Kids and Landmark?
Posted by:
mom1313
()
Date: May 11, 2008 12:23AM
My kids are attending a Landmark forum this weekend. A friend offered to Mentor our kids for this 'rethinking life' kind of weekend day camp.
Now, after finding this site (my son called me to say one of the other kids gave him the website) - and not really finding any information regarding the child/teen program - I am wondering if I have reason to be concerned. Since there doesn't seem to be anything negative written about any ill after affects on any kids who have attended the Landmark child/teen Forums -- I don't know if I should assume its (the child Forum weekend) is ok? We looked online before giving them permission to attend - but didn't find anything regarding ANY negative feedback relating to the program that is designed for the kids.
Any information regarding = specifically the child/teen program -- will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Now, after finding this site (my son called me to say one of the other kids gave him the website) - and not really finding any information regarding the child/teen program - I am wondering if I have reason to be concerned. Since there doesn't seem to be anything negative written about any ill after affects on any kids who have attended the Landmark child/teen Forums -- I don't know if I should assume its (the child Forum weekend) is ok? We looked online before giving them permission to attend - but didn't find anything regarding ANY negative feedback relating to the program that is designed for the kids.
Any information regarding = specifically the child/teen program -- will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Re: Kids and Landmark?
Posted by:
nettie
()
Date: May 11, 2008 12:28PM
well - maybe you want to watch my videos on youtube before you send your kids to kid-forum.
[youtube.com]
nettie aka Lars aka Nisseberka
en entity who has seen landmarks inner core - it is rotten (unfortunately)
[youtube.com]
nettie aka Lars aka Nisseberka
en entity who has seen landmarks inner core - it is rotten (unfortunately)
Re: Kids and Landmark?
Posted by:
ON2 LF
()
Date: May 11, 2008 02:22PM
Landmark is Landmark, at whatever age level it targets for 'transformation'. A child/teen forum may not produce reports of having caused any damage to the children or teens in attendance, but that is beside the point. The point is, Landmark is a cult that cleverly masquerades as a 'self-help/life-coaching' for profit business, operated by unlicensed, unethical program presenters, if you will, who have proven their recklessness and irresponsibility again and again. They are a bunch of wanna-be-shrinks messing around with people's minds, thinking they're better at what they do than legitimately trained psychologists or counselors. They've even converted people with Psychological backgrounds, using those people's praise reports to portray themselves as respectable and legitimate operation, they're a joke, but the joke unfortunatley, is usually on those who participate in their programs, and become zealots for the hollow BS Landmark sells as 'educational' or 'technologies'.
Werner Erhard supposedly had an epiphany about how empty and meaningless life really is, while driving across some bridge in the 70's. Well, the creep has been selling bridges ever since, to what seems an endless stream of unsuspecting 'bridge buyers'. LE is a renamed, and partially repackaged est.
A child/teen forum may or may not be be a watered down version of what adults are subjected to, but that is irrelevant in light of Landmark's unspoken intentions, to create mindless followers to use as work slaves later, and committed Landroids to run the company for free, at what is often significant personal/psychological/financial/relational/spiritual/emotional cost to the slaves/volunteers.
Landmark is not interested in a child's well being, Landmark wants the assurance of more future worker drones, to 'enroll' more drones, and they will believe they are slaving away for the bettering and transformation of mankind. When in fact, all they are doing is keeping the business/cult in the high profit margins for its leader(s), and other 'higher ups', who know what the company is really about. They say that Werner sold his intellectual property (which is crudely embellished Scientology/Eastern philosophy/Zen Buddhism/who-knows-what-else, teachings), in 1991 to what is now Landmark, but the man/'source' still influences the entire organization. This is quite evident in the worship and adoration his followers in Landmark shower on him today, a little too much to the extreme..though most have never met him, and likely never will.
IMO, A child/teen Landmark forum is like a watered down shot of arsenic versus a shot straight up, which is what they will get should they return for more Landmark courses later in their adult life. If the programming is effective enough in the teen forum, chances are good that they will feel a need for more Landmark enlightenment later in life, when problems and issues begin to surface as they will in anyone's life. The difference for the returnees is that they unconsciously or consciously believe Landmark has the one and only key to solving their problems, and all the problems of the world at that. If a child returns home defending the forum by stating that 'you don't know what you're talking about until you've tried it yourself', chances are that child got too much of the watered down version.
Its all roses and sunshine until life gets real, and real life problems begin to surface. The forum, child or adult, has never prepared anyone for REAL life or equipped anyone with real life solutions, and likely never will, it can't, because that is not what Landmark is about. Those who rave about their forum (usually adults), and declare how 'transformed' their life is, have no idea the arrogant, inarticulate, and shrewd calculating people they've been turned into. They believe they have found the key to every possible problem experienced by mankind, with an urgency to get as many people enrolled as possible..after all, Landmark MUST have the entire planet 'transformed' by 2020!
I've witnessed what Landmark can do to a person's intelligence and quality of life, and it is a reality I would not care to witness again, or wish for anyone to have to experience. If a child returns from their forum with a new zest for life, and ready to take on the whole world, literally, that effect will likely prove itself a placebo effect over time. I witnessed a Lekkie 'enroll' their teen family members for a teen forum, and that was how they came out of it, 'on fire' as they say in LE jargon, but the effect wore off..even with the adult Lekkie reinforcing the programming for them by only speaking in Lekkie jargon to them, and by reminding them constantly, of all the coveted 'golden' nuggets of wisdom they were given in their forum, which basically consisted of standard LE cliches, and repetitions of unrealistic declaration of their invincible strength, will, and of course, superior knowledge. It was sickening to watch and listen to. The kids returned to their normal selves gradually, with the same pre-forum issues in tact. LE can't erase a family history and all of its unique issues or events, but it can sure as hell remove and isolate its converts from their families, and friends.
