stuff e.g. everybody who signed some American constitution were hunted down and killed, and stuff about Martin Luther King etc) – he said it didn’t matter if she wasn’t presenting the facts but that she was trying to do ‘something’. It didn’t matter that she was bullshitting!!!! It was at this moment that I actually felt sick to my stomach. I was hearing this man (a former lawyer – who argues the‘facts’) do a complete 180 on his own reasoning. He spoke illogical, circular bullshit down the phone to me to negate his own logical reasoning. It was bizarre to me… (I have not slept well since then).

At that moment he then said he felt so empowered and it has changed his life: “it was wonderful”. He asked me (and I felt that there was someone standing listening) if he could fly me over (5 hours across the country) on Tuesday so I could attend his “Graduation” and he would have me back in my city by Wednesday. I said no (given I have 4 children and am on my own). He accepted that… but then he asked if I was free on a certain weekend coming up and he would like to fly over and we can attend the Landmark Forum together in my city. (at this stage I had red flags battering me into caution from all angles). I said I didn’t think I could do that because of the children – he then offered to come over and mind them while I did the course....so…. I told him to send some material about the course and I would consider it. Later he suggested that his daughter mind my children and we do the course together.

I felt very resentful of what had happened. A few days later he called and asked if I had thought about the course – I again asked for some reading material. He sent me a couple of brochures filled with nothing. Well it was words that covered a lot of page space but said nothing, promised nothing but attempted to make it appear like something!

I wrote back to him saying that based on the conversations he had had with me and based on the material he had sent me, I was not moved to do the course. I told him that it was easy to say his life is changed but he needed to show me – so show me in 6 months that his life has changed and I’ll consider it. He accepted that by email (I said a lot of other stuff including my concerns over his Euphoric telephone conversation).

Since then I have not slept well at all, I wake in the early hours concerned, I have a dread feeling. I have been spending hours reading your site and all my battering red flags seem justified. I feel like this is the beginning of the end of our relationship.

He spoke with me on the weekend and I asked him a lot of (I think) difficult questions (that is, it required him to use some reasoning to give an answer). In the end he politely said it was too difficult to explain and he didn’t feel confident that he was ‘qualified’ [sic] to answer and I wouldn’t understand because I haven’t experienced it. I HATED THIS!. He drew the ‘us and them’ line.

That is where I am at – I know that he is trying to ‘enrol’ me he has indicated that he has more “enrolling to do” with me before he can get me there (to a LF). I worry what this enrolling entails. He has just done the first Saturday of the SELP (straight from the AC into SELP).

I apologise for the length of this but I have had no-one to talk to and I have searched. I would like to know what to expect as he tries to enrol me. Help here please.

I have a bit of a plan:
1. I am going to ask him if I can write about this (a few titles pop to mind “The man who’s brain stopped”, “Spectating – a technological guide to watching your relationship fail”, “ Landmark – providing the black sheep with foresight: blinding the fold sheep and taking away their canes”). For me… black humour.
2. I shall ask him if I can speak with the people he invited to his graduation.
3. I am going to ask him to ‘commit’ or ‘promise’ to read a particularly long thread on this site where “nettie” details step by step, the Landmark programming.

I have such an immense sadness now, I know I am going to watch the distance grow between us.. because I know I am ‘uncoachable’.

How do I handle this?
An ultimatum?
Quiet hope that he will see the ludicrousy?
What is he going to do to try to ‘enrol’ me?

I am stressing.
If you know of anyone/place I can approach to talk about this (in Australia) I would be very grateful. Thanks

I don't think you posted in the wrong place because I just read what you wrote. I took the Landmark Forum class about a month ago. My girlfriend has taken 4 of the courses. Before I went she told me that our relationship was not a condition of my participating in forum. This might be something you want to mention to your partner and get him to commit to that statement by doing so you can use form words like "integrity" etc.

I must say that after before I took the form I was informed way beyond the typical enrolled person. I was able to see and get information out (which could have been presented in a 30 minute infomercial). Also the hard sell I totally got. When I was asked if I was going to enroll other I was able to tell them that "I have enrolled myself beyond that I am empowered in saying NO" also when asked to take further classes I used the same LF lingo "I got it, you want me to take the advanced course, I just want to remind you that what I came here to get is the overwhelming confidence in saying NO" they backed off.

Don't know if this will help you at all or others. Also if you do decide to take it so the both of you are in the same language don't give them any info that directly reaches you ie. give them an email account that is custom to them and a phone number that is temporary ie a direct voice mail so they can't call. Just so you know.