The tidbits of information they take from the forum, that are good, may also be found in most libraries, or in quality chats with their elders, parents, teachers, or school counselors. IMO, parents save your money, and if your child/teen has issues they need to deal with, find a registered, licensed, professionally accredited/trained, and ethically bound therapist.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2008 02:50PM by ON2 LF.
Werner Erhard supposedly had an epiphany about how empty and meaningless life really is, while driving across some bridge in the 70's. Well, the creep has been selling bridges ever since, to what seems an endless stream of unsuspecting 'bridge buyers'. LE is a renamed, and partially repackaged est.
A child/teen forum may or may not be be a watered down version of what adults are subjected to, but that is irrelevant in light of Landmark's unspoken intentions, to create mindless followers to use as work slaves later, and committed Landroids to run the company for free, at what is often significant personal/psychological/financial/relational/spiritual/emotional cost to the slaves/volunteers.
Landmark is not interested in a child's well being, Landmark wants the assurance of more future worker drones, to 'enroll' more drones, and they will believe they are slaving away for the bettering and transformation of mankind. When in fact, all they are doing is keeping the business/cult in the high profit margins for its leader(s), and other 'higher ups', who know what the company is really about. They say that Werner sold his intellectual property (which is crudely embellished Scientology/Eastern philosophy/Zen Buddhism/who-knows-what-else, teachings), in 1991 to what is now Landmark, but the man/'source' still influences the entire organization. This is quite evident in the worship and adoration his followers in Landmark shower on him today, a little too much to the extreme..though most have never met him, and likely never will.
IMO, A child/teen Landmark forum is like a watered down shot of arsenic versus a shot straight up, which is what they will get should they return for more Landmark courses later in their adult life. If the programming is effective enough in the teen forum, chances are good that they will feel a need for more Landmark enlightenment later in life, when problems and issues begin to surface as they will in anyone's life. The difference for the returnees is that they unconsciously or consciously believe Landmark has the one and only key to solving their problems, and all the problems of the world at that. If a child returns home defending the forum by stating that 'you don't know what you're talking about until you've tried it yourself', chances are that child got too much of the watered down version.
Its all roses and sunshine until life gets real, and real life problems begin to surface. The forum, child or adult, has never prepared anyone for REAL life or equipped anyone with real life solutions, and likely never will, it can't, because that is not what Landmark is about. Those who rave about their forum (usually adults), and declare how 'transformed' their life is, have no idea the arrogant, inarticulate, and shrewd calculating people they've been turned into. They believe they have found the key to every possible problem experienced by mankind, with an urgency to get as many people enrolled as possible..after all, Landmark MUST have the entire planet 'transformed' by 2020!
I've witnessed what Landmark can do to a person's intelligence and quality of life, and it is a reality I would not care to witness again, or wish for anyone to have to experience. If a child returns from their forum with a new zest for life, and ready to take on the whole world, literally, that effect will likely prove itself a placebo effect over time. I witnessed a Lekkie 'enroll' their teen family members for a teen forum, and that was how they came out of it, 'on fire' as they say in LE jargon, but the effect wore off..even with the adult Lekkie reinforcing the programming for them by only speaking in Lekkie jargon to them, and by reminding them constantly, of all the coveted 'golden' nuggets of wisdom they were given in their forum, which basically consisted of standard LE cliches, and repetitions of unrealistic declaration of their invincible strength, will, and of course, superior knowledge. It was sickening to watch and listen to. The kids returned to their normal selves gradually, with the same pre-forum issues in tact. LE can't erase a family history and all of its unique issues or events, but it can sure as hell remove and isolate its converts from their families, and friends.
The tidbits of information they take from the forum, that are good, may also be found in most libraries, or in quality chats with their elders, parents, teachers, or school counselors. IMO, parents save your money, and if your child/teen has issues they need to deal with, find a registered, licensed, professionally accredited/trained, and ethically bound therapist.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2008 02:50PM by ON2 LF.
Re: Kids and Landmark?
Posted by:
mom1313
()
Date: May 11, 2008 08:49PM
Ok - so I feel the need to write what happened after I made my post.
I think I need to give a little history first. We went to a Landmark Tues. night forum with the father of our son's girlfriend. I have to admit that what we heard made a great deal of sense - and our 'mentor' is a respected friend (potential father-in-law to our oldest son). The cost for us was an issue - but we decided to enroll our two younger sons because we thought it could give them some good life tools. I have attended many Zig Ziglar/Robbins etc type training sessions - and since Landmark was offering a 'teen' program I thought 'why not'. I did come home and look around online for Landmark - but found so much 'good' out there that I didn't question it too much. For every one 'bad' site there were seemingly dozens of 'good' sites about the Forum. I do know that both my husband and I had at least one moment where, I think, our common sense told us something wasn't quite right.
So - jumping forward to today. After I posted we received a phone call from the older of our two boys who was attending who said "I want to leave".
Now, there had been issues yesterday (how I got to this site) because one teen boy who was there had told our son that he was in essence planted there to get information to prove landmark is a cult. When he called me and told me this - I came here and checked it out - and immediately called his 'mentor' (our friend). I felt better after that call (we spoke for probably 30-60 minutes0 - and we left it at that. However, a few minutes later I received a call (I was at an appointment by this time) and it went through to my voicemail. About 15 mins after that I was able to return the call to Marlene - 'the Forum Supervisor'. She told me that they had 'already addressed the problem' -- and when I asked her what problem? I was told that they had been made aware of this 'cult' issue and that the Forum 'Leader' was already addressing it - publicly and openly and then began to tell me HOW they had done it. I was LIVID. First, because we were talking about KIDS -- and second because they had not taken the time to talk to me to get the actual details of what had actually transpired in the call to my kids. Lots of phone calls after that - but in the end - our concern was for our kids - and we didn't want them to be singled out any further in a negative way. We decided at that point that we would wait and see how the kids were when we picked them up. When we picked them up last night and heard what actually happened - we were relieved in a sense and also blown away at how inaccurately things had been presented to them. For example - the kids were SURE that "I" was the one who had called in to Landmark and created the ruckus -- because they were told that FOUR parents had called and "ONE MOM IS SO UPSET SHE IS ON HER WAY FROM <insert my state name here> TO PICK UP HER KIDS". I know that I did not make the call and I know that I never said I was on my way to pick up the kids. Both my husband and I questioned that - and went to bed not sure if we were going to send the kids back the next day. We decided - since the kids overall seemed ok - to kind of leave it to whether they wanted to return. They both did want to return. Our 'mentors' kids are also attending (to include my oldest sons gf - although my oldest son has not YET decided to participate himself) -- and I have a great deal of respect for this girl and she assured me that although she didn't feel there was much to learn from the first day - that she was intrigued and was going to go back. Earlier she said she had started to think that she wasn't going to return - but that she felt there might be something more to gain since Friday seemed to be just basic stuff that she understood (as did my kids) - but that some of the kids my have needed those basics. My husband and I felt it very strange at how they reacted to being told about someone being there to expose them as a cult. It seemed haphazard and paranoid almost.
So, back to the phone call. Our son said that "he had talked with the Forum leader" and that the answer to his question - albeit what our son WANTED to hear - knew that at his core - it would go against us as parents. However, he also felt he had gotten 'all there is to get' out of the Forum. Now - we were REALLY confused. We called Landmark to tell them that our son wanted to come home and that we would be there to get him as soon as we could make the drive back (1.5 to 2 hours) depending on traffic. Before we hit the beltway - our son called back and said he had talked with our friend (the mentor) and had decided to stay. We engaged him in conversation - because his issue he had - where the forum leader gave him the answer he wanted (let me explain that as I can - not real comfortable throwing personal info out there) - but my son's biological father is a psychotic. My son has not had contact with him in a long time (and when he was younger - the courts took away any rights to him because of the things this man had done to him).....but as any child -- he wishes with all his heart this wasn't the case. The Forum leader had told him that "It isn't up to your father to contact you - YOU need to call him --- YOU need to find a way to visit him....) -- I was overly concerned that any adult would tell a child something like this - again - without having all the information. I believe - under more normal circumstances -- there is some truth to reaching out and creating relationships ---- but in this case - it could be lethal - emotionally - and maybe even physically! I gave the benefit of the doubt that this Leader (alan) could not have known - why should he? However, after having that little bit of time to think about it -- I questioned my son on why the sudden change to stay. We continued driving. We ended up on a three way call between us, our son and the mentor friend. I found myself, without realizing it, about 3/4 of the way through the conversation changing my mind! I did like what the Mentor was saying - and went back to this being more about my son 'wanting' this situation with his bio father that he was walking away from the Forum because he had realized to complete the Forum - he would be taught how to 'complete' this relationship - without needing to even contact this person. Our son's ultimate decision was to leave. By the time we got there however - I found myself furious that he was leaving?
The next hour was not so good - a 2 hour conversation with all of us and the mentor. Our biggest concern was that our son had only gotten bits of this 'training' and that he was 'armed and dangerous' because he didn't have it all ---- therefore was abusing what he knew. To go into all the details would take too long -but I mention this because my husband and I went back and forth -- from He needs to be told he doesn't have it all down - and 'shut down' in a sense -- to us pushing him on why he should return and finish the weekend. At one point - I felt like "I" had been brainwashed - and was watching my husband go back and forth from hanging up on the Mentor -- to putting the phone back on speaker for the mentor to talk to our son again - and then not 2 minutes into what he was telling our son -- having that 'wait a minute - you're not saying what you just said you were going to tell him to me' ------and taking the phone again. Back and forth. Now, my husband and I are smart, educated people. This mentor is a FRIEND. A RESPECTED friend. This was CRAZY! There was a lot more going on - but in the end we were convinced that our son NOT completing the Forum was where the problem ended. Our son didn't want to go back. We were ok with that. The end. Part of us is disappointed that he didn't finish because I believe there is a possibility that he could have gotten some tools to help with issues. I didn't like that he had only gotten part of it - and was already using it incorrectly. For example - he told us that when we were talking to him that we were only expressing our opinions - and that just because we feel something is inappropriate or wrong doesn't mean it is because it is only wrong if he BELIEVES it is wrong. Everything is only perception. Yep, he got the first part of the course rather well -- but without the rest of it - was not implementing it correctly.
We picked up our younger son who seems ok. He talked openly about what they did during the day and his only complaint was that the Forum Leader didn't really allow him to participate much (he had been an active participant the day before). Both boys let us read the letters they had written to "Mr Annonymous" -- so on that note - we haven't felt that the kids were being led down a path that didn't include parental involvement. My son's gf however -- is when I think my common sense clicked in again. She just didn't seem herself when we saw her. She is usually happy and bubbly and last night - she seemed distant and far away. Really weird. Our son did come home last night with 'sign up papers' - but said they were told simply if your folks are interested in taking another class - or if you are -- this is what you need. He said it wasn't a big deal and that there wasn't any pressure put on him regarding it.
Oldest son was done with LF -- younger son wanted to complete today. Yes, there have been some things happen but we are still so confused about it all - and our younger son seems to be truly enjoying himself -- no signs of him struggling with anything - nor is he babbling blather and ecstatic. Just his normal self.