Holly

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I've been on the other side (i.e. a blissed out Landmark zealot) and remember the horrified looks that some of the friends I tried to enroll gave me. Luckily, many of them saw Landmark for the scam it was and resisted my efforts to enroll them. Thankfully they stuck by me and accepted my apologies once my sanity returned. My advice to you is to sit tight and wait to see if he comes down from this high. In my experience, the SELP was a big come down as it's less intense than the Forum and Advanced course and is run by volunteers rather than hardcore forum leaders, so you begin to see the cracks in the organisation. Only a small percentage of people who do the Forum go on to do the SELP and during my time at Landmark, lots of people dropped out of Landmark during/after the SELP so he may just come round to it himself. My advice is to be as supportive as you feel comfortable being, but don't let that stop you asking direct questions and getting him to explain exactly what he means when he starts spouting jargon.

I remember I tried reading some of the anti-Landmark sites when I was still involved, as well as soon after I ended my involvement, and found them profoundly irritating so I gave up. I simply wasn't able to take in the truth that I had been completely fooled - that took a lot longer to happen. It's worth mentioning them but he may not be ready to hear this just yet. One of the key landmark mind bending concepts is that there is no truth, everything is just opinion - it's a brilliant way of dismissing anything uncomfortable.

Newly minted Landmartians can be pretty overpowering when they try to register people though (I remember I was), but the essence of enrollment as defined by Landmark is to get you to see where you might get something out of participating in it. The formula is that you share what you got (understanding, love for your parents, giving up resentments etc etc), then get the person to see how that might make a difference in their life. Enrollment is when you get the person to visualise how much better life would be if they had xyz and then link the thought that they can 'get' xyz by participating in the Landmark Forum. Once they're 'enrolled', you can 'invite' them to register. The best way out is simply not to get into the conversation, but that's easier said than done!

Are you in the west?

I can pm you with a possible contact for help, if you so request.

I am sorry to hear this is happening to you. Don't give up on your guy just yet. If he just did the AC he is still on the emotional high. This is going to sound crazy but bear with me. Part of how LE works is to get people really pumped up about how much they love their friends and family. They then use this to their advantage. "Well if you feel so great, don't you want your girlfriend and kids to feel great too?" It's especially bad when he's in the thick of it. He thinks your life together will be so wonderful if you, and the kids do the Forum. What he is unable to see right now, is that Landmark is the cause the problems, not the solution.

My advice would be to just say no when he ask you to do it. Don't give him a reason why you don't want to and don't get mad, just say no, and try to change the subject. If you get upset or angry while talking with him about it, he'll use that. He will think that is why he wants you to do the forum, because you are upset/angry/dissatisfied.....and, in his mind, if you do the forum you won't be that way anymore. The thing that he doesn't understand is it's LEC that's causing the problem that only they have the supposed solutions for.

hope this helps

afraid you know the outcome-"beginning of the end." Sooner probably better than later. Once they get started on this nonsense, the "insulting" attempts to enroll never seem to stop. Sounds like you have much too much responsibility with 4 kids to put up with it. I am sure you are "sick" over this-seen it before as have many others here. Sorry for that-but the upside you seem very wise and have good judgment.

I feel for you in this troubled time. It may be a hard thing to convince your man about the bad side of landmark. But give it a try. Some thing that you present to him may hit home. You never know what little thing may put a wrench into the new thought system that has been "implanted" in him.

nettie

FWIW, your 1st good opportunity to get through to him on anything (pretty much) will come soon when he comes down from his hypo-manic high (although HE won't call it that). Try and hang in there for a few more weeks (many come down in 2 to 4) and look for signs like crashing followed by more normal sleep patterns and then perhaps a return to that old familiar look in his eye.

At that point, you'll still have to be careful about what you say to him about Landmark. Try and assess how much of this is even sticking with him after his 'head chemistry' chills out and gauge from there how far to push the envelope with this. You may have to be sly and coy, more like leading him to water by planting seeds of doubt which, hopefully will soon rev up his left hemisphere. Right now that hemisphere is kinda somewhere between 'on hold' and 'in shock.' But if you play your cards right, you might help him start to collect the dots on his own after he crashes. (It also might be a soft landing, too.)

I feel for you. My 20 year old daughter just took, w/o my prior knowledge, a Landmark/Lifespring copycat training called Impact trainings, and I'm having to go through the same thing you're going through, but in a Father/Daughter context. It ain't fun; and I'm hoping that in my Daughter's case, that this hypo-mania of hers really does go away. It doesn't always...

Thank you all for your replies.
There is a bit of delay here because of the time difference and I am not sure of the etiquette in replying back, so I shall put all my replies and questions in the one post, so it is moderated once… here goes:

Holly:

It is interesting to hear how you approached doing the Forum. Would it be correct to say that in a way you have been able to manipulate Landmark using their own (ab)uses of the language? Would Landmark say you “got it” if how you approached them was actually realised? (Probably not as it would require some critical thought on their part).

Regarding: “Also if you do decide to take it so the both of you are in the same language”

This is not even a consideration given that we were both in the same language prior to him doing the course.
It is heartening to now you just did the course and are able to look at it with some clarity.