Now, what led me here this morning. When I awoke - I found a letter on our counter written by my older son stating that he had realized he'd made a horrible mistake and that he would be very appreciative if we would let him return to the forum today. ???? Where did that come from? My husband - who had been up much earlier in order to take our younger son to day 3 - had written him back explaining that to return today - would not be the right thing as he missed most all of day 2 - and wouldn't be prepared for what they would be doing today- in essence the same thing we were saying yesterday -- that only parts of any kind of training like this is dangerous - like being told how to turn the ignition in the car - but now knowing how to drive it - and someone putting you out on the freeway and telling you to drive.
I just reread what I've written and feel like it may not be coming across accurately - but there are so many details. When I read what I wrote I was thinking - if I was reading this from someone else - I would be going WHY did you take your younger son back? But you had to be here and you'd have to have a more complete story to probably really understand. My only issue right now is that I feel so 50-50. Part of me does ask WHY I sent my son back. The other side of me sees the BASICS of the landmark forum as being a good way to expand the thought process -- and since the kids things does seem to be quite different then the adult I don't see the harm that's talked about from the things they do in the adult forum. I just feel like somehow my common sense and ability to make a decision on this is strange.
So, in conclusion - I'm not sure why I came back here to share all of this. I do know that part of my thought process makes me feel like I've been brainwashed and I've never taken the Forum!???
I think I need to give a little history first. We went to a Landmark Tues. night forum with the father of our son's girlfriend. I have to admit that what we heard made a great deal of sense - and our 'mentor' is a respected friend (potential father-in-law to our oldest son). The cost for us was an issue - but we decided to enroll our two younger sons because we thought it could give them some good life tools. I have attended many Zig Ziglar/Robbins etc type training sessions - and since Landmark was offering a 'teen' program I thought 'why not'. I did come home and look around online for Landmark - but found so much 'good' out there that I didn't question it too much. For every one 'bad' site there were seemingly dozens of 'good' sites about the Forum. I do know that both my husband and I had at least one moment where, I think, our common sense told us something wasn't quite right.
So - jumping forward to today. After I posted we received a phone call from the older of our two boys who was attending who said "I want to leave".
Now, there had been issues yesterday (how I got to this site) because one teen boy who was there had told our son that he was in essence planted there to get information to prove landmark is a cult. When he called me and told me this - I came here and checked it out - and immediately called his 'mentor' (our friend). I felt better after that call (we spoke for probably 30-60 minutes0 - and we left it at that. However, a few minutes later I received a call (I was at an appointment by this time) and it went through to my voicemail. About 15 mins after that I was able to return the call to Marlene - 'the Forum Supervisor'. She told me that they had 'already addressed the problem' -- and when I asked her what problem? I was told that they had been made aware of this 'cult' issue and that the Forum 'Leader' was already addressing it - publicly and openly and then began to tell me HOW they had done it. I was LIVID. First, because we were talking about KIDS -- and second because they had not taken the time to talk to me to get the actual details of what had actually transpired in the call to my kids. Lots of phone calls after that - but in the end - our concern was for our kids - and we didn't want them to be singled out any further in a negative way. We decided at that point that we would wait and see how the kids were when we picked them up. When we picked them up last night and heard what actually happened - we were relieved in a sense and also blown away at how inaccurately things had been presented to them. For example - the kids were SURE that "I" was the one who had called in to Landmark and created the ruckus -- because they were told that FOUR parents had called and "ONE MOM IS SO UPSET SHE IS ON HER WAY FROM <insert my state name here> TO PICK UP HER KIDS". I know that I did not make the call and I know that I never said I was on my way to pick up the kids. Both my husband and I questioned that - and went to bed not sure if we were going to send the kids back the next day. We decided - since the kids overall seemed ok - to kind of leave it to whether they wanted to return. They both did want to return. Our 'mentors' kids are also attending (to include my oldest sons gf - although my oldest son has not YET decided to participate himself) -- and I have a great deal of respect for this girl and she assured me that although she didn't feel there was much to learn from the first day - that she was intrigued and was going to go back. Earlier she said she had started to think that she wasn't going to return - but that she felt there might be something more to gain since Friday seemed to be just basic stuff that she understood (as did my kids) - but that some of the kids my have needed those basics. My husband and I felt it very strange at how they reacted to being told about someone being there to expose them as a cult. It seemed haphazard and paranoid almost.
So, back to the phone call. Our son said that "he had talked with the Forum leader" and that the answer to his question - albeit what our son WANTED to hear - knew that at his core - it would go against us as parents. However, he also felt he had gotten 'all there is to get' out of the Forum. Now - we were REALLY confused. We called Landmark to tell them that our son wanted to come home and that we would be there to get him as soon as we could make the drive back (1.5 to 2 hours) depending on traffic. Before we hit the beltway - our son called back and said he had talked with our friend (the mentor) and had decided to stay. We engaged him in conversation - because his issue he had - where the forum leader gave him the answer he wanted (let me explain that as I can - not real comfortable throwing personal info out there) - but my son's biological father is a psychotic. My son has not had contact with him in a long time (and when he was younger - the courts took away any rights to him because of the things this man had done to him).....but as any child -- he wishes with all his heart this wasn't the case. The Forum leader had told him that "It isn't up to your father to contact you - YOU need to call him --- YOU need to find a way to visit him....) -- I was overly concerned that any adult would tell a child something like this - again - without having all the information. I believe - under more normal circumstances -- there is some truth to reaching out and creating relationships ---- but in this case - it could be lethal - emotionally - and maybe even physically! I gave the benefit of the doubt that this Leader (alan) could not have known - why should he? However, after having that little bit of time to think about it -- I questioned my son on why the sudden change to stay. We continued driving. We ended up on a three way call between us, our son and the mentor friend. I found myself, without realizing it, about 3/4 of the way through the conversation changing my mind! I did like what the Mentor was saying - and went back to this being more about my son 'wanting' this situation with his bio father that he was walking away from the Forum because he had realized to complete the Forum - he would be taught how to 'complete' this relationship - without needing to even contact this person. Our son's ultimate decision was to leave. By the time we got there however - I found myself furious that he was leaving?
The next hour was not so good - a 2 hour conversation with all of us and the mentor. Our biggest concern was that our son had only gotten bits of this 'training' and that he was 'armed and dangerous' because he didn't have it all ---- therefore was abusing what he knew. To go into all the details would take too long -but I mention this because my husband and I went back and forth -- from He needs to be told he doesn't have it all down - and 'shut down' in a sense -- to us pushing him on why he should return and finish the weekend. At one point - I felt like "I" had been brainwashed - and was watching my husband go back and forth from hanging up on the Mentor -- to putting the phone back on speaker for the mentor to talk to our son again - and then not 2 minutes into what he was telling our son -- having that 'wait a minute - you're not saying what you just said you were going to tell him to me' ------and taking the phone again. Back and forth. Now, my husband and I are smart, educated people. This mentor is a FRIEND. A RESPECTED friend. This was CRAZY! There was a lot more going on - but in the end we were convinced that our son NOT completing the Forum was where the problem ended. Our son didn't want to go back. We were ok with that. The end. Part of us is disappointed that he didn't finish because I believe there is a possibility that he could have gotten some tools to help with issues. I didn't like that he had only gotten part of it - and was already using it incorrectly. For example - he told us that when we were talking to him that we were only expressing our opinions - and that just because we feel something is inappropriate or wrong doesn't mean it is because it is only wrong if he BELIEVES it is wrong. Everything is only perception. Yep, he got the first part of the course rather well -- but without the rest of it - was not implementing it correctly.
We picked up our younger son who seems ok. He talked openly about what they did during the day and his only complaint was that the Forum Leader didn't really allow him to participate much (he had been an active participant the day before). Both boys let us read the letters they had written to "Mr Annonymous" -- so on that note - we haven't felt that the kids were being led down a path that didn't include parental involvement. My son's gf however -- is when I think my common sense clicked in again. She just didn't seem herself when we saw her. She is usually happy and bubbly and last night - she seemed distant and far away. Really weird. Our son did come home last night with 'sign up papers' - but said they were told simply if your folks are interested in taking another class - or if you are -- this is what you need. He said it wasn't a big deal and that there wasn't any pressure put on him regarding it.
Oldest son was done with LF -- younger son wanted to complete today. Yes, there have been some things happen but we are still so confused about it all - and our younger son seems to be truly enjoying himself -- no signs of him struggling with anything - nor is he babbling blather and ecstatic. Just his normal self.
Now, what led me here this morning. When I awoke - I found a letter on our counter written by my older son stating that he had realized he'd made a horrible mistake and that he would be very appreciative if we would let him return to the forum today. ???? Where did that come from? My husband - who had been up much earlier in order to take our younger son to day 3 - had written him back explaining that to return today - would not be the right thing as he missed most all of day 2 - and wouldn't be prepared for what they would be doing today- in essence the same thing we were saying yesterday -- that only parts of any kind of training like this is dangerous - like being told how to turn the ignition in the car - but now knowing how to drive it - and someone putting you out on the freeway and telling you to drive.
I just reread what I've written and feel like it may not be coming across accurately - but there are so many details. When I read what I wrote I was thinking - if I was reading this from someone else - I would be going WHY did you take your younger son back? But you had to be here and you'd have to have a more complete story to probably really understand. My only issue right now is that I feel so 50-50. Part of me does ask WHY I sent my son back. The other side of me sees the BASICS of the landmark forum as being a good way to expand the thought process -- and since the kids things does seem to be quite different then the adult I don't see the harm that's talked about from the things they do in the adult forum. I just feel like somehow my common sense and ability to make a decision on this is strange.
So, in conclusion - I'm not sure why I came back here to share all of this. I do know that part of my thought process makes me feel like I've been brainwashed and I've never taken the Forum!???
Re: Kids and Landmark?
Posted by:
nettie
()
Date: May 11, 2008 09:26PM
I urge you again to have a look at my video on youtube. You find a link i a previous post on this thread.
Show it to your mentor friend and your kids.
You are dealing with an evil entity. LM destroys people. Some good can come out of participation - that is why it is so hard to just say NO.
Get out of there.
Usually people do the forum and are pretty much ok after it - even though they may be acting strangly for a while. They will go back to their normal self. But if you delve to deeply and take more courses you may end up in a very uncomfortable situation where your lives may be disrupted.
Save your kids from this ... just say NO - we choose to end our participation
good luck,
nettie
ex landmark introduction leader who has turned on landmark using his knowledge against them
PS I mean no harm to people but I am obliged to do what I can to warn people
Show it to your mentor friend and your kids.
You are dealing with an evil entity. LM destroys people. Some good can come out of participation - that is why it is so hard to just say NO.
Get out of there.
Usually people do the forum and are pretty much ok after it - even though they may be acting strangly for a while. They will go back to their normal self. But if you delve to deeply and take more courses you may end up in a very uncomfortable situation where your lives may be disrupted.
Save your kids from this ... just say NO - we choose to end our participation
good luck,
nettie
ex landmark introduction leader who has turned on landmark using his knowledge against them
PS I mean no harm to people but I am obliged to do what I can to warn people
Re: Kids and Landmark?