Spoony:

I have already had that part as you say in your last paragraph…

“The formula is that you share what you got (understanding, love for your parents, giving up resentments etc etc), then get the person to see how that might make a difference in their life”
And he tried to ask me how I could see that helping my life. I didn’t really engage in that dialogue… but am very worried and aware about the “easier said than done” aspect

Billie:

Thanks. Yes he has said what a fantastic life we have together when we get past our hurdles happening at the moment ( I am thinking he thinks landmark can solve these)…. and it is going to be hard for me not to get upset (I already am)… and I can see that if I do show him my emotion then he WILL (as you say) tell me that is why I need to do this course.

itsashame:

Yes it is an absolute shame! And bordering criminal on the part of Landmark. It is so painful to be able to almost “taste” the outcome but more so that I am going to watch it unfold before me. I have a bit of an internal battle with this one as, while I see the path it’s taking I also have the notion “there’s always hope” inherent in my nature.

nettie:

Again, a battle inside me: sit back and watch it, or, be direct and try to tackle the issue. I err towards the latter. However I am considering everyone’s advice in this forum (and the 2 cents are adding up!)

I am quite direct and therefore am biting my tongue not to spout stuff.

How to “go gently” without giving him the need to consult and ‘share’ with his ‘support group’ so they can coach him in how to deal with/approach/enrol me or persuade him that I am best forfeited because I don’t get it and never will!

To all the readers in this forum

This brings me to further questions which may seem like a weird curiosity… but I want to know how this ‘support’ group becomes so bonded.

What are the exercises in those bland presentation rooms in the Advanced Course and the SELP program?

I understand that people reveal very emotional intimate/dark/troubling experiences that they have had (and may never have spoken about before) and therefore an essence of group trust is developed.
I understand the ‘connecting’ new language thing.

I read in another thread that in one course they do an exercise and pair-off, stand toe-to-toe and stare into each others eyes.

But what else that encourages the bond?
I mean I have all sorts of strange thoughts in my head like: is certain behaviour encouraged (e.g. a special way to say hello, or a secret handshake…), do they all tell each other “I love you”, do they stand on chairs and wave their arms to a theme song… I don’t know. Is it a groupie huggie sort of thing… to make them all feel like they belong and are connected and understand each other?
I am trying to understand what my partner has done in these courses that makes him feel so connected with his group that he is comfortable to discuss me (using my first name) and how to get me there.

I was in your mans shoes just over a year ago. I was on the emotional high of just completing the Advanced Course myself. Things were going good I thought, that is until the fog started to lift and the dark underbelly of what had been done to me started to surface. I give much credit to my then girl friend for bringing me to my senses, all be it roughly and not a pretty sight.

She kept prodding me to think and kept pointing out how my reasoning didn't make sense. She kept telling me that I didn't need them (Landmark) to be successful etc. Soon afterwards, about the time I got into the SELP, things started going down hill in my life and I started questioning things. I started putting two and two together and realized that my slide started after joining Landmark and taking the Forum and the pace of the slide really picked up after I took the Advanced Course.

In the end I lost everything! My relationship with the woman I loved and I wanted to marry, my financial stability, my sanity, my health, and eventually my job! It was agonizing slide that didn't stop until this February when I lost my job, even though I had left Landmark in June of 2007! In fact I'm still dealing with it from time to time. The woman that was my girl friend is still in my life but not the extent that she was before.

All I can say is that since he did go off on them in the Advanced Course there is hope. But also bear in mind that you are dealing with a very strong man with a previously well defined identity. When it hits him that he has been "taken for a fool" by a cult, he is probably going to be devistated, and probably very hard to handle. If he ends up hitting rock bottom like I have it is not going to be a pretty sight. Be prepared for the worst, and that is the honest truth and it could very possibly set him back for months even years, as it has me.

When he finally comes to his senses all I can say is be there for him. Don't baby him, just be supportive. Don't be judgemental towards him after he leaves Landmark. He will probably make a lot of stupid decisions. It's okay to point out what he is doing wrong, just don't come down on him harshly.

You can start out making him think by pointing out all the successful people in his life that are not in Landmark as well as the successful people he doesn't know personally. Be sure to point out people he can relate to. Success comes in many forms, not necesarily the monetary kind.

Another think to be aware of is that Landmark is going to desire for him to come into their fold and become a leader of somesort and start spreading their dogma. They will want him because he is charismatic, successful, and can get the job done. Plus his position as a Lawyer gives him an air of authority that is useful for them. Landmark wants and needs people like him to keep their organization afloat, and he will recieve a lot of subtle pressure from them to join their ranks.

I'm telling you this because this is exactly what happened to me. But in the end I was too much for them to handle and now I'm one of their biggest detractors, on this forum at least. I'm not afraid to spill my guts about what I know personally about Landmark. I'm no where near Nettie's level of effectiveness but my disdain for the organization is definately something to be reconned with. I'm sure they would love a piece of me because of what I have written on this forum.