Posted by:
Enviro_Cop
()
Date: May 11, 2008 09:33PM
Mom1313
I am reading your post and am in complete disbelief as to WHY you would allow your children to be exposed to this. Landmark has been well documented to be destructive to families. There are red flags all over the place.
Would you allow your children to attend a “forum” conducted by a person who had been convicted of drug trafficking, and being a sexual predator? With the explanation that “oh I really only do those things to adults………… your kids will be fine”.
Look how that forum leader manipulated you on the phone. What do think he could do to young and more impressionable minds?
My ex wife is a zombie for Discovery Training in Dallas, and they actively recruit teens. There is a program called the Branabas Project this reportedly based on the Discovery Training seminars.
I guess Its not evil enough for these LGATs to abuse adult minds, now they need to damage children.
EC
I am reading your post and am in complete disbelief as to WHY you would allow your children to be exposed to this. Landmark has been well documented to be destructive to families. There are red flags all over the place.
Would you allow your children to attend a “forum” conducted by a person who had been convicted of drug trafficking, and being a sexual predator? With the explanation that “oh I really only do those things to adults………… your kids will be fine”.
Look how that forum leader manipulated you on the phone. What do think he could do to young and more impressionable minds?
My ex wife is a zombie for Discovery Training in Dallas, and they actively recruit teens. There is a program called the Branabas Project this reportedly based on the Discovery Training seminars.
I guess Its not evil enough for these LGATs to abuse adult minds, now they need to damage children.
EC
Re: Kids and Landmark?
Posted by:
mom1313
()
Date: May 11, 2008 10:34PM
I hear you. I watched the video.
I'm asking myself how in the world can I (a happy, reasonable, educated woman) be so confused on an issue.
1. Why - if I felt ok to take my child back there - did I also feel the need to come to an anti-cult website and post about it?
2. Why did I watch the video and think there wasn't anything relating to the teen forum? Yet I know that you must think that LF was what pushed your friend over the edge. I HEAR your passion - but why did I find myself thinking "it wasn't LF - it just happened that LF was the straw that tipped the camels back" (please take no disrespect in my saying that) - losing someone that way must be horrible!
3. Why even with number 2 being said - do I feel a FEAR about my oldest son ending up in the ADULT forum - (will he be pushed to taking the course by his girlfriend who is doing the teen forum this weekend?) -- Why after watching your video did I feel like that if my son completes the adult forum that HE could end up like your friend?
4. Why - when it seems so many people on this board are smart intellectual, capable people, can they not PROVE the points they are making - I mean back it up with something substantial?
5. Why am I questioning my judgement and my husbands?
6. Am I being brainwashed by LF or am I being brainwashed by buying into what is being posted here?
At this point I am afraid it will do more harm than good to go get my son. We are to be there at 3:30 today. I DO know that the statment "I choose not to participate...." is going to go to that meeting with me.
??????
I'm asking myself how in the world can I (a happy, reasonable, educated woman) be so confused on an issue.
1. Why - if I felt ok to take my child back there - did I also feel the need to come to an anti-cult website and post about it?
2. Why did I watch the video and think there wasn't anything relating to the teen forum? Yet I know that you must think that LF was what pushed your friend over the edge. I HEAR your passion - but why did I find myself thinking "it wasn't LF - it just happened that LF was the straw that tipped the camels back" (please take no disrespect in my saying that) - losing someone that way must be horrible!
3. Why even with number 2 being said - do I feel a FEAR about my oldest son ending up in the ADULT forum - (will he be pushed to taking the course by his girlfriend who is doing the teen forum this weekend?) -- Why after watching your video did I feel like that if my son completes the adult forum that HE could end up like your friend?
4. Why - when it seems so many people on this board are smart intellectual, capable people, can they not PROVE the points they are making - I mean back it up with something substantial?
5. Why am I questioning my judgement and my husbands?
6. Am I being brainwashed by LF or am I being brainwashed by buying into what is being posted here?
At this point I am afraid it will do more harm than good to go get my son. We are to be there at 3:30 today. I DO know that the statment "I choose not to participate...." is going to go to that meeting with me.
??????
Re: Kids and Landmark?
Posted by:
spoony
()
Date: May 12, 2008 01:21AM
Quote
mom1313
I just reread what I've written and feel like it may not be coming across accurately - but there are so many details.
No, I think it's coming across pretty accurately. You had serious misgivings and have been talked round by what sounds like a formidable group of people. This is pretty standard stuff for them as, believe me, they have a lot of practice. The way that they handled your call to the 'mentor' with the kids is evidence that your concerns have been interpreted in a way that serves only Landmark.
Quote
mom1313
I gave the benefit of the doubt that this Leader (alan) could not have known - why should he?
Well, why shouldn't he? Wouldn't you expect someone who was dealing with issues of this nature with your children to have put in the time to understand the background and trained themselves in how to deal with these issues properly? There's nothing that qualifies Forum leaders to be Forum leaders apart from Landmark's own internal criteria, which are unpublished.
Quote
mom1313
since the kids things does seem to be quite different then the adult I don't see the harm that's talked about from the things they do in the adult forum
During my time at Landmark (I lead introductions and coached for a few years) I was always told it's the same syllabus for kids as for adults, it's just that kids soak it in quicker and don't argue back. But even though some adults remain unaffected by the forum, some don't, and I'd now never recommend that anyone play Russian roulette with their mental health by taking Landmark programmes. If there's something you need to deal with then go to a reputable, qualified and accountable therapist.
Re: Kids and Landmark?
Posted by:
patrick-darcy
()
Date: May 13, 2008 08:44AM
Quote
mom1313
Ok - so I feel the need to write what happened after I made my post.
I think I need to give a little history first. We went to a Landmark Tues. night forum with the father of our son's girlfriend. I have to admit that what we heard made a great deal of sense - and our 'mentor' is a respected friend (potential father-in-law to our oldest son). The cost for us was an issue - but we decided to enroll our two younger sons because we thought it could give them some good life tools. I have attended many Zig Ziglar/Robbins etc type training sessions - and since Landmark was offering a 'teen' program I thought 'why not'. I did come home and look around online for Landmark - but found so much 'good' out there that I didn't question it too much. For every one 'bad' site there were seemingly dozens of 'good' sites about the Forum. I do know that both my husband and I had at least one moment where, I think, our common sense told us something wasn't quite right.
So - jumping forward to today. After I posted we received a phone call from the older of our two boys who was attending who said "I want to leave".
Now, there had been issues yesterday (how I got to this site) because one teen boy who was there had told our son that he was in essence planted there to get information to prove landmark is a cult. When he called me and told me this - I came here and checked it out - and immediately called his 'mentor' (our friend). I felt better after that call (we spoke for probably 30-60 minutes0 - and we left it at that. However, a few minutes later I received a call (I was at an appointment by this time) and it went through to my voicemail. About 15 mins after that I was able to return the call to Marlene - 'the Forum Supervisor'. She told me that they had 'already addressed the problem' -- and when I asked her what problem? I was told that they had been made aware of this 'cult' issue and that the Forum 'Leader' was already addressing it - publicly and openly and then began to tell me HOW they had done it. I was LIVID. First, because we were talking about KIDS -- and second because they had not taken the time to talk to me to get the actual details of what had actually transpired in the call to my kids. Lots of phone calls after that - but in the end - our concern was for our kids - and we didn't want them to be singled out any further in a negative way. We decided at that point that we would wait and see how the kids were when we picked them up. When we picked them up last night and heard what actually happened - we were relieved in a sense and also blown away at how inaccurately things had been presented to them. For example - the kids were SURE that "I" was the one who had called in to Landmark and created the ruckus -- because they were told that FOUR parents had called and "ONE MOM IS SO UPSET SHE IS ON HER WAY FROM <insert my state name here> TO PICK UP HER KIDS". I know that I did not make the call and I know that I never said I was on my way to pick up the kids. Both my husband and I questioned that - and went to bed not sure if we were going to send the kids back the next day. We decided - since the kids overall seemed ok - to kind of leave it to whether they wanted to return. They both did want to return. Our 'mentors' kids are also attending (to include my oldest sons gf - although my oldest son has not YET decided to participate himself) -- and I have a great deal of respect for this girl and she assured me that although she didn't feel there was much to learn from the first day - that she was intrigued and was going to go back. Earlier she said she had started to think that she wasn't going to return - but that she felt there might be something more to gain since Friday seemed to be just basic stuff that she understood (as did my kids) - but that some of the kids my have needed those basics. My husband and I felt it very strange at how they reacted to being told about someone being there to expose them as a cult. It seemed haphazard and paranoid almost.
So, back to the phone call. Our son said that "he had talked with the Forum leader" and that the answer to his question - albeit what our son WANTED to hear - knew that at his core - it would go against us as parents. However, he also felt he had gotten 'all there is to get' out of the Forum. Now - we were REALLY confused. We called Landmark to tell them that our son wanted to come home and that we would be there to get him as soon as we could make the drive back (1.5 to 2 hours) depending on traffic. Before we hit the beltway - our son called back and said he had talked with our friend (the mentor) and had decided to stay. We engaged him in conversation - because his issue he had - where the forum leader gave him the answer he wanted (let me explain that as I can - not real comfortable throwing personal info out there) - but my son's biological father is a psychotic. My son has not had contact with him in a long time (and when he was younger - the courts took away any rights to him because of the things this man had done to him).....but as any child -- he wishes with all his heart this wasn't the case. The Forum leader had told him that "It isn't up to your father to contact you - YOU need to call him --- YOU need to find a way to visit him....) -- I was overly concerned that any adult would tell a child something like this - again - without having all the information. I believe - under more normal circumstances -- there is some truth to reaching out and creating relationships ---- but in this case - it could be lethal - emotionally - and maybe even physically! I gave the benefit of the doubt that this Leader (alan) could not have known - why should he? However, after having that little bit of time to think about it -- I questioned my son on why the sudden change to stay. We continued driving. We ended up on a three way call between us, our son and the mentor friend. I found myself, without realizing it, about 3/4 of the way through the conversation changing my mind! I did like what the Mentor was saying - and went back to this being more about my son 'wanting' this situation with his bio father that he was walking away from the Forum because he had realized to complete the Forum - he would be taught how to 'complete' this relationship - without needing to even contact this person. Our son's ultimate decision was to leave. By the time we got there however - I found myself furious that he was leaving?
The next hour was not so good - a 2 hour conversation with all of us and the mentor. Our biggest concern was that our son had only gotten bits of this 'training' and that he was 'armed and dangerous' because he didn't have it all ---- therefore was abusing what he knew. To go into all the details would take too long -but I mention this because my husband and I went back and forth -- from He needs to be told he doesn't have it all down - and 'shut down' in a sense -- to us pushing him on why he should return and finish the weekend. At one point - I felt like "I" had been brainwashed - and was watching my husband go back and forth from hanging up on the Mentor -- to putting the phone back on speaker for the mentor to talk to our son again - and then not 2 minutes into what he was telling our son -- having that 'wait a minute - you're not saying what you just said you were going to tell him to me' ------and taking the phone again. Back and forth. Now, my husband and I are smart, educated people. This mentor is a FRIEND. A RESPECTED friend. This was CRAZY! There was a lot more going on - but in the end we were convinced that our son NOT completing the Forum was where the problem ended. Our son didn't want to go back. We were ok with that. The end. Part of us is disappointed that he didn't finish because I believe there is a possibility that he could have gotten some tools to help with issues. I didn't like that he had only gotten part of it - and was already using it incorrectly. For example - he told us that when we were talking to him that we were only expressing our opinions - and that just because we feel something is inappropriate or wrong doesn't mean it is because it is only wrong if he BELIEVES it is wrong. Everything is only perception. Yep, he got the first part of the course rather well -- but without the rest of it - was not implementing it correctly.
We picked up our younger son who seems ok. He talked openly about what they did during the day and his only complaint was that the Forum Leader didn't really allow him to participate much (he had been an active participant the day before). Both boys let us read the letters they had written to "Mr Annonymous" -- so on that note - we haven't felt that the kids were being led down a path that didn't include parental involvement. My son's gf however -- is when I think my common sense clicked in again. She just didn't seem herself when we saw her. She is usually happy and bubbly and last night - she seemed distant and far away. Really weird. Our son did come home last night with 'sign up papers' - but said they were told simply if your folks are interested in taking another class - or if you are -- this is what you need. He said it wasn't a big deal and that there wasn't any pressure put on him regarding it.
Oldest son was done with LF -- younger son wanted to complete today. Yes, there have been some things happen but we are still so confused about it all - and our younger son seems to be truly enjoying himself -- no signs of him struggling with anything - nor is he babbling blather and ecstatic. Just his normal self.
Now, what led me here this morning. When I awoke - I found a letter on our counter written by my older son stating that he had realized he'd made a horrible mistake and that he would be very appreciative if we would let him return to the forum today. ???? Where did that come from? My husband - who had been up much earlier in order to take our younger son to day 3 - had written him back explaining that to return today - would not be the right thing as he missed most all of day 2 - and wouldn't be prepared for what they would be doing today- in essence the same thing we were saying yesterday -- that only parts of any kind of training like this is dangerous - like being told how to turn the ignition in the car - but now knowing how to drive it - and someone putting you out on the freeway and telling you to drive.
I just reread what I've written and feel like it may not be coming across accurately - but there are so many details. When I read what I wrote I was thinking - if I was reading this from someone else - I would be going WHY did you take your younger son back? But you had to be here and you'd have to have a more complete story to probably really understand. My only issue right now is that I feel so 50-50. Part of me does ask WHY I sent my son back. The other side of me sees the BASICS of the landmark forum as being a good way to expand the thought process -- and since the kids things does seem to be quite different then the adult I don't see the harm that's talked about from the things they do in the adult forum. I just feel like somehow my common sense and ability to make a decision on this is strange.
So, in conclusion - I'm not sure why I came back here to share all of this. I do know that part of my thought process makes me feel like I've been brainwashed and I've never taken the Forum!???
actually i was wondering the same thing after reading your post. your children by the way have indeed been mentally changed by
landmark. in the future if u refuse to attend the forum your children will consider u an outsider and will have a tendency to prefer
landmark people over u.
that might be the push u need to get u to take the forum also.
and by the way your children will become recruiters for landmark. they will mention it to their friends and will soon if they
havent already have a tendency to refuse friendship with people who say no to the forum.
u just opened up a pandora's box.
keep us posted.
Let go your heart. Let go your head. And feel it now.
...............................................................david gray
Re: Kids and Landmark?
Posted by:
nettie
()
Date: May 17, 2008 03:49PM
Quote
mom1313
I hear you. I watched the video.
I'm asking myself how in the world can I (a happy, reasonable, educated woman) be so confused on an issue.
1. Why - if I felt ok to take my child back there - did I also feel the need to come to an anti-cult website and post about it?
----------- dont worry too much about this...you are just going through a process - you will come out of it stronger.
2. Why did I watch the video and think there wasn't anything relating to the teen forum? Yet I know that you must think that LF was what pushed your friend over the edge. I HEAR your passion - but why did I find myself thinking "it wasn't LF - it just happened that LF was the straw that tipped the camels back" (please take no disrespect in my saying that) - losing someone that way must be horrible!
---------- well if you are in the landmark thought system it becomes a strain on yur mind to think that it is not all good.
3. Why even with number 2 being said - do I feel a FEAR about my oldest son ending up in the ADULT forum - (will he be pushed to taking the course by his girlfriend who is doing the teen forum this weekend?) -- Why after watching your video did I feel like that if my son completes the adult forum that HE could end up like your friend?
----- fear is a natural response - when I first started reading about landmark on the internet I as very scared - especially when I saw the similarities with Scientology.
4. Why - when it seems so many people on this board are smart intellectual, capable people, can they not PROVE the points they are making - I mean back it up with something substantial?
------ I don't see how you can say we cannot prove our point of view. We are just telling our side o the story. Why should we hav to prove it. It is part of free speech - which landmark does not like when it turns against them.
5. Why am I questioning my judgement and my husbands?
------- try to find a way to relax...there really is a good way out of this. Most people don't end up killing themselves. Even if you continue with landmark you will be OK.
6. Am I being brainwashed by LF or am I being brainwashed by buying into what is being posted here?
-------- We are not trying to brainwash you. But it is hard to know what is going on when landmark tries to tell you that what is going on on the internet is just rackets and winning formulas and what not. Which it is if you look at it from a landmark perspective. In the normal world it is just people talking about their experience about landmark which is their subjective viewpoint.
At this point I am afraid it will do more harm than good to go get my son. We are to be there at 3:30 today. I DO know that the statment "I choose not to participate...." is going to go to that meeting with me.
---- good luck let us know what happened
??????
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